21 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

"That judgement is based on the experience of others who have done so."

 

Tell me when a major economic power has previously left a political union such as the EU. As far as I'm aware there is no precedence, and therefore nobody has the experience you refer to. 

 

 

Japan formed the East Asia Co Prosperity Sphere before WW2 but events that followed put the mockers on that. However Japan went on to be one of the most successful industrial and commercial nations in the history of the world. On its own without the EACPS.

 

Within 20 years the Japsters had all but flushed the British motor cycle industry down the toilet and had nearly put Harley Davidson out of business. Its car companies make more cars than those of any other nation on earth. Nearly everyone on earth has had Japanese made electrical and electronic products in their house at one time or another.

 

Not quite the same circumstances but it shows how a nation can succeed on its own if it has the will. The problem is that a Britain with many people having lost any work ethic and which is so divided as it has now become because of mass immigration may not be able to summon that will.

2 hours ago, yogi100 said:

It's not the leavers decision to make nor is it in their interest to attempt to make it so. Neither do they want one.

 

You remainites must clamour for another RFRD if you're actually sincere in your belief and you should finance it as well. The 2016 RFRD cost the British taxpeayer 129 million quid!

 

You want it you pay for it yourselves, the rest of us will just vote in it. The same way as we did before and so will our families and friends.

Have you any idea how much money has been wasted on no deal preparations, not to mention the £39 billion in the pipeline? 130 million quid would be a bargain to end this waste of money fiasco.

The result of the poll in the original post is flawed insofar as it ignores the silent voters. These are the people that made the unexpected difference in the referendum and would do so again.

Sent from my ASUS_X00HD using Tapatalk

34 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

"any given country does the bulk of it’s trade with neighbours"

Not quite true.  For example, in the top 10 countries that the US trades with the most, only 2 (Canada and Mexico) are in the Americas. The rest are in Asia and Europe. 

The UK's trade with the EU vs the RoW has fallen over the past 10 years or so, and is now something like 43% (from 55%).

 

You're also not accounting for the fact that EU countries will still trade with the UK.  A lot of these 'experts' seem to think we'll just suddenly stop trading with Europe. In fact with Sterling revalued the UK is even more competitive now. 

 

Lastly, you don't know what measures the UK government, BoE etc will take in the years following Brexit to make our economy stronger, and you don't know how the EU will perform without the UK. Too many unknowns! 

 

applies to Greenland too,

they don't make much satang from selling fish to Iceland

 

 

2 minutes ago, thaibry said:

The result of the poll in the original post is flawed insofar as it ignores the silent voters. These are the people that made the unexpected difference in the referendum and would do so again.

Sent from my ASUS_X00HD using Tapatalk
 

You make a very good point, many of whom were young people. There are around 1.5 million new voters, all young people. And over a million old people sadly departed since the vote. 

 

Leave would lose.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

applies to Greenland too,

they don't make much satang from selling fish to Iceland

 

 

Would that be because Icelandic waters are teaming with fish?

 

East Germany did not sell many Trabants to West Germany. 

 

8 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

Would that be because Icelandic waters are teaming with fish?

 

East Germany did not sell many Trabants to West Germany. 

Ah, Trabant! I remember a story of a dispute where a horse took a bite of a Trabant ????  Good old days with real news. 

4 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

There has always been an element of black economy, but in the UK it is tiny, a very small percentage of GDP. It exists everywhere, Donald Trump uses it on his building sites. But the vast majority of Eastern European’s working in the UK are doing so from within the system, paying taxes and spending money here ... doing jobs that Britons don’t want to do. 

 

I live in London and have spent most of my working life doing these so called 'jobs that Britons don't want to do' mainly in the building trade. The Jubilee line is part of the underground system and was built by Irish tunnelers and labourers working on the lump. You could only get on there if you were Irish.

 

Most sub contractors pay their employees cash in hand and in the interest of haste no questions are asked as often the work has to finished before the next phase can be started. For example bricklayers can't start till the footings are laid and the footings can't be laid till the plumbers have put in the drains. 

 

Lots of the workers are recruited by word of mouth from pals in a pub, are paid on a cash in spanner basis and you'd get laughed out of the door if you mentioned tax. The introduction of the CIS system made thing more awkward but did not make much difference. If you're broke and someone offers you 80 or even 50 quid in cash to do a days work your not going to look in the horses mouth are you.

 

The bigger companies can't aways get away with it so farm out the work to the subbies. By the time the tax man gets involved if he ever does these contractors are long gone. But the building has been erected as quickly and as cheaply as possible and the Inland Revenue often has to go and whistle for whatever it's owed.

 

But you probably know more about these things than I ever could so tell us all about it. Out of interest where do you live and what is or was your line of work.

