Update: New Thai immigration rules for income!

[bkk6060]

I have mentioned before that I have a contact with TI.

This is new information I just received:

I only got some simplified information so sorry I cannot answer questions on this.

This is what I got:

 

In the future you will have to show 65,000 b going into a Thai bank account each and every month from your home country.

The requirement will be for one year prior to your extension. It will start in 2020 needing to show 12 months prior of deposits.

A document from your bank will be required to verify the money entering the account every month.

 

NOTE: But for this year, they will "work with you" and accept what ever history of the 65,000 b you can show leading up to the extension.

They will make a mark or provide some document to you that at next years extension, you will be required to show 12 full months of 65,000 b deposits.

 

The information I got is that they will still accept the income letters from the embassies through their validity.

 

Sorry, I know it is not much but for sure the 65,000 a month will need to be going into a Thai bank account in the future and need to be verified by your Thai bank. The 800,000 b was not mentioned in this updated document so I assume that rule is still good.

 

That is all I got for now.  

 

I know lots of questions I have them also. 

I was told the Thai Immigration website should be posting the updated information regarding this in the near future.

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Thanks for posting that.

 

All unofficial at this point, since it hasn't been formally announced by Immigration. But what you describe above very much sounds like the way many of us were expecting Immigration to go on the issue of monthly income documentation.

 

So, if the above is correct, then as many have feared, this will rule out keeping money in applicants' home bank accounts and then being able to show home country documents such as government pension statements, military pension statements, Social Security, bank interest, etc etc.

[ubonjoe]

Why did you only mention the 65k baht for a retirement extension. It will be the same for the 40k baht needed for an extension based upon marriage,

Nothing new in your post from what the US embassy has been told and that the police order will be issued this month.

[KhunFred]

That certainly sounds optimistic, if those are the requirements. They appear to understand that the situation they have created is untenable without some compromise.

[Spidey]

I still wonder how you prove that the 65k baht is from your home country. Foreign transfers aren't always clear in some bank books.

[Jingthing]

What about the combination method?

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[ubonjoe]

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

What about the combination method?

It will still be allowed. 

[ubonjoe]

6 minutes ago, Spidey said:

I still wonder how you prove that the 65k baht is from your home country. Foreign transfers aren't always clear in some bank books.

The bank will be able to confirm that. A statement done by them may show it.

[Jingthing]

It will still be allowed. 

I hope so but I'm confused. Lets say your dollar income is 1500 usd monthly. So you transfer that in monthly and the baht amount will be different each time. So what they do? Add up 12 unique baht transfers and then that would be the basis to figure the needed Thai bank account balance?
Or something else?
Would they require the baht amount to be the same each time?
What if you had a glitch and missed a month so next month you transfer in two months?
It seems to me that people will be taking risk using that method compared to the money in the bank method if immigration as they tend to do lacks flexibility.

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[TallGuyJohninBKK]

26 minutes ago, KhunFred said:

That certainly sounds optimistic, if those are the requirements. They appear to understand that the situation they have created is untenable without some compromise.

 

I don't see any compromise there... What kind are you seeing?

 

If true, monthly income will only be 12 monthly deposits into a Thai bank account and nothing else.

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

39 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

 

Nothing new in your post from what the US embassy has been told and that the police order will be issued this month.

 

There was comment after the Chiang Mai Town Hall Meeting that the U.S. Embassy staff hosted about embassy staff supposedly working with Immigration to acquaint them about supposedly understanding/recognizing the various forms of U.S. financial documentation such as Social Security statements, etc etc.

 

If the OP report here is correct, then obviously, whatever notion was afoot about Immigration dealing with foreign financial documents has apparently come to nothing.

 

[thequietman]

24 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

The bank will be able to confirm that. A statement done by them may show it.

Surely it won't matter where the income is transferred in from!

 

As long as the money is coming into Thailand then it shouldn't be an issue. Some expats have income from various sources. For example, I have funds coming from Japan, the UK and Ireland and all are transferred into my Thai bank account.

 

What about those who earn in Thailand with work permits? Surely that income can also be counted towards the required amount.

