Update: New Thai immigration rules for income!

[Sheryl]

7 minutes ago, OJAS said:

May I temper all the apparent optimism on this thread with some words of caution? It should not IMHO be taken as a given that each and every immigration office (or, indeed, each and every officer within the same office) will comply with the requirements of any new Police Order or directive straight away. There could well be those officers who, in the short term at least, will still insist on seasoned 400k/800k bank balances being the only way forward in the absence of Embassy income confirmations, and no amount of waving new Police Orders or directives under their noses will necessarily cause them to budge.

 

True. Varying practices/interpretations across government  offices in different locations is always a possibility.

 

But in my experience the simpler and clearer official guidelines are, the more chance of their being followed.

 

Some of the initial reports we have gotten of IOs saying only the 800/400k in future may have been a response to lack of clear guidance on documentation of income - IOs were afraid of doing it wrong , of  being confronted with complex hard to interpret foreign documents and being asked to make detreminations based on them...so proposed to solve the problem by refusing to do extensions based on monthly income. 

 

If the guidance issued is worded clearly enough (always an "if" when it comes to Thai government directives!) then it should remove that concern. 40/65k a month into a Thai bank account is just as easy to verify as the 400/800k method. That is the great advantage of it: it is very clear and simple and all needed documentation can be obtained from Thai banks, in Thai language, and will be documents IOs are already accustomed to reviewing.

 

There may still be some outliers but I think odds better favor it being implemented than the various complex approaches that many TV posters have suggested which would have had IOs wading through ATM slips, multiple foreign financial documents and the like. Faced with that, many would prefer not to stick their necks out and risk being in the wrong.

[SooKee]

6 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

I'm not sure what the concern is using TW into Kasikorn bank. What is posted here and has been said elsewhere is just 65K a month coming into an account, not anything about showing it came from abroad.  Which will be good for those who fund their retirements through passive income (rentals income or investment income etc) inside Thailand.

 

If however there is a need to show foreign source if the fund, each transfer into Kasikorn generated something called a "Credit Advice" and you can arrange to get copies of them. I believe you can also arrange to get a copy on a standing basis. Call the central number and ask about it.  Even if (as seems likely) it will not be necessary for extension of stay purposes it is IMO a good idea to have the records to show that your funds came from abroad just in case. For example, if yo uever needed to send a large amount out of the country.

Yeah for sure, if 'from abroad' doesn't feature as a requirement of any subsequent police order it'll be done and dusted for me.  If asked I'd have the TW 'statement' showing exactly the same THB transfers as Kasikorn receives but if 'abroad' doesn't feature it won't even be an issue.

 

Interesting about the 'Credit Advice', next time I'm in I'll ask the branch if there's any way of getting a credits only statement made up of those or at least query having a yearly batch, that's assuming they go back far enough down the trail of the funds as opposed to just stopping at Bangkok Bank

[Sheryl]

4 minutes ago, Pib said:

Oh you can bet an "incoming international" transfer will be required. Otherwise, the individual could just be transferring money from one Thai bank account to another...like from say K-bank to Bangkok Bank.  Then go to a Bangkok Bank branch/ATM, withdraw the money....deposit it back in K-bank so you can then transfer/deposit it to Bangkok Bank a month later.   

 

????  That did not even occur to me but of course you are right. Someone could do that and no doubt some would.

 

But then this creates a problem for those whose retirement is funded, all or (more often) in part, through passive income from Thai sources. They would have to get the money first sent abroad and then re-import it. Which will entail transaction costs.

[fforest1]

16 hours ago, GinBoy2 said:

I would like to think this isn't shocking news to anyone.

 

Now it's official, then again when is any regulation in Thailand written in stone? But the writing has been on the wall for a while.

 

Countless column inches of denial have been written, counter arguments, but it's beginning to coalesce into what was probably evident from the beginning .

 

They (Thai Immigration) want you to do the money in the bank thing. It's easy, not a lot of effort required, everyone is happy.

 

The embassies were never going to verify countless variations of income, and yes not everyone relies on a single State retirement income. So that was a non starter.

 

So for Thai immigration if you want the simple answer, you look at a Thai bank account, and you verify monthly deposits from overseas, if there isn't the lump sum deposit.

 

It's not what a lot of folks wanna hear, but surprising?

 

Well you shouldn't be

Bla Bla Bla......Yes Immigration absolutely 100% wants to see the money in a Thai bank from 4 countries.....All the rest of the countries they dont really care about seeing they money because they can keep using the income letter no problem....LOL.........I guess your nose to grind stone cold hard reality does not really work does it?

