This isn't about America bashing,

The <deleted> it isn't! Half your posts in this forum are about exactly that.

.... human rights are a benchmark for the moral values of humanity and those values are being brought into question.

Yet in all your b*tching and moaning about human rights, you haven't said one f*cking thing about tens if not hundreds of thousands of political prisoners held worldwide for no other reason that they have a voice of dissent with their native government. Nor have you said one f*cking thing about the tens of millions of people who have been murdered for the very same reason. All you can do is rant and rave about a few hundred losers who of their own free will made their bed and now don't want to sleep in it.

In all your b*tching and moaning, you haven't said one f*cking thing about the racist, apartheid, inhumane policies of radical theocracies like Iran and rogue dictatorships like Syria. Rather you spend your time bashing a country whose constitution and policies are the very antithesis of these whack-o-cracies.

Those are some pretty messed up priorities. You talk about integrity. You don't know the meaning of the word. You make me want to puke!

A truly pointless post.

Why don't you post a reasoned justification for the suspension of human rights, as a counterpoint to this discussion?

Seems to be a number of people here who share the GWB vision for the future.

Seems to be a number of people here who share the GWB vision for the future.

BECLOWNING, once again. As usual, it's self-inflicted.

I suppose this doesn't really increase faith in the US-Goverment and the CIA

US accused on 'missing' prisoners

Thirty eight people believed to have been held in secret CIA prisons - or black sites - are missing, according to a report by a US human rights group.

excerpts:

He [bush] said the prisoners had since been transferred to the US military camp at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and the CIA was not holding any more terror suspects.

But in a report published on Tuesday, HRW has named another 38 people who were believed to have been held in secret CIA prisons, who are now missing.

Quoting US intelligence officials, The Washington Post says more than 60 people have been held in the prisons since 2001.

and:

EU threat

Meanwhile, the US has warned the European Union that ongoing inquiries into secret CIA flights within Europe linked to the black sites are threatening intelligence ties between Europe and the US.

from:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6405089.stm

LaoPo

... are threatening intelligence ties between Europe and the US. [/i]

Ok now I know you're joking!

... David Hicks ...

... the enemy ...

Postscript ...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070301/ap_on_...errorism_trials

... David Hicks ...

... the enemy ...

Postscript ...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070301/ap_on_...errorism_trials

When are you going to give it up Herr Spee.

After the events of 9/11 a certain leeway was rightly granted to the US.

It did not extend to a gratuitous invasion of Iraq but the US was so confident

it could "shock and awe" it went ahead.

But 5 years on ?

In Afghanistan the Taliban are apparently still a force to contend with.

Iraq is a clusterfcuk.

"Suspects" are being held offshore and being flown to unsavoury destinations

because the US distrusts it's own justice system.

You may defend the current US administration's policy out of patriotism but

do you have any answer to a charge of sheer <deleted> incompetence ?

Well, blame terrorists for starting this 'situation' we're in...

Blame on the situation, is a moot point, what isn't moot is the detention of prisoners, whether terrorist, freedom fighter or POW, Try and convict or release, basic Human Rights, get on the programme.

Good Luck

Moss

Well, blame terrorists for starting this 'situation' we're in...

Amazing, isn't it? Americans fund the IRA and support their terrorism campaign on the British mainland for decades. Celebrity tours for Sinn Fein leaders & meetings with US politicians. Good ol' boys in the pubs in Boston, waxing lyrical about the homeland (which most had never set foot on) & singing "freedom" songs. That's all great, isn't it? I presume the IRA were "freedom fighters", not terrorists, because the US supported them? Then the US is targetted (a tragedy, yes, definitely) and suddenly we have "The War on Terror", dubious wars, and measures such as these. And we get such gems as "blame the terrorists". What happened to "blame the terrorists" when our shops were getting bombed at Christmas? When our pubs were getting bombed? Our train stations? Had we brought in measures, such as Lao Pao is highlighting, at that time, imagine the outcry of human rights abuses by US politicians! Must be fabulous to be the world's policeman, judge and lord & master...

C'mon November, if you are going to make a statement about terrorism in the UK and Ireland, or anywhere for that matter it does need to be balanced.

Although I agree that funding for the PIRA came from the sanitized smoke and fume filled bar rooms of old memories and from the gala fund raising dinner plate society gatherings, but what cannot be neglected or forgotten is the state sponsored terrorism by the Gov't against the terrorist/freedom fighter and the innocent bystander and Civil rights Protester and Justice and Investigative reporters.