[Lovethailandelite]

30 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I hope so but I'm confused. Lets say your dollar income is 1500 usd monthly. So you transfer that in monthly and the baht amount will be different each time. So what they do? Add up 12 unique baht transfers and then that would be the basis to figure the needed Thai bank account balance?
Or something else?
Would they require the baht amount to be the same each time?
What if you had a glitch and missed a month so next month you transfer in two months?
It seems to me that people will be taking risk using that method compared to the money in the bank method if immigration as they tend to do lacks flexibility.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

It may and note I say 'May' either have to arrive as Thai baht (Your foreign bank does the conversion and sends baht) or you are going to have too make sure and send a fair bit over the top in order to cover the fluctuating T/T rate of Bangkok bank. Quite honestly, other than the funds arriving here as baht, it doesn't seem workable.

Edited January 4, 2019 by Lovethailandelite

[Pib]

12 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

There was comment after the Chiang Mai Town Hall Meeting that the U.S. Embassy staff hosted about embassy staff supposedly working with Immigration to acquaint them about supposedly understanding/recognizing the various forms of U.S. financial documentation such as Social Security statements, etc etc.

 

If the OP report here is correct, then obviously, whatever notion was afoot about Immigration dealing with foreign financial documents has apparently come to nothing.

 

Too hard....too many different types of possible income docs...too many different languages and formats...just too complicated. 

 

Appears TI will use the KISS principle by relying only on "Thai bank" docs.  Either a Bt800/Bt400K deposit seasoned for the req'd months....or Bt65K/Bt40K per month inbound international transfer.   Only Thai bank docs to deal with (i.e., bank letter and passbook).  

[ubonjoe]

12 minutes ago, thequietman said:

What about those who earn in Thailand with work permits? Surely that income can also be counted towards the required amount.

That would only apply for those getting extensions based upon marriage and that is already covered in the existing police order for required documents that state income tax returns are accepted.

[ubonjoe]

36 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I hope so but I'm confused. Lets say your dollar income is 1500 usd monthly. So you transfer that in monthly and the baht amount will be different each time. So what they do? Add up 12 unique baht transfers and then that would be the basis to figure the needed Thai bank account balance?
Or something else?
Would they require the baht amount to be the same each time?
What if you had a glitch and missed a month so next month you transfer in two months?
It seems to me that people will be taking risk using that method compared to the money in the bank method if immigration as they tend to do lacks flexibility.

It would be a total income for a year since the income would vary due to exchange rate fluctuations using the bank book or a statement. Not sure about missing a month and making up for the missing one by doubling the amount.

There is no way they could expect the baht amount to be the same every month due to exchange rate fluctuations.

Since I recall you mentioning SS payments before the best way would be to have it direct deposited to your account so there would never be a month missed,

I have my SS payments direct deposited to my Bangkok bank account and have a 6 month statement printed to a PDF file using online banking that includes has a sum of the 6 months credited to my account. I can then do one for a another 6 months when my extension is due. All of them show well more than the 40k baht I need for my extension based upon marriage.

 

[gk10002000]

So now people will have to, (assuming the rumors are true) to monthly and every month make a transfer of money in to some Thai Bank?  So now an expat has to pay for monthly transfers, not to mention get things set up.  And as others have asked or posted, is transferring in 3 months worth of money quarterly say every 3 months going to be allowed?  So if somebody has cash on hand, say from just returning from a visit home and returned with say 10,000 USD, they would still have to make transfers?  This monthly transfer is really bad.  And just what do they expect the home bank to certify?  Sure the money may come from that bank and transferred to Thailand, but the home bank may have no idea where the money came from.  Maybe the expat just deposited money in their home bank.  Maybe the expat's income comes from various sources and not all are directly put in their one home bank. Goodness I myself use 3 financial institutions for various reasons and each with a different purpose. 

[gk10002000]

10 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

It would be a total income for a year since the income would vary due to exchange rate fluctuations using the bank book or a statement. Not sure about missing a month and making up for the missing one by doubling the amount.

There is no way they could expect the baht amount to be the same every month due to exchange rate fluctuations.

