Does being rejected for an extension make it dicier to then go to an agent

[Jingthing]

This is an academic question that I've been wondering about that I think may have more relevance for more people in this new era of embassy letters having been cut off for some major nationalities (and potentially more to come). 

 

I'm speaking of income applications (and also combo ones) attempted without embassy letters. There is a lot of uncertainty about their enforcement as they are so new and we're getting mixed messages from the front lines, especially for combo ones.

 

So thus this topic.

 

Suppose you file an application for an income method (or combo) without an embassy letter and for whatever reason it is rejected. Perhaps you are told you needed to do a full bank seasoned application instead but so sorry you're now too late.

 

So what to do?

 

Try to start all over of course if you can with a new O visa (major PITA)

 

(OR)

 

Go to an agent that can hook a brother up with an 800K bank application seasoned in a way that isn't at all Kosher, but heck, some people seem to have been doing it that way for years and keep saying people that don't are uptight fools that don't understand the "real" TIT. So what's your hangup?

 

So my 65,000 baht question here is -- would doing an agency application with all its real and insinuated non compliance be riskier or even impossible if they have a recent record of a rejected but legitimate application attempt (income method without embassy letter)? 

 

I've never read anyone ask that question here before. So here it is. I'm asking for my Aunt Fanny in Dubuque.

Edited January 28, 2019 by Jingthing

[BestB]

Every dog claims to be an agent in Thailand. If you find realagent with real connections then everything is possible for a price ????

 

 

[scubascuba3]

If the legit method fails then go to an agent, better that way round

[quandow]

I have heard stories of an agent that has been doing this for years. He said it's still business as usual. Of course, this is illegal and I would NEVER recommend such an act.

[fforest1]

If you thought the odds were not in your favor probably best to use a agent the first time....

[Jingthing]

Nobody seems to have any actual information regarding my specific question.

It is not about using agents in general. There have been numerous topics about that before.

 

It's about whether if you did a recent application that was rejected, would that make using an agent more of a risk or not? Presumably immigration would have a record of a recent rejection and then soon after there would be this agent application using a different method.

[onera1961]

9 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

It's about whether if you did a recent application that was rejected,

To make an educated guess, I would like to know what happens when a extension is rejected? Is it noted on your passport. Are you asked to leave the country immediately? If it is marked in a passport, the agents may demand higher prices because they would know that you're desperate. 

Edited January 28, 2019 by onera1961

[Jingthing]

4 minutes ago, onera1961 said:

To make an educated guess, I would like to know what happens when a extension is rejected? Is it noted on your passport. Are you asked to leave the country immediately? If it is marked in a passport, the agents may demand higher prices because they would know that you're desperate. 

I assume it's not marked in your passport.

Maybe some of the agent customers can ask their good buddy agents this question.

Not that even they would necessarily know the answer.

[youreavinalaff]

Go to your immigration office beforehand. Ask them what they want. Problem solved.

 

 

[ubonjoe]

33 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I assume it's not marked in your passport.

If you make an application and it is not accepted there is no record of it in your passport or anywhere else.

If it was accepted and you paid the 1900 baht fee and it was denied you would get a stamp granting you 7 days to leave the country.

[lamyai3]

6 hours ago, Jingthing said:

So my 65,000 baht question here is -- would doing an agency application with all its real and insinuated non compliance be riskier or even impossible if they have a recent record of a rejected but legitimate application attempt (income method without embassy letter)? 

My guess is that it would be processed similar to any other agent brokered application regardless. I doubt anything's on file citing an official rejection, just a "sorry you don't have the documents here so we can't process it today"

It's probably happened many times in the past, an applicant has shown up and got rejected for some reason, and then fallen back on an agent.

 

Edit. Just saw Ubonjoe's reply posted a few minutes ago which seems to be saying the same thing. 

Edited January 29, 2019 by lamyai3

[notamember]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

Nobody seems to have any actual information regarding my specific question.

It is not about using agents in general. There have been numerous topics about that before.

 

It's about whether if you did a recent application that was rejected, would that make using an agent more of a risk or not? Presumably immigration would have a record of a recent rejection and then soon after there would be this agent application using a different method.

it would not be a problem

[JackThompson]

3 hours ago, onera1961 said:

To make an educated guess, I would like to know what happens when a extension is rejected? Is it noted on your passport. Are you asked to leave the country immediately? If it is marked in a passport, the agents may demand higher prices because they would know that you're desperate. 

No - just apply well-before your extension is about to expire.  Most offices allow 30-days early - some 45 days.   This allows time to react.

