Latest from USA Embassy as of 14 December

[mikebike]

2 hours ago, Banana7 said:

Many existing visa/extension holders may not be aware of the change that numerous Embassies in Thailand will no longer issue "affidavits of stated income". What will happen to those uniformed of the change, who waited until their regular renewal time in 2019?. It will be a big shock realizing there will be no new "extension of stay", and they have missed the "seasoning period" for the 800K.

Ignorance of the law(s) is no excuse... better be on top of it or move.

[usacb500biker]

2019 all expats comming to Thailand will deposit 800,000B, making the thai govt. and Banks extremely Happy....the broke Expats will be long gone or on Overstay. Nov. 2019 a women with a gambling sickness (bank employee) stole 1,000,000B...Vist me in Cambodia...See Yea...15 yrs....TH. Trucking on down the ROAD.....Its been FUN.....

[Pattaya46]

7 minutes ago, mikebike said:

Ignorance of the law(s) is no excuse... better be on top of it or move.

Rather unfair. These people very probably know the laws and Thai Immigration regulations. It will be a double chock for them if they find they are not able to continue to live in Thailand, AND if they find that the reason is a decision of their own embassy ! 

[DrJack54]

28 minutes ago, mikebike said:

Ignorance of the law(s) is no excuse... better be on top of it or move.

Maybe bit harsh. I realize this next comment in not about "income letter", however its meant to show that many many expats don't know a lot about all the rules/options. Last Friday I was talking to guy in Saigon. His reason for coming to Saigon for ONE night was to obtain a new visa exempt next day at fon mueang. He had entered on VE but needed few extra weeks before returning to AU. Currently staying in Rayong. He was NOT aware he could extend his VE one time. So he has paid maybe 3k baht air flights. Nights accomm. Expenses and visa 75usd. Thaivisa readers not a lot more about visa options than majority of xpats. Think this change by embassies will have bigger shockwave than we are thinking.

Edited December 19, 2018 by DrJack54
Error

[gaviny]

Yesterday at the Oz Embassy a person in front of me also had a long conversation with the notarizer and I could hear him saying that the Embassy was wrong in denying a Aussie citizen a basic right amongst other points.

Sent from my Redmi Note 6 Pro using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Moonlover]

1 hour ago, Jeffrey346 said:

17 hours ago, marcus111 said:

if you are genuine and receive an income from your said affidavit as submitted to said embassy surely you have 800k thousand available to do it with truth.

If you had 800k sitting in your Thai bank account, an affidavit or income letter wouldn't be required.

[ThaiWai]

The income letter was expensive and a hassle to get (even at outreach).  Now that it won't be available Thai Imm might start taking less as proof of income (already reports of this). Point is, you are never gonna get the Embassy to change their mind and you don't even know how this will impact you fully yet. There is no way to know which way the wind will blow tomorrow for expats here so go have another cocktail and watch the sunset into the sea or have some pretty young thing sit on your face or do whatever it is you do to relax.

[oldrunner]

Way back when, retired Airmen and lower ranking Sergeants retirement pay was barely enough to pay their mia-noi and bar bills. When it came time to get the certification letter from the US Embassy all they had to do was lie, as in not tell the truth, about their income. Put the right number on the Embassy form, raise your right hand and swear that the amount is true...bingo, show the letter to immigration and you are good for another 90 days or year.

There is also a form 1199 issued by the DOD that shows monthly salary as well as deductions. Of course, I am reaching the age of being senile so I could be totally wrong.

[Thaidream]

The Embassy response as to an explanation was answered in the typical  way so as to give no real . credible answer.  I would like to know who actually raised the issue first and if the Embassy ever provided an explanation of the fact that a citizen who lies is subject to a criminal prosecution and is a felony.  Did the Embassy actually explain the difficulty in going back to the source and verifying the info from the source?  did the Embassy ever  inform Thai Imm they can refer a citizen who  they find has lied back to the Embassy for an investigation?  Did the Embassy ever state their position but  offer to continue the letter with further negotiation?

 

IMHO-  there could have been a negotiation in which the Embassy Letter  survived if the Embassy was willing to negotiate this with the Thai Imm.  It appears they ( UK, USA, AU) saw this issue as a good way to get rid of something that they really didn't want to do; was time consuming and in their mind, could be  replaced by Thai Imm actually accepting money in the bank or looking at  pension letters themselves. I seriously doubt they fully understand the real impact on many thousands of their citizens who have the income but not the 800K.

 

I do appreciate the OP for pushing the issue and getting a verbal promise that the Embassy will intervene to help it's citizens in the event of problems with a particular  Imm office.

