"Who are you calling 'nebulous'?" May presses testy EU for Brexit help

[My Thai Life]

as the bibulous said to the nebulous for the benefit of the credulous 

[welovesundaysatspace]

42 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

 

The big problem nowadays is the online "echo chamber" where people immerse themselves in views that reflect their own. And then they get aggressive when they are confronted with different views. You can see it every day on this forum.

The big problem nowadays is the online “fake chamber” where people

immerse themselves in conspiracy theories and other lies. And then they get aggressive when they are confronted with the truth and the fact that a lie is not a “different view” but a lie. You can see it every day on this forum (for a start, look for posts claiming that no one can for sure tell that The Guardian contains facts). 

[My Thai Life]

@onemorefarang

I appreciate your reply.

 

I am a Brit, but I've lived and worked outside of the UK for so long I don't really feel particularly British. I wasn't offered a vote because I am such a long term expat, and that's fine with me.

 

I would have been happy to support leave or stay. But what I cannot support is the attempt to undermine democracy by some of the people who lost the vote. And no amount of "remainer" posturing about this is going to change my disgust at these attempts.

 

By the way, I can't agree that all the news outlets report the same basic facts, even on key isssues. This possibly sounds arrogant, but many of the journalists are in my opinion completely out of their depth on some of these topics anyway.

 

A lot US citizens seem to feel that supporting Brexit is like supporting Trump. It isn't, despite some of the superficial parallels.

[dunroaming]

10 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Personally I look at several sources. The problem is obviously always: Who can you trust to write accurate information?

Forgive me for cherry picking one line from your post.  I also look at several sources and I am very aware that facts are often confused with opinion.  It always amuses me when articles are quoted on TV as if they are gospel.  I have a friend who works for the Daily Mail (although in the sports section) and he does follow the party line.  That is until we open the second bottle of wine and then his social conscience sometimes get's the better of him and his true colours are exposed.

 

 

[Thingamabob]

Either she is out of her depth, or she is compromised. Either way, Britain needs a Leave PM, and without delay.

[nauseus]

3 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

If it would be so easy then why does the UK not have an agreement with the EU already?

It is obviously not easy. It's not easy because there are thousands of different issues which are connected with each other.

It's impossible to not want one thing but to keep all the other things.

May tried to find a compromise and it seems that will go nowhere.

Do you really think crashing out will be all in all good for the UK? Maybe some things will be better but hundreds of others will be worse. Is it worth it?

And where will all those nurses and others come from? Because there are obviously not enough British people who want to work in those jobs.

The UK does not have an agreement with the EU already because May is a remoaner, a crap dancer, does not know how to negotiate, and has been can-kicking for almost 2.5 years.

[nauseus]

59 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

The big problem nowadays is the online “fake chamber” where people

immerse themselves in conspiracy theories and other lies. And then they get aggressive when they are confronted with the truth and the fact that a lie is not a “different view” but a lie. You can see it every day on this forum (for a start, look for posts claiming that no one can for sure tell that The Guardian contains facts). 

Spoken like a true expert on the matter.

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, My Thai Life said:

as the bibulous said to the nebulous for the benefit of the credulous 

How absolutely fabulous! 

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Personally I look at several sources. The problem is obviously always: Who can you trust to write accurate information?

It's obvious that The Guardian are against Brexit. But I think they still do a good job of reporting facts and different options.

And they show clearly what is news and what is an opinion.

I also read the BBC and other international media. And as far as I see they all agree on the basic facts.

I don't look at facebook or any of the Murdoch media for obvious reasons.

 

I am not from the UK but I follow Brexit everyday because it's interesting. Like Trump and what happens around him is interesting.

Lots of people have different opinions and that's perfectly ok.

What I don't like is when people make important decisions based on fantasies, unconfirmed promises, etc.

It seems lots of remainers can clearly argue why they want to remain in the EU. Many of them also see clearly that the EU is far away from perfect - but still the best of the available option.

But is seems many brexiters just want to leave because all about the EU is bad and they want to be independent and all that.

Will the UK be ever completely independent? They can only be 100% independent if they don't do any business with anybody else in the world. Because the moment they do business with others then there are regulations.

If the UK leaves the EU and makes a trade agreement with the US, what will happen? Will the UK be independent? Or do they have to follow the rules which the US sets if they want to trade?

 

It's easy to dream about freedom and independence - but the reality are lots of compromises with the rest of the world.

The rest of the world - comprised of independent countries.

[tomacht8]

6 hours ago, worgeordie said:

Just get out,give them nothing,join the WTO ,job done.

OK things might be tough for a time,BUT we will bounce

back.

regards Worgeordie

Good to know what trade under WTO really means. it is worth reading these two articles to get a better understanding about the problems.