Since I recall you mentioning SS payments before the best way would be to have it direct deposited to your account so there would never be a month missed,

I have my SS payments direct deposited to my Bangkok bank account and have a 6 month statement printed to a PDF file using online banking that includes has a sum of the 6 months credited to my account. I can then do one for a another 6 months when my extension is due. All of them show well more than the 40k baht I need for my extension based upon marriage.

 

I would never have my Social security payments or any other income direct deposited into a Thai bank.  I have seen enough issues with US banks, I would not want to get in the middle of using a Thai bank. I maintain a US presence and US financial institutions and will always continue to do so.  I understand why many do it, and I understand the pros and cons.  To each their own.

[Jingthing]

Will they keep accepting embassy letters from nationals that can still get them? I'm not talking about the six month thing. I'm asking if they intend to phase out acceptance of embassy letters entirely? 

,

[GinBoy2]

I would like to think this isn't shocking news to anyone.

 

Now it's official, then again when is any regulation in Thailand written in stone? But the writing has been on the wall for a while.

 

Countless column inches of denial have been written, counter arguments, but it's beginning to coalesce into what was probably evident from the beginning .

 

They (Thai Immigration) want you to do the money in the bank thing. It's easy, not a lot of effort required, everyone is happy.

 

The embassies were never going to verify countless variations of income, and yes not everyone relies on a single State retirement income. So that was a non starter.

 

So for Thai immigration if you want the simple answer, you look at a Thai bank account, and you verify monthly deposits from overseas, if there isn't the lump sum deposit.

 

It's not what a lot of folks wanna hear, but surprising?

 

Well you shouldn't be

[Lovethailandelite]

31 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Will they keep accepting embassy letters from nationals that can still get them?  

 

Unlikely unless these other Embassy's can and will verify income the way TI require.

[Caldera]

It will be interesting to see how they will handle new (future) retirees from 2020 on - will they expect them to start their monthly deposits one year before applying for their first extension?

[mngmn]

Check out Transferwise's Borderless Account. It solves many of the problems discussed here especially the problem of transferring exactly 65k baht each month.

 

Fees are low as well.

[jackdd]

55 minutes ago, GinBoy2 said:

Now it's official

It's not official (yet), currently it's only hearsay

 

55 minutes ago, GinBoy2 said:

They (Thai Immigration) want you to do the money in the bank thing. It's easy, not a lot of effort required, everyone is happy.

I don't see how the immigration officers are happy.

 

Before people who wanted to use the income method - without actually having the income - had to choose between either paying an agent or committing a crime (stating a wrong income on the income affidavit), for which you go to jail in some countries (for example US) if you are caught. So i assume there were quite some people who were scared of the jail and decided to pay an agent.

But if now the income requirement is just to have 65k coming into your bank account each month you can in theory just send the whole amount back and forth between your Thai and your home country bank account and you are in compliance with the rules.

 

Sending the whole amount would of course only be relevant for people who work here illegally, so let's look at the case which is way more common, somebody has an income, but not 65k:

If you have let's say 40k income per month which you transfer anyway and you transfer an additional 25k back and forth to reach 65k, this costs a few hundred THB extra per month, let's say 5000THB per year.

So if somebody does this he is compliant with the rules and (what does an "agent" cost? 20k?) he saves let's say 15k per year for the agent.

 

I could imagine that many of these people for whom the saving on the agent fee is nearly half a month's pension will now switch to sending some extra money back and forth, thus the immigration officers get less money from agents, are of course not happy about this and will come up with rules which try to eliminate this.

Edited January 4, 2019 by jackdd

[Lovethailandelite]

24 minutes ago, Caldera said:

It will be interesting to see how they will handle new (future) retirees from 2020 on - will they expect them to start their monthly deposits one year before applying for their first extension?

I wouldn't be looking so far ahead. Nobody can categorically tell you with any certainty, what is liable to happen next month, let alone in 2020 

[jackdd]

6 minutes ago, mngmn said:

Check out Transferwise's Borderless Account. It solves many of the problems discussed here especially the problem of transferring exactly 65k baht each month.

 

Fees are low as well.

I recommend you watch this video to understand how Transferwise works, then you will understand that you can't use Transferwise if it has to be a transfer from abroad: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLKKzRvOsLQ&feature=youtu.be&t=45

 

 

[Lovethailandelite]

Just now, jackdd said:

It's not official (yet), currently it's only hearsay

 

I don't see how the immigration officers are happy.