 

I did send the Embassy 3 Emails attempting to provide different ideas on how the letter could still be issued but was rebuffed. Based upon the current situation, I will be going next week for my Embassy Letter and I expect it to be valid for 6 months hence.  However,  I do have a Plan B, C, D and E but if any problems with the Embassy Letter- I will be on the phone to the Embassy taking them up on the promise to 'ease the transition'.

 

Some of the comments the Embassy official made to the OP were unkind and not very diplomatic - these officials need to remember they exist because  of us- the people and our tax dollars .

 

 

[Mavideol]

3 hours ago, Jeffrey346 said:

I have tried contacting the FBU via email numerous times.  Other than the automated response that states they will respond in  5 days... They never respond.

I posted about it..... have been waiting for the past 7  (and 5 days ) months... we can die any time, they don't give a damn, we already pay our taxes now we are just a burdensome

[Benmart]

19 hours ago, marcus111 said:

Totally agree with dddave.

Abuse by getting income affidavits is I believe is wide spread. I do the 800k baht requirement every year as I like to be honest and in all honesty if you are genuine and receive an income from your said affidavit as submitted to said embassy surely you have 800k thousand available to do it with truth.

Good to see the Thai authorities stopping the stupidity of these so called income letters.

 

Simple belief that wide-spread abuse of the income verification is not based on verifiable research.

 

I have used the income cerification these past five years and could provide documentation to account for every dollar claimed.

 

I am concerned only about my honesty, and won't speculate on the honesty of those I have never met, or have any business commenting about.

 

That being said, next June I will deposit the 80k baht in a Thai bank in order to remain here.

[NanLaew]

4 hours ago, JLCrab said:

If you look at the current Police Order at 2.22 it lists both the 800K baht in the bank method and the 'evidence' of 65K baht monthly income method with no preference shown for either method.

Yes. But quoting (again) what is written in the police order versus the stark reality that so far, there is absolutely no evidence of the monthly income method ever being successfully accepted by any Immigration office makes re-stating (again) their equal standing as written all a wee bit pointless (again).

[Thaidream]

39 minutes ago, Benmart said:

imple belief that wide-spread abuse of the income verification is not based on verifiable research.

I agree- I have been doing the income affidavit for many years- never lied- always carried backup proof. Every one I know who uses the income method  also have never lied.  However, I know several who used the money in the bank method and didn't have the money or the income.

 

If Thai Imm- believes there was widespread lying- they could have asked for several items to backup the letter and when it could not be produced- decline the extension and if a USA citizen =send a notice to the FBI office at the US Embassy.

[davhend25]

4 hours ago, Jeffrey346 said:

That is not necessarily true. Many people have the income but not 800K required in cash.

Yes..yes..yes... and I am one of them....I have almost double the 65,000 baht monthly income requirement, but not 800,000 I can park in a Thai bank account earning very little interest. Jeffrey346 makes a very valid point here!!

 

[NanLaew]

4 hours ago, Banana7 said:

Many existing visa/extension holders may not be aware of the change that numerous Embassies in Thailand will no longer issue "affidavits of stated income". What will happen to those uniformed of the change, who waited until their regular renewal time in 2019?. It will be a big shock realizing there will be no new "extension of stay", and they have missed the "seasoning period" for the 800K.

Agreed. There should be a regular, TV revenue-generating stream of "OMG! What can I do?!" posts for at least another 6 months.

 

In the interim, the real test will be if anyone manages to come up with how to legally avoid the bear-trap that Thai Immigration has set.

[assayer]

20 hours ago, marcus111 said:

Totally agree with dddave.

Abuse by getting income affidavits is I believe is wide spread. I do the 800k baht requirement every year as I like to be honest and in all honesty if you are genuine and receive an income from your said affidavit as submitted to said embassy surely you have 800k thousand available to do it with truth.

Good to see the Thai authorities stopping the stupidity of these so called income letters.

 

Sorry Marcus you are living in a dream world !!!!

 

[assayer]

6 hours ago, NanLaew said:

Why are your're panties showing?

 

The 800k (or 400k) in the bank has been the gold standard for income proof since they whole show kicked off. The proof of monthly income was never the 'easy alternative' and the income letters that were accepted... sorry, still being accepted by Thai Immigration (subject to full verification caveats) have been after-the-fact, bolt-ons to how the Immigration office assesses income. The lump-sum has thus always been the preferred method.

 

Nobody is putting you down or calling you on being dishonest so no need to get all riled up. Another member has simply and realistically suggested that the income letter, affidavit, statutory declaration, etc., has been one of the easiest ways to facilitate growing levels of dishonesty and fraud and ultimately break the otherwise quite acceptable immigration laws in Thailand. Yes, it's a huge inconvenience but it will ultimately make a certain demographic take stock of how precarious the funding of their lives in LOS can be and hopefully they come up with a viable work around. Better to find that out sooner than later.