 

https://theconversation.com/no-deal-seven-reasons-why-a-wto-only-brexit-would-be-bad-for-britain-102009

 

https://www.ft.com/content/4f0ea43e-a77e-11e8-926a-7342fe5e173f

[OneMoreFarang]

30 minutes ago, nauseus said:

The UK does not have an agreement with the EU already because May is a remoaner, a crap dancer, does not know how to negotiate, and has been can-kicking for almost 2.5 years.

So why was she not replaced by someone competent in her own party a long time ago? Would Boris have negotiated a better deal? Or all the others? It seems most of them know that it is a lot easier to criticize someone else than doing it better themselves. 

As far as I see May is still there because they have nobody else who could do a better job. 

[KiChakayan]

7 hours ago, Spidey said:

The majority of the countries shown on the map are members of the British Commonwealth and the majority of those still have H.M. The Queen as their head. Just a name change from "Empire" to "Commonwealth", same same but a bit friendlier!

Yessir, you may have noted the small red dot at the bottom left. My point here is that there must be a great number of Brexiteers fantasising some "Falkland 2" sequel, much, much bigger and better.

[Spidey]

4 minutes ago, KiChakayan said:

Yessir, you may have noted the small red dot at the bottom left. My point here is that there must be a great number of Brexiteers fantasising some "Falkland 2" sequel, much, much bigger and better.

Yes, I noted that chunks of the US used to be part of the Empire, I assume that this is the "Falklands 2" that you're referring to.

 

Coming at ya America, we want our tea money back.

[nauseus]

14 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

So why was she not replaced by someone competent in her own party a long time ago? Would Boris have negotiated a better deal? Or all the others? It seems most of them know that it is a lot easier to criticize someone else than doing it better themselves. 

As far as I see May is still there because they have nobody else who could do a better job. 

Fair question, which I wish I knew the real answer to. The main problem is that the majority of Tories are really pro remain, so not enough support for a leaver-leader. Just a pity that they couldn't have said that in their GE manifestos. 

Edited December 15, 2018 by nauseus

[nauseus]

28 minutes ago, nauseus said:

The rest of the world - comprised of independent countries.

You can laugh but it's actually true. 

[puipuitom]

9 hours ago, malagateddy said:

By not paying their bills?? According to the House of Lords..no bill is due to be paid in event of NO DEAL.
You could also contact the QC..think name is Martin Howe re the " bill ".

Then stop also immediately with all pensions etc to Britisch MP's in the EU parlement, etc. Mr Nigal Farage did not miss even one meeting to learn how to rob as much as possible for his pension. 

[Spidey]

11 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

As far as I see May is still there because they have nobody else who could do a better job. 

Nobody else wants the job. Brexit is the kiss of death for the sitting Prime Minister, no matter what the outcome.

 

The moment that Brexit is concluded, it will be "the night of the long knives". There's a long queue just waiting to push the blade in up to the hilt.

[OneMoreFarang]

4 minutes ago, nauseus said:

You can laugh but it's actually true. 

Many countries are members of associations of multiple countries. And the reason is obviously that they are stronger in a group compared to doing everything alone.

And many issues can't be done by single countries. The internet has almost no borders, this is just one example of something which can't be controlled or regulated alone. And in this case I thing i.e. about child abuse on the internet and other crimes.

Trade agreements of countries or groups of countries make things easier. I.e. now Thailand makes agreements with the EU and not with 27 independent countries. A win/win situation for everybody.

Obviously there are always some things which individual countries would like to do different. And some things they still can do independent of the group. But not everything. It's a compromise and it will never be perfect for everybody. But probably good for many.

[puipuitom]

8 hours ago, DoctorG said:

Sure, a short period of discomfort, but after that a stronger, more independent, Britain.

Of course, little Brittain with 65 million inhabitants can negociate better conditions as the EU with 525 mln. And… seafreight over the ocean is a lot lower as just crossing the Channel with goods already on pallets in the lorries.

In that "short period of discomfort" the Btirish for sure will find new markets for their exports and imports. exports go into the EU, and 53 % of their imports come from the EU in 2017.

Last: quite some British companies are already building up their "pied a terre" in Europe. In Netherlands, nearly no empty office space as available, and in the UK, all cooled and frozen store capacity is used.

[malagateddy]

Then stop also immediately with all pensions etc to Britisch MP's in the EU parlement, etc. Mr Nigal Farage did not miss even one meeting to learn how to rob as much as possible for his pension. 

I think that the UK Govt will obviously pay UK MEP's pensions[emoji6]

Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[OneMoreFarang]

2 minutes ago, puipuitom said:

Of course, little Brittain with 65 million inhabitants can negociate better conditions as the EU with 525 mln. And… seafreight over the ocean is a lot lower as just crossing the Channel with goods already on pallets in the lorries.

In that "short period of discomfort" the Btirish for sure will find new markets for their exports and imports. exports go into the EU, and 53 % of their imports come from the EU in 2017.