Edited January 5, 2019 by fforest1

[Sheryl]

1 minute ago, SooKee said:

Interesting about the 'Credit Advice', next time I'm in I'll ask the branch if there's any way of getting a credits only statement made up of those or at least query having a yearly batch, that's assuming they go back far enough down the trail of the funds as opposed to just stopping at Bangkok Bank

I have been getting Credit Advices for years for each transfer I make. My local branch usually does nto know what they are/what it is I am asking for. Need to talk to the central office. Also, it seems easy to get and free if done shortly after the transfer occurs and to take longer and involve s small fee if done later.

 

I was told at one point by Kasikorn central office staff that I could apply for something that would automatically provide me with these. I did nto bother as I usually only do one transfer a year but for you it would make sense.

 

This is what a credit advice looks like:

 

[wobalt]

I wonder why the money has to come from foreign sources. assuming that I have some million baht in my account originating from my work in Thailand


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[jmd8800]

My prediction is: 20 pages in this thread by early Sunday AM.

[jacko45k]

3 minutes ago, wobalt said:

I wonder why the money has to come from foreign sources. assuming that I have some million baht in my account originating from my work in Thailand


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Then you would not need income verification and could use the more straightforward 800k on deposit? 

[zoza]

1 hour ago, DRG said:

Very strange. I have been making deposits from my bank in Jersey, Channel Islands, to my KTB account for more than 10 years. In the bank book the transaction code is XISDT and on the statement I download, it is shown as 'Overseas transfer' with the amount in GBP deposited.

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if you want strange try TransferWise to Kasikorn ''Dummy Branch'' is the Bank my money comes from according to KK, ok I get a letter from KK

but it does not look great on the bank statements. 

[jackdd]

17 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

????  That did not even occur to me but of course you are right. Someone could do that and no doubt some would.

 

But then this creates a problem for those whose retirement is funded, all or (more often) in part, through passive income from Thai sources. They would have to get the money first sent abroad and then re-import it. Which will entail transaction costs.

I did only ever see an US income affidavit, but on this it says something like "i have an income of xxx from the US", i assume for other countries this looked similar. So people who get their money from investments inside Thailand could never use the income method.

[JackThompson]

5 hours ago, kannot said:

IS  Thai  Thai  Elite 20 year visa  now  looking a  better long  term  prospect?

First Frame: image of a senior administrator, with an elite application on his desk for approval accompanied by a think brown envelope.  He is rubbing his hands together while browsing online for a new-car with eyes bugged-out and sinister smile.

Second Frame: The boarding up of a guesthouse / restaurant with crying Thais standing out front - they just lost their jobs when immigration threw their regular customers out of the country, because they were not "useful" bribe victims.  Thought-bubbles above each of the Thai's heads, with images of their families back home, who were counting on their incomes.

 

Third Frame: A troop of Chinese "genuine tourists" walks by, following a man with a little-flag on a long stick - not buying anything, just gawking (as usual) - before boarding their bus and riding away - leaving the Thais coughing in a cloud of diesel fumes.

 

Someone else will have to do the "art" part.

[Netease]

15 hours ago, mngmn said:

Check out Transferwise's Borderless Account. It solves many of the problems discussed here especially the problem of transferring exactly 65k baht each month.

 

Fees are low as well.

I use them, they are great, But it doesnt have the details how you got the money, in my case I transfer it to TW from one of my many Aus bank acc, also I wait until the rate is high for me I might have to wait awhile for rate to go up, I am waiting until my house is finished then will need marriage Visa, So I am confused

[Pattaya46]

12 minutes ago, jackdd said:

I did only ever see an US income affidavit, but on this it says something like "i have an income of xxx from the US", i assume for other countries this looked similar. So people who get their money from investments inside Thailand could never use the income method.

You assume wrong. 

Here is what the French Embassy Letter says : "Upon request of the above mentioned citizen has declared that his monthly pensions and/or other sources are : xxxx EUR / yyyy THB to enable the interested to apply for a permit of stay in Thailand."  No indication from where the money comes or to where it is paid.

Edited January 5, 2019 by Pattaya46

[SooKee]

29 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

I have been getting Credit Advices for years for each transfer I make. My local branch usually does nto know what they are/what it is I am asking for. Need to talk to the central office. Also, it seems easy to get and free if done shortly after the transfer occurs and to take longer and involve s small fee if done later.

 

I was told at one point by Kasikorn central office staff that I could apply for something that would automatically provide me with these. I did nto bother as I usually only do one transfer a year but for you it would make sense.