6 minutes ago, yogi100 said:

Most sub contractors pay their employees cash in hand and in the interest of haste no questions are asked as often the work has to finished before the next phase can be started. For example bricklayers can't start till the footings are laid and the footings can't be laid till the plumbers have put in the drains. 

Are these employers Polish or perhaps British?

 

Slay the little guys while let the big fish swim away?

 

If Britain has a systematic problem in construction business, then it might be best to fix that problem, instead of put the blame to powerless ones?

 

Once all the EU workers are out of Britain, I'm not too sure if it will make the construction bosses and the subcontractors to make sure that everybody pays their taxes. Do you think that will happen?

32 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

Have you any idea how much money has been wasted on no deal preparations, not to mention the £39 billion in the pipeline? 130 million quid would be a bargain to end this waste of money fiasco.

 

"Have you any idea how much money has been wasted on no deal preparations,"

 

I haven't got a clue, enlighten me. I bet you don't know either.

 

The civil servants and politicians are governmental full time employees on salaries which they'd be getting irrespective of any Brexit so it probably would not come to much apart from possibly a bit of overtime that they can manage to fiddle and which the tax payer might have to fork out for. It might cost every one in the country and extra 10 or 20p on their taxes!

40 minutes ago, yogi100 said:

Japan formed the East Asia Co Prosperity Sphere before WW2 but events that followed put the mockers on that. However Japan went on to be one of the most successful industrial and commercial nations in the history of the world. On its own without the EACPS.

 

Within 20 years the Japsters had all but flushed the British motor cycle industry down the toilet and had nearly put Harley Davidson out of business. Its car companies make more cars than those of any other nation on earth. Nearly everyone on earth has had Japanese made electrical and electronic products in their house at one time or another.

 

Not quite the same circumstances but it shows how a nation can succeed on its own if it has the will. The problem is that a Britain with many people having lost any work ethic and which is so divided as it has now become because of mass immigration may not be able to summon that will.

You are, in my mind, pointing to smth very very important in your post.

We are approaching the demise of western dominance and eastern takeover.

 

Why? very simply and banally put the easterners are hungry the westerners are satisfied,

they (westerners) by and large do not fight for knowledge-excellence anymore,

they think they are born with superiority - the easterners are hungry and very hard workers

 

just read the barstool threads here on TVF re how westerners think about Thais in general, Thai politicians and

Thai government, and the like, scorned by UKers, but you are not even capable of carrying out a Brexit in an orderly

fashion

 

the new Asian Bank is a clear signal, that the west is not needed anymore

China quite simply grabbing some islands and shoals here and there claiming this is China,

couldn't care less about UN - next will be China grabbing Taiwan - consequences? zilch

face it, lose is nigh, US less than UK and EU though because US is, still, so big and rich and powerful - might change

 

UK, in good company, is on the downward pointing slope unless you manage to do some

very very major changeover in your management of the foggy islands

29 minutes ago, yogi100 said:

 

I live in London and have spent most of my working life doing these so called 'jobs that Britons don't want to do' mainly in the building trade. The Jubilee line is part of the underground system and was built by Irish tunnelers and labourers working on the lump. You could only get on there if you were Irish.

 

Most sub contractors pay their employees cash in hand and in the interest of haste no questions are asked as often the work has to finished before the next phase can be started. For example bricklayers can't start till the footings are laid and the footings can't be laid till the plumbers have put in the drains. 

 

Lots of the workers are recruited by word of mouth from pals in a pub, are paid on a cash in spanner basis and you'd get laughed out of the door if you mentioned tax. The introduction of the CIS system made thing more awkward but did not make much difference. If you're broke and someone offers you 80 or even 50 quid in cash to do a days work your not going to look in the horses mouth are you.

 

The bigger companies can't aways get away with it so farm out the work to the subbies. By the time the tax man gets involved if he ever does these contractors are long gone. But the building has been erected as quickly and as cheaply as possible and the Inland Revenue often has to go and whistle for whatever it's owed.

 

But you probably know more about these things than I ever could so tell us all about it. Out of interest where do you live and what is or was your line of work.

seriously yogi100,

do people work for 50/80 quid a week building underground in UK today?

 

 

9 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

seriously yogi100,

do people work for 50/80 quid a week building underground in UK today?

 

 

He does say day which even if did say week is pretty obvious for those that live in the real world

1 hour ago, yogi100 said:

I know what I mean. I'm not sure that you do.

 

The LEL was led by A K Chesterton.

 

G K Chesterton would have had a bit of a problem leading the LEL which was founded in 1954.

GK had died in 1936. Eighteen years earlier!

There you go again. You should know by now that any facts SW has are made up on the spur of the moment and bear little relation to reality. Besides any fact you quote to him mean nothing but fake facts.