The war/troubles in Ireland are ancient, complicated and on many counts unfathomable.

The murder of innocents is unacceptable and shameful but acts are committed on both sides of any perceived war on terror, remember this term will always be a double edged sword, and the sponsorship of state terrorism, will never be brought to justice, as is the case of collusion and bombings of certain participants.

Whatever the reason, whoever the participant, you must be accountable, if you cross the line of law or human rights if you have signed up to them, they must be up-held or the inevitable consequence is anarchy, the presumed outcome of the individuals you are trying to eradicate.

Links to both sponsored terrorism and collusion will be provided if anybody takes the time to read and listen.

Good Luck

Moss

Typical bleeding-heart, left-wing, self-loathing, blame America first comments, one & all. Exception, LaoPo...

Perhaps you could find the time to provide something more elaborate

than the above mantra in response to November Rain's remarks on US

attitudes to the provos' terrorist campaign?

Interesting that president Bill had such a positive effect on the resolution

of that conflict.

Maybe president Hilary will be able to repair some of the damage to the

world and the standing of the US therein.

BC certainly did have a positive account in Ireland, excepting one particular episode when he described the participants as two drunken western film protaganists, who go some way to leaving a brawl and then stagger at the last moment back into the fray again, just to kick it all off again.

Nevertheless, he and Blair along with certain other guys, but not also forgetting that once the attack on the financial institutions of the UK and the fact that no freedom fighter/terrorist cannot continue without the tacit support of the indiginous population, once the first is compromised and the second once wants a solution, there is only one inevitable outcome.

Good Luck

Moss

I worked at WT7. I had many friends who died in WT1&2, and I take real big offence at anyone who even infers that it was a deserved act.

Never can the murder of innocent people or non-combatants be classed as a deserved act.

Good Luck

Moss

I worked at WT7. I had many friends who died in WT1&2, and I take real big offence at anyone who even infers that it was a deserved act.

That's understandable Jet, my sympathy to you for the loss of your friends.

I take offence to the hundreds of thousands of innocent lives that have been ended in the name of freedom by the US and UK governments and the Western media perspective that the life of a US citizen is of more value than the life of any other human on this planet.

I must admit that the resonse appears to be far outside of what could be considered logical.

The revenge of the TwinTowers has now escalated into the deaths of how many US soldiers: 3K+ and their allies and the kick-back includes other coalition forces inc the UK and Canada and the Spanish Train bombs and of course tube bombings here.

The alternative, I really don't know but the refual of acknowledgement of Human rights has gotta be a basic constituent of common law.

To act as a terrorist, outside of the norm, is nothing, if not making you just as much a terrorist and the soap box that is perpetuated ad nauseum is a crock of the ususal nonsensical arguement of world censorship and moral demacratic values.

Good Luck

Moss

Yes it was a crime, pure and simple, but a crime that has been used as an excuse to promote an entirely different agenda than the mere apprehension of the criminals involved in that act.

As an afterthought it could be said that it was more than a criminal act by the perpatrators, it was a statement, probably the boldest we have ever witnessed, in a desensitized world that's what it took to draw our attention back to the Middle East.

That may seem quite contradictory, two outcomes from the same event, but it's the difference in agenda that would keep both points of view separate.

LaoPo - yes many countries do this sort of thing. Unfortunately the public never knows about it.

Curious to learn which countries; any fact links ?

LaoPo

LaoPo,

I believe there is presently a case in the media regarding an Israeli who was kidnapped some 25 odd years ago for trying to pass on/stop Nuclear secrets being taken out/in of/the country, 25 years without trial.

As you read my text it is fairly obvious I am not clear on the circumstances as I sometimes get blind to mans inhumanity to man, but when I get thru this thread, and I wish I hadn't started, I will try and post a link.

Good Luck

Moss

Mordechai Vanunu

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/corr...ent/2841377.stm

http://www.theconnection.org/shows/2004/11...1117_a_main.asp

A couple of links I found

He was released a while ago but I believe his movements were

restricted (no press contact , no can leave Israel).

Yanks are a Republic, not quite a democracy by definition.

Well, by definition Brit:

A Democracy is; Gov't by the people, direct or representative

A Rebublic is; Supreme power is held by the people or its direct representative

Source OED

I personally cannot see the difference, particularly when taking this thread in context.