 

This is what a credit advice looks like:

 

Thanks,  I'll maybe just ask for one for my most recent transfer see what it says.  The concern would be that to all intents and purposes the transfer in could just look like it comes from the Bangkok Bank Thai branch (the bank that TW does it's transfer to), unless the credit advice provides the full audit trail vs just sending bank (BKK in Thailand) and receiving bank (Kasikorn). If it shows: Customer > TW Bank (BKK?) in UK > BKK Bank in Thailand > Kasikorn it'd be OK.  I just have a funny feeling it might just show BKK > Kasikorn.  Will order one and see, if lucky, either TransferWise UK or their bank branch in the UK will show up under the 'ordering institution'.

Edited January 5, 2019 by SooKee

[elviajero]

2 hours ago, Peasandmash said:

I retired at 47 years old after working for a large American company for 25 years. Now I receive a pension each month, four times a year I receive dividends from 5 different investments (20 total payments) and monthly I earn interest on each of my savings and money market accounts.  My total expenses for our home (I'm married to lovely Thai woman) including cars, motorbike, groceries, utilities, dining, pet care, entertainment, etc, have never exceeded 40,000 baht a month (this does include our international travel expenses.). But according to this new rule I would have to bring into the country an additional 25,000 each month to qualify for a retirement visa? This seems like a losing proposition to me. I really don't see how this is a better option than just putting ฿400K into a Thai bank?  But what's really concerned me is in a few years I will begin collecting social security and then in another 10? years I will be forced to withdrawal money from my retirement savings accounts. Why does the US and now the Thai gov't want me to spend money when I have no need for it?

If you’re married get an extension as the spouse of a Thai and you only need to transfer 40K pm.

[jacko45k]

10 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

You assume wrong. 

Here is what the French Embassy Letter says : "Upon request of the above mentioned citizen has declared that his monthly pensions and/or other sources are : xxxx EUR / yyyy THB to enable the interested to apply for a permit of stay in Thailand."  No indication from where the money comes or to where it is paid.

Did they look at any supporting documents when the letter was issued?

Interesting to see that French Embassy also seems to issue a declaration, possibly without verification.

[jackdd]

18 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

You assume wrong. 

Here is what the French Embassy Letter says : 

"Upon request of the above mentioned citizen has declared that his monthly pensions and/or other sources are : xxxx EUR / yyyy THB to enable the interested to apply for a permit of stay in Thailand."

I assume you manupilate facts to spread wrong information because you .... i seriously don't know why, maybe that's what you believe, but what you say is wrong

I just looked the document up, that's how the part that you quoted actually looks like:

So as we can see the "Euros" part is to be completed by the applicant, and the "THB" part by the embassy.

You made it look like the THB part is to be filled in by the applicant for Thai income, but this is just not true.

Actually you can only use income that's in Euros for this declaration. Any income in other currencies that you might convert yourself to Euros and then put on the form might be correct for this month, but not for other months, so if you do this you are actually making a false declaration of your income. Even though they didn't specifally write it, this income declaration is most likely just for income in Euros, and not other income.

In the US the fine for this is jail, i don't know what it is in France, but maybe similar, so good look if this is what you are doing or have been doing ????

 

Edit: You could probably rent out for example a condo in Thailand for a fixed Euro amount of rent instead of THB, this would be in compliance with this document

Edited January 5, 2019 by jackdd

[elviajero]

1 hour ago, kannot said:

Mine too I dont bring much  money here ever although recently 2  million as I got a payout on something in the UK. Her  money is more than AMPLE to live on but of course Im supposed to be "supporting a  Thai Wife" as the archaic  rules  assume the man is the provider....not in our  case it isnt.

I just leave 400k in  the bank, its been there for years now, I forget it completely.

You’re not supposed to be supporting your wife! The funds are to support yourself during your one year stay.

[elviajero]

1 hour ago, crazykopite said:

And with currency fluctuations a daily occurrence it is going to be very difficult to have the exact income every month .

You don’t need to have the “exact income” 65/40K are minimums. Send a bit extra to cover fluctuations or keep some cash in the bank and use the combination method.

[rumak]

18 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

There was comment after the Chiang Mai Town Hall Meeting that the U.S. Embassy staff hosted about embassy staff supposedly working with Immigration to acquaint them about supposedly understanding/recognizing the various forms of U.S. financial documentation such as Social Security statements, etc etc.

 

If the OP report here is correct, then obviously, whatever notion was afoot about Immigration dealing with foreign financial documents has apparently come to nothing.

 

usually what comes out of big brothers mouthpiece amounts to nothing....

[Pib]

37 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

????  That did not even occur to me but of course you are right. Someone could do that and no doubt some would.

 

But then this creates a problem for those whose retirement is funded, all or (more often) in part, through passive income from Thai sources. They would have to get the money first sent abroad and then re-import it. Which will entail transaction costs.