3 minutes ago, oilinki said:

Are these employers Polish or perhaps British?

 

Slay the little guys while let the big fish swim away?

 

If Britain has a systematic problem in construction business, then it might be best to fix that problem, instead of put the blame to powerless ones?

 

Once all the EU workers are out of Britain, I'm not too sure if it will make the construction bosses and the subcontractors to make sure that everybody pays their taxes. Do you think that will happen?

 

Are these employers Polish or perhaps British?

 

The employers are mainly British but in a cosmopolitan nation like the UK you never can tell nowadays. Many homes in London are now owned by foreigners. The blokes doing the work were all British or Irish when I was in the game but are mostly Eastern Europeans now, in London anyway. Just listen to the languages that are being spoken next time you walk past a conversion or a building site, that'll tell you all you need to know.

 

Once all the EU workers are out of Britain,

 

How do you know that all the EU workers are going to be out of Britain? as far as I know nothing has been decided yet. But I'll bet that if you stop the benefits of many of the layabouts in London and force 'em to go to work you'll have to do so at gunpoint. The antics they got up to in the Brixton Riots and then again in 2011 will look like the Notting Hill Carnival in comparison.

 

Do you think that will happen?

 

I've never met a working man who'd pay tax if he did not have to but those who work for legitimate companies often have no choice if it's stopped at source. Private work carried out for members of the public is often done so with no questions asked. You want it done as cheaply as possible so you're as worried about paying tax as the workman is.

 

If you ask a painter to paint your house you ask him how much, when can he start and how long will it take and if you agree you tell him to get on with it. If you start bringing tax men or VAT into the conversation you'll likely not see him again. The same goes for interior decorating and fitting kitchens and bathrooms etc. And even new roofs!

1 hour ago, melvinmelvin said:

don't understand, its all the same thing

 

Not quite.  A superiority complex usually comes from an inferior person / entity. If as stated the UK is big, powerful etc., then the UK is not inferior. 

1 hour ago, AlexRich said:

 

The problem is that the UK already trades with every other country to some extent ... China, India, etc. Being in the EU did not stop them from doing so? Germany do a great deal of trade with China, being in the EU does not impede them. So what great change is going to happen after Brexit? If we are on WTO terms and implement John Redmond’s “cunning plan” to reduce tariffs to zero, what trade deal can we negotiate? We have nothing left to bargain with. 

 

The majority of analysts who look at this believe that the UK will be poorer and grow below it’s future potential ... but you know better?

No, I don't know better.  Neither do you, and neither do those analysts who favour us staying in the EU. 

I totally understand the benefits of free trade with EU member states. What I'm saying is that the proportion of the UK's total trade with the EU vs the RoW is shrinking, and so is becoming less relevant. If that trend continues, AND our government has the freedom to change trade policy for countries outside of the EU, we could see long term economic benefits from leaving.

But as I say, there are too many moving parts and too many unknowns for anyone to claim they know the outcome. For example, how will the EU fare without the UK, combined with the ongoing issues around Greece, Italy, Spain etc.? 

31 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

You are, in my mind, pointing to smth very very important in your post.

We are approaching the demise of western dominance and eastern takeover.

 

Why? very simply and banally put the easterners are hungry the westerners are satisfied,

they (westerners) by and large do not fight for knowledge-excellence anymore,

they think they are born with superiority - the easterners are hungry and very hard workers

 

just read the barstool threads here on TVF re how westerners think about Thais in general, Thai politicians and

Thai government, and the like, scorned by UKers, but you are not even capable of carrying out a Brexit in an orderly

fashion

 

the new Asian Bank is a clear signal, that the west is not needed anymore

China quite simply grabbing some islands and shoals here and there claiming this is China,

couldn't care less about UN - next will be China grabbing Taiwan - consequences? zilch

face it, lose is nigh, US less than UK and EU though because US is, still, so big and rich and powerful - might change

 

UK, in good company, is on the downward pointing slope unless you manage to do some

very very major changeover in your management of the foggy islands

I sometimes used to have reason to visit Industrial estates all over London. Many of the units were empty even back then as are larger factories now in many parts of the UK if they've not been demolished.

 

A drive through Thailand to Cambodia tells a different story with thriving businesses like factories, plant hire and container depots all over the place. And all newly constructed as well.

 

When I first ever came to Bangkok in 1984 it was a sea of corrugated tin and plywood huts which I was shocked to discover were people's homes. These huts are long gone now and their occupants now live in modern blocks of flats.

 

They're progressing while we are going backwards with homelessness at an all time high and food banks giving out grub to the needy some of who are working but for such poor money that they apparently need financial help to put food on the table. A junkie or an alkie receives priority when it comes to public housing so they get housed before essential workers like train and bus drivers and nurses. Little wonder they call it Broken Britain!