 

3 hours ago, Jingthing said:

It's about whether if you did a recent application that was rejected, would that make using an agent more of a risk or not? Presumably immigration would have a record of a recent rejection and then soon after there would be this agent application using a different method.

No record.  And if they remembered your passport, the guy who rejected you would probably get a bonus-payment for a "job well done" - generating another agent-envelope.

[tgeezer]

I wonder about dispensing with an agent after multiple years. If the situation is as corrupt as people say this should be a problem.


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

[Jingthing]

3 hours ago, garyk said:

Same here, Got my extension a couple weeks ago. Asked the head man in charge, 800K or adios. 

He would not even talk about it, as soon as I brought up the combo method or anything else. It was point blank 800K or leave.

Did you mention with or without embassy letter?

It's obvious that combo method without embassy letter is especially problematical right now but combo method applications with embassy letters have been standard for many, many years.

[Jingthing]

So with agent applications, the applicant doesn't ever actually show up in the office, right?

 

The consensus here seems to be that there wouldn't be additional risk to do an agent application after a recent application.

[JackThompson]

21 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

So with agent applications, the applicant doesn't ever actually show up in the office, right?

 

The consensus here seems to be that there wouldn't be additional risk to do an agent application after a recent application.

Varies by agent/office.  With some agents, you make a brief appearance to take a picture.  Other agents offer "mail in service," which clearly doesn't require this.  Some doing the mail-in routine (usually to a Pattaya agent) report having done this repeatedly for years. 

[farangx]

25 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

So with agent applications, the applicant doesn't ever actually show up in the office, right?

 

The consensus here seems to be that there wouldn't be additional risk to do an agent application after a recent application.

I hope this boost your confidence using an agent.  I don't see any problem using one, not that I would.

 

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, farangx said:

I hope this boost your confidence using an agent.  I don't see any problem using one, not that I would.

 

I don't ever want to use an agent. I don't wish to be involved in corruption if I can help it. Personally, I will continue to do the 800K bank method and not even bothering structuring monthly imports. I had been planning to switch to the combo method with embassy letter this year but as I won't be able to get an embassy letter, I'm watching what will happen with enforcement on such applications. If the reports are very encouraging, then I may start structuring monthly imports for a later application. 

As I said in the O.P. this is only an academic question for me.

I can imagine lots of people preparing for an income (including combo) method without embassy letter totally legitimately being told we're not accepting those or too bad, during one month the import code was domestic, or 100 other technical "reasons" to reject. Then such people will be in a bad place. Too late to do the bank method seasoned so they could then try to start over with a new O (not even possible for everyone) or look for an easier out, an agent application. So I was curious how that might be seen at immigration, a recent rejection and then magically a totally different kind of application using an agent. 

Edited January 29, 2019 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, JackThompson said:

Varies by agent/office.  With some agents, you make a brief appearance to take a picture.  Other agents offer "mail in service," which clearly doesn't require this.  Some doing the mail-in routine (usually to a Pattaya agent) report having done this repeatedly for years. 

Well that's interesting because it is relevant to my question here.

If you first visited in person, went through a formal application sitting at the desk showing all your paperwork, and then you were rejected, it seems to me there is a good chance they would remember you. So you come in a few days later with an agent application showing financial documents that they would know for a fact were not even possible to be legitimately yours because they just saw your actual ones recently, trying a different method.

That seems to me to be really pushing it.

Yes I know they know it's all a $$$ game when you use an agent, but I'm not fully confident they don't have limits even within the context of that game.

Edited January 29, 2019 by Jingthing

[Olmate]

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I don't ever want to use an agent. I don't wish to be involved in corruption if I can help it. Personally, I will continue to do the 800K bank method and not even bothering structuring monthly imports. I had been planning to switch the combo method with embassy letter this year but as I won't be able to get an embassy letter, I'm watching what will happen with enforcement on such applications. If the reports are very encouraging, then I may start structuring monthly imports for a later application. 

As I said in the O.P. this is only an academic question for me.

I can imagine lots of people preparing for an income method without embassy letter totally legitimately being told we're not accepting those or too bad, during one month the import code was domestic, or 100 other "reasons" to reject. Then such people will be in a bad place. Too late to do the bank method seasoned so they could then try to start over (not even possible for everyone) or look for an easier out, an agent application. So I was curious how that might be seen at immigration, a recent rejection and then magically a totally different kind of application using an agent. 

They are very understanding! Knowing the new regs have us jumping to the desired option your agent extension will be welcomed with open Alms..

[garyk]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

Did you mention with or without embassy letter?

It's obvious that combo method without embassy letter is especially problematical right now but combo method applications with embassy letters have been standard for many, many years.

I am an American so I wanted to know what would be accepted next year for an extension of stay.