Yeap....a policy change of requiring the monthly international transfers will no doubt negatively impact those with passive income from Thai sources.  Just as those with "all" income from outside Thailand in needing to do one (or more) transfer per month in terms of fees, not needing Bt65/Bt40K per month to actually live on, etc.   Just a lot of things not good for many people if needing to do a monthly international transfer.

 

But TI is looking for the  "best" method that will minimize the number of ways to beat the system, maximize the probability people "really" have the required income, and it's easy for TI.  

  

[Kurtf]

Oooo WOW. Panic time for sure. Face it folks, Armageddon hasn’t arrived and neither has mass deportations because of income documentation. How about everyone just take a deep breath. Everything will work out just fine and those low life’s that came here on a freighter stowed away in the bilges will be sent home as they should be and those who honestly have a legitimate retirement income will be allowed to stay as they have been in the past.

[wobalt]

You’re not supposed to be supporting your wife! The funds are to support yourself during your one year stay.

Really. How they know how much money I would need?




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[oldrunner]

Does it count if my bank deposits amount to or exceed $5,000 USD per month but my wife withdraws $4,500 USD for living expenses that same month? It's more or less payback as I used to spend that money on wine; women and song, actually more like Whiskey and women and at my age and physical condition, I couldn't use the dough.

[jacko45k]

5 minutes ago, wobalt said:

Really. How they know how much money I would need?




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They come up with a number, you got it or more, good for you, if not,  please leave.

[elviajero]

7 minutes ago, wobalt said:

Really. How they know how much money I would need?




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Yes, really.

 

They don’t know and I doubt care. The rules are that anyone wanting to stay in Thailand with their Thai wife/child should have at least 40K baht pm income.

[JLCrab]

34 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

First Frame: image of a senior administrator, with an elite application on his desk for approval accompanied by a think brown envelope.  He is rubbing his hands together while browsing online for a new-car with eyes bugged-out and sinister smile.

Nah -- his brother-in-law owns the dealership.

[SooKee]

25 minutes ago, Pib said:

Yeap....a policy change of requiring the monthly international transfers will no doubt negatively impact those with passive income from Thai sources.  Just as those with "all" income from outside Thailand in needing to do one (or more) transfer per month in terms of fees, not needing Bt65/Bt40K per month to actually live on, etc.   Just a lot of things not good for many people if needing to do a monthly international transfer.

 

But TI is looking for the  "best" method that will minimize the number of ways to beat the system, maximize the probability people "really" have the required income, and it's easy for TI.  

  

Agreed, I was figuring it would go this way pretty much from the days of embassy letter announcements, simply because there aren't many (or even any) other viable options for TI that don't entail way too much attention to detail and the scrutiny of too many documents if they want to keep the income route open.

 

On a personal basis I've been doing the monthly transfers since I got here so it's no big deal for me personally, conscious it's the the best solution for may others but it is an alternative to the 800K deposit only route which they could have opted for.  The only fly in the ointment for me will be proving the source of income is from outside Thailand given the TW business model IF that ends up being a TI stipulation.  If the Kasikorn audit trail (either by statement and / or credit advice) won't stand up then it's either open an account at BKK Bank (that'll be a fun trawl around branches given how difficult it is now without a work permit) or try to find another cost effective means of sending over the monthly sums, including more trials with HSBC, that will show as an international tx.  Of course the best outcome will be that TI don't overthink the issue and look merely for a statement showing monthly deposits, end of; might be hoping for a bit much but not entirely beyond the realms of possibility (anything for an easy life), he said with fingers crossed.

Edited January 5, 2019 by SooKee

[jackdd]

48 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

First Frame: image of a senior administrator, with an elite application on his desk for approval accompanied by a think brown envelope.  He is rubbing his hands together while browsing online for a new-car with eyes bugged-out and sinister smile.

I don't think that the immigration officers get money from Thailand Elite visas. The company behind Thailand Elite is owned by the government, so the immigration officers will just follow the rules and don't try to get some extra money from them.

 

24 minutes ago, wobalt said:

Really. How they know how much money I would need?

It's not about what you actually need, but what you are supposed to spend if you want to be welcome in this country ????

Edited January 5, 2019 by jackdd

[ParadiseLost]

14 minutes ago, elviajero said:

If you’re married get an extension as the spouse of a Thai and you only need to transfer 40K pm.

Would that require leaving the country to work? If you extend and do not leave for an entire year, how to justify income?

 

Then, if you do have to leave all the time (appearances), why extend at all?

 

If there is no question asked about the retirement income source, will they really just accept married guys 40k per month transfers?

 

Say I am working here illegally, I can easily transfer money overseas and back. Claim I am working online...

 

Yes it will cost money to do this but it will take away the need to go through all their current BS to validate local income...