1 hour ago, AlexRich said:

Have you any idea how much money has been wasted on no deal preparations, not to mention the £39 billion in the pipeline? 130 million quid would be a bargain to end this waste of money fiasco.

Have you any idea how much of EU budget money is wasted by the EU bureaucrats every year? That figure would dwarf our Brexit preparation costs. Are you happy that some of our money goes towards the Creative Europe programme?

The MP's expenses scandal was a huge deal in the UK. Can you imagine us ever getting close enough to the EU machine to investigate Brussels + Strasbourg expenses? Another problem with having a ruling body that's out of reach of the man on the street. 

3 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

Have you any idea how much of EU budget money is wasted by the EU bureaucrats every year? That figure would dwarf our Brexit preparation costs. Are you happy that some of our money goes towards the Creative Europe programme?

Those bureaucrats are doing the horrifyingly boring job of preparing EU wide standard for all of us. This also reduces the work on member countries, which don't individually need to do the same work over and over again.. 28 times currently. 

 

For sure there are things, which could be scrapped off, but overall it's beneficial and cost saving for all of us. 

 

One example, closer to you home is the  European Medicine Agency, which approves all the medicines to be sold EU wide. This agency is located in London and will be moving to the EU side once UK exits our union.

 

These are the things where EU money goes. Just an example of much larger web of common and practical work done for all of us.

54 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

seriously yogi100,

do people work for 50/80 quid a week building underground in UK today?

 

 

 

No not today. When they were building the Jubilee Line 40 years ago they got at least 70 quid a day tax paid. That was great money back then. They were getting 350 quid a week for 5 days and more if they worked 7 days which they often did as it had to be built as quickly as possible.

 

People work for 50 /80 quid a day all over the UK but not building underground tunnels. 80 quid a day is 400 quid a week and if it's in your hand it's not bad money. 250 quid a week is not to be sneezed at especially if you're skint and can't get anything better. You could not afford to have holidays in Thailand on it but it's better than a kick in the arse.

 

I'd imagine a tunneler today could possibly be looking at 1,000 quid a week but as far as I know no tunnels are being built at present in London which is where you normally get the highest wages in the UK.

Still feel much happier in the EU with all its shortcomings as opposed to this third rate shower in Westminster.

 

If we leave I will blame the Trotskyite Anurak clad dwarf Corbyn

13 hours ago, Stargrazer9889 said:

The UK existed before the great EU, I have confidence that its future will be okay, after the first hard bumps. Belgium just wants the money, does not care a dam for the UK people. my opinion anyway.

 

Geezer

the other 26 members dont seem to mind paying their membership,it must be a british thing,also none of them other 26 nations have an overseas aid budget the size of britains,it seems stopping this would be a better money saving idea than leaving the EU,you cannot educate pork????

4 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Still feel much happier in the EU with all its shortcomings as opposed to this third rate shower in Westminster.

 

If we leave I will blame the Trotskyite Anurak clad dwarf Corbyn

me to,our lot are much the worse of the 2 evils

1 hour ago, baansgr said:

He does say day which even if did say week is pretty obvious for those that live in the real world

still

50 quid day is kinda meager

 

 

 

10 minutes ago, bomber said:

the other 26 members dont seem to mind paying their membership,it must be a british thing,also none of them other 26 nations have an overseas aid budget the size of britains,it seems stopping this would be a better money saving idea than leaving the EU,you cannot educate pork????

I have just phoned Peppa pig and he says there are 28 countries in the EU.????

1 hour ago, baansgr said:

He does say day which even if did say week is pretty obvious for those that live in the real world

still

50 quid day is kinda meagre

 

 

 

39 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

Have you any idea how much of EU budget money is wasted by the EU bureaucrats every year? That figure would dwarf our Brexit preparation costs. Are you happy that some of our money goes towards the Creative Europe programme?

The MP's expenses scandal was a huge deal in the UK. Can you imagine us ever getting close enough to the EU machine to investigate Brussels + Strasbourg expenses? Another problem with having a ruling body that's out of reach of the man on the street. 

 

I'm happy with the current arrangement ... the amounts are a small percentage of our GDP. We've lost more in economic potential since the vote ... and we'll lose even more with a hard Brexit ... so it's money well spent. If you voted leave you voted for the UK to be poorer ... we'll lose more than we save from membership fees. 

2 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

still

50 quid day is kinda meager

 

 

 

Says the Norwegian!

https://www.fastcompany.com/40535591/this-robotic-wheelbarrow-will-follow-farmworkers-as-they-pick-berries

 

Smarter than the average wheel barrow! I can see the stop button...