Good Luck

Moss

Never said it was ok, but it happens and part of most govt(s) inner workings.

Ah, but you say the gitmo decision is a good one. How can you then support two opposing sides of an issue?

The 'boys' in Gitmo wouldn't be there if they were not 'bad boys'...

Then there is no problem in following due process, is there, find the facts, prove and commit, alterntively release without charge.

Good Luck

Moss

That's good to hear, because if they're so confident that they're guilty then habeas corpus should be no threat.

Let the military tribunals begin...

Any tribunal will do, I guess, but why a military tribunal for those kidnapped, including on British soil under Extraordinary Rendition.

Good Luck

Moss

And there are those who believe it was a dispicable criminal act perpatrated by terrorists, but was then hijacked by the Bush administration who went on to sacrifice another 3000 plus Americans in an unessasary war.

As for the prisioners at gitmo, I'm fine with them facing a tribunal. But not if it's some secret process where nobody has the right to see the evidence against them or face their accusers. Something that's been the foundation of our rights since the magna carta.

You can't just wave the flag and chant freedom when you're about to bomb someone. You have to stick to those principals even when it's difficult or the whole notion of a free society is worthless.

Others don't hate America's freedom. For so many years it was looked up to as a beacon of freedom when more than half the world lived under some form of dictatorship. Now that all but the most fervent idealogues have seen through the stories of the current US leadership, they're angered by it's hypocracy.

Although I obviously agree, I am not sure that the US follows British common law or the Magna Carta, perhaps they would do better if they did, going by recent actions.

Good Luck

Moss

Well, as we finish the last two years of Bush's Presidency, we are witnessing "end stage" Bush Derangement Syndrome, which manifests itself by the histrionic and blind hatred of anything the President does or does not do.

This "end stage" BDS--like terminal syphilis--has culminated in blindness combined with an insanity so profound, the consequences to those who suffer it--as well as to our country--will likely be quite profound, if not lethal, since they hinder and undermine this country's ability to deal with real threats.

BDS: The acute onset of paranoia in otherwise normal people in reaction to the policies, the presidency -- nay -- the very existence of George W. Bush."

BDS Syndrome also known as RHDS, which translates as Red Haired Dwarf Syndrome, taken from CS Lewis's Narnia books, pricipally 'The Last Battle', where the Red Headed Dwarves, would only listen to what had been indoctrinated into them, and not see things how they actually are.

For example, Fine Wine and Banquet are seen as rank straw and soiled water, read democratic values as Extraordinary rendition and Guatanimo as proper and due process.

Good Luck

Moss

In the absence of being able to think for themselves many just regurgitate what others tell them to.

As opposed to the so-called "free-thinkers"? :

From last night's Special Report with Brit Hume

Court of Appeals decision reached today . . . found that enemy combatants detained at Guantanamo Bay, and perhaps elsewhere, no longer have the ability to sue, as Americans can . . . in U.S. courts to challenge their detention.

FRED BARNES: I mean, this isn't threatening anybody's liberties in the United States or constitutional rights, at all. It applies only to these people captured in wartime who are at Guantanamo, who have never lived in the United States or own property here and so they don't have a right. . . . [T]hey're not American citizens and they're not on American property. This was a very, I think, a very simple ruling were habeas corpus didn't apply. . . .

[T]hose seized in warfare have never had the opportunity to appeal anything . . . Japanese soldiers who are captured and held here were not, Germans were not, even when they were held on American soil. I mean, there were a lot of prisons here during World War II, they weren't allowed to appeal. So, it would be utterly unprecedented for these detainees to be able to use habeas corpus. I think they're getting a heck of a break just being able to appeal these military commissions.

If you can't do the time, don't do the crime?

I was under the impression that the US recently apologised for the indiscriminate internment of Japanese descent during WW11, and I thought that enemy combatants came under the Geneva Convention, except where they were deemed as spys or they were on your side then they were called agents, and as such could be deemed as outside the law, and summarily executed.

However, are they Enemy Combatants or are they members of an army that have had war declared against them or are they Spys/agents, in any case prove, commit or release.

Good Luck

Moss

The whole situation about the Guantanamo Bay prisoners is a disgrace to the free democratic world; if there's any left of it.

Jeezus <deleted> chr*st! Where do people get this crap?!