Last: quite some British companies are already building up their "pied a terre" in Europe. In Netherlands, nearly no empty office space as available, and in the UK, all cooled and frozen store capacity is used.

Sounds like logic. I am afraid most brexiters are not able or willing to act according to logic.

But at least you tried. ???? 

[puipuitom]

7 hours ago, Pedrogaz said:

Trade under WTO rules....average 3.3% tariff.

At average… the weight of an animal in the London zoo = 1.234 kg... suiting… none.

The EU, where 47% of the British export goes to.. has especially for items they produce themselves, quite higher tariffs.

For instance: (Welsh) meat: € 1,495 per kg. Cars: 10%. You think, Nissin will continue to produce cars in Sutherland ? Or use a closed Ford facility in... Genk - Belgium ? See taric consultancy  http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/dds2/taric/taric_consultation.jsp?Lang=en

[dunroaming]

2 hours ago, Thingamabob said:

Either she is out of her depth, or she is compromised. Either way, Britain needs a Leave PM, and without delay.

And yet two hundred MP's think otherwise and that is democracy.

Edited December 15, 2018 by dunroaming

[dunroaming]

1 hour ago, puipuitom said:

Of course, little Brittain with 65 million inhabitants can negociate better conditions as the EU with 525 mln. And… seafreight over the ocean is a lot lower as just crossing the Channel with goods already on pallets in the lorries.

In that "short period of discomfort" the Btirish for sure will find new markets for their exports and imports. exports go into the EU, and 53 % of their imports come from the EU in 2017.

Last: quite some British companies are already building up their "pied a terre" in Europe. In Netherlands, nearly no empty office space as available, and in the UK, all cooled and frozen store capacity is used.

I have my business "pied a terre" lined up in Holland as well.  Did it about four months ago but I still hope I won't need it!

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Many countries are members of associations of multiple countries. And the reason is obviously that they are stronger in a group compared to doing everything alone.

And many issues can't be done by single countries. The internet has almost no borders, this is just one example of something which can't be controlled or regulated alone. And in this case I thing i.e. about child abuse on the internet and other crimes.

Trade agreements of countries or groups of countries make things easier. I.e. now Thailand makes agreements with the EU and not with 27 independent countries. A win/win situation for everybody.

Obviously there are always some things which individual countries would like to do different. And some things they still can do independent of the group. But not everything. It's a compromise and it will never be perfect for everybody. But probably good for many.

Associations are fine...the UK is part of many...but they are no comparison to a centralised political union run by bureaucrats who have no responsibility to a broad electorate.  

[tebee]

2 hours ago, nauseus said:

The UK does not have an agreement with the EU already because May is a remoaner, a crap dancer, does not know how to negotiate, and has been can-kicking for almost 2.5 years.

... because the U.K. had given no serious thought to the question of transitional arrangements until it was too late – precisely because of the fantasies propagated that this would be one of the easiest “trade deals in human history” and all would be definitively tied up legally by exit day – by the time they actually did focus, London was urgently begging for what is now pejoratively termed the “vassal state” transition, precisely because it knew that it could not be ready for a post Brexit equilibrium state by March 2019.

 

All the EU had to do was to ensure that the transition hinged off a Withdrawal Treaty containing a permanent legal all-weather backstop, and it knew that the U.K. had no alternative but to sign such a Withdrawal Agreement.

[Dumbastheycome]

I keep getting  recall images  of  "Dad's Army" when I read this  guff!

 

[My Thai Life]

23 minutes ago, tebee said:

precisely because of the fantasies propagated that this would be one of the easiest “trade deals in human history” and all would be definitively tied up legally by exit day

Well it should be the easiest trade deal in history, because all UK/EU standards are in 100% alignment. And this aligment of standards is the thing that takes the longest time to achieve in FTAs.

 

Had May followed her Lancaster House line and negotiated on this basis with Tusk and Barnier's zero tariff zero quota FTA proposal we would be in a mutually beneficial situation now.

 

May's duplicity with Chequers and the EU's weaponising of the Irish border are the two principal specific reasons for the breakdown.

 

By the way, see the Irish Times for the truth about the Irish border and WTO

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/wto-says-its-rules-would-not-force-eu-or-uk-to-erect-hard-irish-border-1.3710136

 

The most legitimate approach now would be to switch back to the FTA track via a managed transition or via WTO (aka managed no-deal).

 

 

Edited December 15, 2018 by My Thai Life

[wilcopops]

10 hours ago, Topdoc said:

Well, that's just your opinion and I am sure you are not even British.

Only a Brexiteer could be so blinkered as to miss the irony here!

[dunroaming]

We are all victims of the spin.  What used to be facts and justified arguments have been replaced by spin and speculations.  Both sides here keep coming up with examples to justify their arguments but until we have actually experienced the reality of the effects of Brexit neither side will be persuaded that they are wrong.  So no matter what any of us say (that includes the politicians) we are all p*ssing in the wind.