 

Before for people who wanted to use the income method - without actually having the income - had to choose between either paying an agent or committing a crime (stating a wrong income on the income affidavit), for which you go to jail in some countries (for example US) if you are caught. So i assume there were quite some people who were scared of the jail and decided to pay an agent.

But if now the income requirement is just to have 65k coming into your bank account each month you can in theory just send the whole amount back and forth between your Thai and your home country bank account and you are in compliance with the rules.

 

Sending the whole amount would of course only be relevant for people who work here illegally, so let's look at the case which is way more common, somebody has an income, but not 65k:

If you have let's say 40k income per month which you transfer anyway and you transfer an additional 25k back and forth to reach 65k, this costs a few hundred THB extra per month, let's say 5000THB per year.

So if somebody does this he is compliant with the rules and (what does an "agent" cost? 20k?) he saves let's say 15k per year for the agent.

 

I could imagine that many of these people for whom the saving on the agent fee is nearly half a month's pension will now switch to sending some extra money back and forth, thus the immigration officers get less money from agents, are of course not happy about this and will come up with rules which try to eliminate this.

Good luck with the following years extension when TI see you playing the 65k Merry go round when they see your bank book. If people choose to play these silly games, you will have the Malaysian model bond system in place here faster than even you could of ever imagined.

[elviajero]

There doesn’t appear to be anything new in the OP. 

 

Last I heard, the main issue — coming from the meeting back in December — was how to deal with first time applicants that have only been in the country 3 months.

 

These threads are pointless. We need to wait for the official announcement.

[JackThompson]

 

2 hours ago, Jingthing said:

I hope so but I'm confused. Lets say your dollar income is 1500 usd monthly. So you transfer that in monthly and the baht amount will be different each time. So what they do? Add up 12 unique baht transfers and then that would be the basis to figure the needed Thai bank account balance?
Or something else?
Would they require the baht amount to be the same each time?

I would guess they would require the amount to be over 65K Baht/mo every time.  Those who cut it too close will get nailed by a currency-fluctuation, and become another agent-customer.

 

2 hours ago, Jingthing said:

What if you had a glitch and missed a month so next month you transfer in two months?

Unless you have an honorable IO, you become another agent-customer - or have to leave.  

If not transferring benefits directly, best to set up a recurring xfer with your passport-country bank.  Don't give them any rope to hang you with.

 

2 hours ago, Jingthing said:

It seems to me that people will be taking risk using that method compared to the money in the bank method if immigration as they tend to do lacks flexibility.

They'll get around to making the bank-method difficult to do w/o an agent, eventually.  Maybe add an "approval" period and then, like they are doing in some offices for marriage-based now, prevent using the bank-money during that time - effectively adding another "seasoning" month.  Then up the minimums, add insurance, etc 

 

But at least for a little while, they should be rolling in under-the-table dough, and hopefully too busy spending it to think up more ways to make honest applications more difficult.

 

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

Will they keep accepting embassy letters from nationals that can still get them? I'm not talking about the six month thing. I'm asking if they intend to phase out acceptance of embassy letters entirely? 

If they can knock out the Canadians' letters, that should generate another windfall, given high numbers here.  But I'm not sure what the Canadian embassy's procedure is; if they actually check with all the sources that the amounts are correct, they might not be able to disqualify those. 

 

OTOH, given new rules are being made (and officially published rules, at that), they might just scrap the embassy-letter routine entirely.

[jackdd]

10 minutes ago, Lovethailandelite said:

Good luck with the following years extension when TI see you playing the 65k Merry go round when they see your bank book. If people choose to play these silly games, you will have the Malaysian model bond system in place here faster than even you could of ever imagined.

If you just use another bank account for sending money back they won't see it ????

Or you could for example use https://www.dee.money/ to send it back, that's also cheaper for such small amounts than doing a bank to bank transfer yourself, and you could go to their branch and give them cash, or if you transfer it to them it just looks like you transferred the money to some person in Thailand.

Edited January 4, 2019 by jackdd