There is nothing, repeat NOTHING, free and democratic about a prison! That's why it is called prison!

There d*mn sure is nothing free and democratic about a military prison. The military by its very nature is anything but free and democratic.

The first rule of war is there are no rules. Anyone who believes otherwise is kidding themselves. Wanna run with the big dogs? Well ya gotta sh*t with 'em too! Those stinking b*stards are there because they chose to fight for the losing side in a no-win situation. They deserve whatever they get.

Fortunately there is a lot of things democratic about a prison, and as for there being no rules in war, isn't it exactly that, that is biting everybody in the arse right now, to use the vernacular.

I think the Great Danes have run up against a bunch of Terriers, MIn Pins and Chihuahua's at this moment and Nuclear Superiority and Smart Technology is doing little to help the situation, perhaps a little clear thinking might go some way, like asking your Generals to put up a battle strategy before the war.

When they came up with strategies like mobile strikes on the back of motor bikes and indiscriminate road side and suicide bombs and the fact that the regular army would give up and mingle with the general populace, he was sacked.

Good Luck

Moss

An alternative perception would be that the US entered the war in Europe to stop the spread of Communism, which became a possibility after the collapse of Axis forces in Stalingrad and the Eastern front and also to secure Nazi scientists and their accumulated knowledge for US benefit.

Wow, that is some statement Robbo, although I agree with the rush with capturing of the scientists, the first is a little new on me, something I feel worth checking up on.

Good Luck

Moss

Why don't you point it out if it's so obvious?

Sorry, you're not going to entice me into the gutter with you. If you flunked Logic 101, or never progressed beyond the name-calling of the primary schoolyard, you won't get it.

But, just to leave you with one example:

That is just the Imperial Japanese Army thought of the Allied POWS, funny eh?

To equate the Japanese treatment of PoWs in WW2 to American treatment of the Gitmo slugs is completely ignorant or completely moronic. Take your pick. It's just so off the wall as to barely be worthy of a response.

I tend to side with the last six words of the last-quoted poster...

I agree partly with the quoted last six words, partly I say, because I have just responded, if you are going to engage, then there is no point in then hiding behind the fanciful guttersnipe jibe.

Good Luck

Moss

Would any member like to give us a reasoned opinion of their own, that could highlight the benefits of the Guantanamo inmates having no legal or human rights, as a counter argument to this discussion?

TT, I can think of no reason why they shouldn't have representation, except by having no representation then the real reason for their incarceration should be made obvious to the world.

But I guess I have misunderstood your question.

Good Luck

Moss

Well here's my way of looking at it. These are either POWs, or they're terrorists. Either way, there are laws designed to deal with them. By making up a new designation you should not be able to duck these laws. Also, there's a measure of hypocracy when you keep them in another country to avoid having to give them certain human rights, especially as you are embargoing that same country and often citing human rights as a reason.

Then there is the issue of having the right to hear the charges against you. A cornerstone of the justice system in the US, Canada, the UK, and in fact just about any civilized nation. This should never be denied as it allows a government to simply lock up anyone at any time and not have to answer for it. Oddly enough this is very much out of step with most conservative philosophy which decries government infringment on personal liberties.

Well, I guess you don't need me to reiterate that this is exactly what I believe in.

good Luck

Moss

In case you have forgotten, it's a declared war you're wringing your hands over.

If it is a declared war, who has it been declared against, don't tell me it is the axis of evil, but I would honestly like a link to the wording of the actual declaration of war, and if so, as has been mentioned earlier, they are precisely POW's, treat them as such, prove, commit or release.

I am not saying it has not been declared I just want the wording.

Good Luck

Moss

Would any member like to give us a reasoned opinion of their own, that could highlight the benefits of the Guantanamo inmates having no legal or human rights, as a counter argument to this discussion?

TT, I can think of no reason why they shouldn't have representation, except by having no representation then the real reason for their incarceration should be made obvious to the world.

But I guess I have misunderstood your question.

Good Luck

Moss

Wow! you've been busy.

The post you quoted me from before was an invitation for the advocates of the suspension of human rights, to give us a reasoned opinion that we could discuss, it all went kind of quiet after that.

The post you quoted me from before was an invitation for the advocates of the suspension of human rights, to give us a reasoned opinion that we could discuss, it all went kind of quiet after that.

It's called "cut 'n run". Happens when they run out of answers to "cut 'n paste" in response.