Abuse by getting income affidavits is I believe is wide spread. I do the 800k baht requirement every year as I like to be honest and in all honesty if you are genuine and receive an income from your said affidavit as submitted to said embassy surely you have 800k thousand available to do it with truth.

 

Sounds to me like he is calling those who don't have the cash in a bank dishonest.

[NanLaew]

4 hours ago, sumrit said:

But it doesn't, and never has, shown proof of income. All it does is show a certain amount of money sitting in a bank account for a certain length of time that is available if needed.

Correct. It's a lump sum that's there, in your Thai bank account if and when you need it. Proof of income is only needed when you don't have a lump sum that's there, in your Thai bank account if and when you may need it.

 

4 hours ago, sumrit said:

In itself, it doesn't show you have an adequate income to actually live in Thailand.

The 30 or 60 days the lump sum sits untouched in the bank is considered proof of the applicants ability to 'live in Thailand' without using it.

 

4 hours ago, sumrit said:

The only way to prove that would be to prove you've used the 800k for living expenses throughout the year then replenish it every year, three months before your extension is due.

This is exactly what many people do. They draw down on it during the first 9 months but ensure that it is topped up to the minimum required before the seasoning period kicks in. The police order doesn't care if you do that or not, as long as it's all there for the requisite amount of time.

 

4 hours ago, sumrit said:

Either that or show you have a separate income you use for monthly expenses..........but then, in effect, you're using the 65/40k baht/ month income option.

But why would you want to do that? They're not interested? For the time being, they only want to see that the lump sum has been in your Thai bank account for right amount of time. Despite being clearly stated in the police order, the 'monthly income' option is, for the time being, off the table and that won't change until Thai Immigration decides otherwise.

 

4 hours ago, sumrit said:

Far from being 'The Gold Standard' on proof of income you're suggesting, it's used by many expats who haven't got an adequate income to qualify legally so they pay an agent to 'manipulate' the 800k baht option with backhanders to obtain their extension. 

Despite the undeniable fact that it has been mutually abused by dishonest foreigners and corrupt Immigration officers, it is still the only acceptable method of proving your ability to sustain your life in Thailand for 12 months without recourse to government funds and/or working illegally. I would think that the percentage committing fraud and staying illegally is less than those who are sticking the lump sum in the bank and basically not worrying too much about it. After this exercise is complete, the numbers staying illegally will probably be much less than it is now.

[DrJack54]

2 hours ago, gaviny said:

Yesterday at the Oz Embassy a person in front of me also had a long conversation with the notarizer and I could hear him saying that the Embassy was wrong in denying a Aussie citizen a basic right amongst other points.

Sent from my Redmi Note 6 Pro using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Who said "the embassy was wrong...." The embassy staff or the expat? I'm bit surprised by all the comments in many threads about that the embassies are wrong. Lot of staff at the embassy are clerks. They are not in position to verify anything. Don't have expertise or authority. The income method with affidavit was a nonesence from outset. 

[Pattaya46]

4 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

// The income method with affidavit was a nonesence from outset. 

Sure, so the question is: Why did US Embassy started (many years ago) to provide such an affidavit for Extension purpose when - clearly - it didn't match the Thai Immigration requirement of "letter verifying your income"...? 

[NanLaew]

2 hours ago, DrJack54 said:

He was NOT aware he could extend his VE one time. So he has paid maybe 3k baht air flights. Nights accomm. Expenses and visa 75usd.

But, if only momentarily, it did get him out of the comfortable Thailand rut afforded by Thailand's rather lax immigration enforcement that many think is their right. Plus, if he really has pitched his Thai tent in Rayong, he probably had a lot more fun in Saigon.

[NanLaew]

2 hours ago, gaviny said:

Yesterday at the Oz Embassy a person in front of me also had a long conversation with the notarizer and I could hear him saying that the Embassy was wrong in denying a Aussie citizen a basic right amongst other points.

Sent from my Redmi Note 6 Pro using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

We probably know who it was too. Posted at great length on earlier threads about speaking to the government back home. Another one who doesn't realize his legal rights as an Aussie means farkall in LOS.

[NanLaew]

2 hours ago, Thaidream said:

I seriously doubt they fully understand the real impact on many thousands of their citizens who have the income but not the 800K. 

I seriously doubt you have any idea of how really minuscule the cumulative 'resident' old foreigners contribution to the Thai GDP is.

 

2 hours ago, Thaidream said:

Some of the comments the Embassy official made to the OP were unkind and not very diplomatic - these officials need to remember they exist because  of us- the people and our tax dollars .

The tax dollars contributed by the cumulative 'resident' old foreigners in Thailand to their respective nation's coffers is probably about the same amount as they contribute to the Thai taxman.