So, since I will not have a letter next year I did not ask about that.

Regards

[Jingthing]

8 minutes ago, Olmate said:

They are very understanding! Knowing the new regs have us jumping to the desired option your agent extension will be welcomed with open Alms..

Yeah sure.

I guess you're not getting the subtext here.

Let's get real. The agent option without underlying actual financials is corruption. There could be a crackdown at any time. TIT fans will tell you confidently, no you don't understand Thailand, that will never happen, it's all about the money here.

But it still could.

So if you're gaming on this corruption, I'm wondering/suggesting that from the POV of people trying to protect their gravy train, accepting an agent application that they just rejected using completely different financial documents (the rejected ones being real) may be seen as not worth the risk. It seems to me such applications would potentially be subject to being easier to catch for anyone actually trying to enforce a crackdown, and the participants knowing that too, might not want to touch them. 

 

 

Edited January 29, 2019 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

6 minutes ago, garyk said:

I am an American so I wanted to know what would be accepted next year for an extension of stay.

So, since I will not have a letter next year I did not ask about that.

Regards

Assuming you don't have an embassy letter from last year for an income method, so too late for that.

 

Sure thing --

800K in a Thai bank account seasoned for two months for the first extension, and three for subsequent

 

Full income method --

Start importing at least 65K from abroad into a Thai bank account. Every month. Start now. Make sure there are codes in your bank book showing foreign imports.

 

This is a new method without embassy letter. Enforcement realities not yet clear. Normally it should show monthly going back 12 months but a "leniency memo" suggests to officers they can accept fewer then 12 months the first year only. 

 

OR

 

Combo method without embassy letter

I won't even suggest guidelines for that. I can't read the minds of immigration and they haven't either. So that would be much less certain than full income without embassy letter, at this point it time anyway.

[madmen]

Nothing lasts forever and thailand continues to develop. Who would have though they would outlaw foot path stalls?
But they did

When they do eventually ban agents there won't be any notice.

[Olmate]

1 minute ago, madmen said:

Nothing lasts forever and thailand continues to develop. Who would have though they would outlaw foot path stalls?
But they did

When they do eventually ban agents there won't be any notice.

But the stalls are still there...So there,s the answer

[Jingthing]

10 minutes ago, madmen said:

Nothing lasts forever and thailand continues to develop. Who would have though they would outlaw foot path stalls?
But they did

When they do eventually ban agents there won't be any notice.

I am not predicting when or if the agent route will go away. But it could at any moment. It's a bigger issue than this topic, but I do wonder if/when that happens do the people that use such services (and let's face it, almost everyone that does except the painfully naive lacks innocent intent) could be legally culpable after the fact of getting extension stamps. Happy consequences such as deportation/legal charges/etc. If you participate in corruption even as a customer, it seems to me you potentially put yourself in a legally vulnerable position.

 

To add proactively, I reckon some people might respond to this, why are you talking about this? Now they will crackdown. Now the secret is out. You're ruining it for everyone. What secret? Do you think this isn't already well known at the very highest levels anyway and has been for decades? 

Edited January 29, 2019 by Jingthing

[Olmate]

17 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Yeah sure.

I guess you're not getting the subtext here.

Let's get real. The agent option without underlying actual financials is corruption. There could be a crackdown at any time. TIT fans will tell you confidently, no you don't understand Thailand, that will never happen, it's all about the money here.

But it still could.

So if you're gaming on this corruption, I'm wondering/suggesting that from the POV of people trying to protect their gravy train, accepting an agent application that they just rejected using completely different financial documents (the rejected ones being real) may be seen as not worth the risk. It seems to me such applications would potentially be subject to being easier to catch for anyone actually trying to enforce a crackdown, and the participants knowing that too, might not want to touch them. 

 

 

In your opening you list only the 2 available options left..new OA or agent.If that’s TI view also then they aware you shall choose either 1 or 2. I think they would prefer to keep it local.You did ask for our thoughts!

[Jingthing]

Just now, Olmate said:

In your opening you list only the 2 available options left..new OA or agent.If that’s TI view also then they aware you shall choose either 1 or 2. I think they would prefer to keep it local.You did ask for our thoughts!

I never said a new O-A (from home country) but that would be an option as one path to start over. I think the more common start over choice is getting a new 90 day O visa in either a neighboring nation or as part of the two step process in the Thailand with the first step a conversion of an entry stamp or tourist visa to a 90 day O. 

[madmen]

But the stalls are still there...So there,s the answer

Dont want to get off topic to far.. suffice to say lower Sukhumvit was ground zero
Apart from a few stalls still there pushed up against walls 95‰ are gone.