[DrJack54]

13 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

But, if only momentarily, it did get him out of the comfortable Thailand rut afforded by Thailand's rather lax immigration enforcement that many think is their right. Plus, if he really has pitched his Thai tent in Rayong, he probably had a lot more fun in Saigon.

Was not point of my post. (BTW he is 72 and came back to visit his Thai (elderly) gf. Point of post is that many farang don't consult Thaivisa. Hence are not aware of changes etc. For every expat reading these forums there are sooooo many that do not and might be surprised when they go to embassy for affidavit next year. 

[NanLaew]

Knowing if more people used affidavits or statutory declarations than those using visa agents, corrupt bank and immigration officials and non-existent lump sums to make fraudulent income claims may be of great importance to some but it's all pretty pointless IMHO. They make the rules and, as guests, we are expected to comply. Any debate about precisely who upset the apple cart more than anyone else is all a wee bit fruitless.

[DrJack54]

7 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

I seriously doubt you have any idea of how really minuscule the cumulative 'resident' old foreigners contribution to the Thai GDP is.

 

The tax dollars contributed by the cumulative 'resident' old foreigners in Thailand to their respective nation's coffers is probably about the same amount as they contribute to the Thai taxman.

You have concrete data on the minuscule comment? I'm 64 spend 60aud here every year. Sometimes more.  That is fact. I'm sure I'm not the only one. 

[gaviny]

Who said "the embassy was wrong...." The embassy staff or the expat? I'm bit surprised by all the comments in many threads about that the embassies are wrong. Lot of staff at the embassy are clerks. They are not in position to verify anything. Don't have expertise or authority. The income method with affidavit was a nonesence from outset. 

The expat said , and totally agree with you, the Thai ladies are only clerks so why vent your anger at them,nothing they day will change the Embassy's decision.

Sent from my Redmi Note 6 Pro using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[LawrenceN]

15 hours ago, fforest1 said:

So you do the 800K to prove you are honest.....You want us to give you a gold star and a cookie to show how wonderful you are ?...... It gets really really boring to listen to people like yourself put down others because they used the 65,000 baht a month income method....It will be a sad day for you when you can not meet the ever changing goal posts for your 800k visa....

I use the monthly income method, and will extend my retirement visa next month. In the past, I took the pointless notarized letter from the consulate. This time, I plan to take the documents outlined here:

https://www.immigration.go.th/content/service_22

 

Note that the two methods of showing funds are given equal weight, ฿800K on deposit, or ฿65K per month. I plan to take bank statements showing regular deposits, and statements from the sources of my funds. Those satisfy the official requirements as listed by Thai Immigration. As far as I am concerned, this is the definitive statement.

 

I attended the US Consulate's town hall meeting last month in Chiang Mai. The Deputy Chief of Mission summarized the consulate's meetings with Immigration. At long last Immigration figured out that the Consulate never verified income, just the citizen's statement and identity. We were paying for notarial services. Both sides finally got on the same page, recognizing the system was prone to abuse and proved nothing. Good riddance and $50 more in my pocket.

 

Change is hard, people. Read the info in the link above carefully. The sky is not falling. Do yourselves a favor and stop listening to all the Chicken Littles here in TVland. Collect your documents and forget about the way it WAS done.

Edited December 19, 2018 by LawrenceN
Clarification

[NanLaew]

1 hour ago, DrJack54 said:

Was not point of my post. (BTW he is 72 and came back to visit his Thai (elderly) gf. Point of post is that many farang don't consult Thaivisa. Hence are not aware of changes etc. For every expat reading these forums there are sooooo many that do not and might be surprised when they go to embassy for affidavit next year. 

And your point is well taken. At 72, he was possibly an infrequent visitor and unaware of all the ins and outs of preserving some sort of longevity of stay. I am sure that there's probably an equal-sized band of elderly, long-term residents who, either by lack of having access to the internet or simply having a shrinking circle of friends to meet and chat with socially, the 'old fashioned' way, that will be similarly disconnected from the faster-changing world they still inhabit. It's sad but inevitable.

[NanLaew]

1 hour ago, Pattaya46 said:

Sure, so the question is: Why did US Embassy started (many years ago) to provide such an affidavit for Extension purpose when - clearly - it didn't match the Thai Immigration requirement of "letter verifying your income"...? 

Because 'at that time', the issues with immigration fraud were not as prevalent or openly 'in-your-face' as they are now?

 

You can add the new, high-profile and visibly successful 'Mr Fixit' who has recently been moved from the catching bad guys with the Tourist Police to heading up the Immigration Police. Whatever letters and agreements that were deemed agreeable and acceptable by the Immigration Police under previous management have simply been revoked by new management.