Expats in Thailand considering moving to Latin America prompted by Thai visa changes

CaptainJack · March 8, 2019

5 hours ago, Jingthing said:

I really don't know exactly how it's done. I reckon the situation will be somewhat different for each target nation. But that is one of main purposes of this topic. Gathering reports over time of what works and what doesn't work for the different countries that do require the reports from Thailand. I can say when they are required in Latin America almost definitely they will need an apostle and official translation. A major pain of course but the good news is this requirement will be only one time.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

Two days to go....

I've been thinking about what the issues would be regarding obtaining a police clearance and good conduct letter.

It occurs to me that the type of visa is not likely the real issue. I think it will be how long an expatriate has lived in Thailand and whether they have held themselves out as residents, especially if in their home countries, they have formally notified government agencies and other entities that they live in Thailand.

In that I never formally moved my legal residence from Texas, and other then transferring money to an offshore banking account, Thailand was never a place I would have to call "home". I have traveled to over a dozen different countries, so for a month or more in the last few years. Were those residential relocations to another country? No, they were travel.

Whichever Latin American nation one might want to make a future home, I think it will be a potential mess getting the required documents from Thailand, or any other country outside ones home nation. As is often the case, it will probably get down to the individual IO as to what is acceptable and what is not.

Even in the USA, when I got my last security clearance, the highest one I held, I had to list every place I ever lived since birth. That took quite a lot of research. I'm lucky my parents were still alive to answer questions.

I guess it eventually gets down to how attractive the candidate is to immigration. I have read that for Mexico, if you are investing money in the economy, whether purchasing property or you have a large amount of savings and disposable income, the vetting process is much easier.

I'll ask around in my travel when I meet any expatriates, although, I suspect most information will be obsolete.

Need to talk to recent expats....

Edited March 8, 2019 by CaptainJack
Correct a format problem.

Mike Teavee · March 8, 2019

5 minutes ago, CaptainJack said:

Whichever Latin American nation one might want to make a future home, I think it will be a potential mess getting the required documents from Thailand,

At least (messy or not) you have the option for getting the documents from Thailand, after 10 years living in Singapore I'm screwed if they insist on getting Police clearance from every country you've lived in for the past X years as Singapore will only provide Police clearance for Citizens & PRs

Yes I should have took PR years ago but it would have cost me a % of my salary for what to me at the time was worth nothing (much though I love the place, I wouldn't live here if I wasn't working & if I am working they sort my Employment Pass out)... Turns out that decision might bite me in the ass (am > 50 now, no chance of getting PR unless I marry my Singapore GF - So no chance of getting PR then) when it comes to looking to move elsewhere.

Incidentally, when I looked into SRRV for Philippines, not being able to get Police Clearance for Singapore could present a challenge, heard similar for guys who are trying to move from SG to Aus.

CaptainJack · March 8, 2019

1 minute ago, Mike Teavee said:

At least (messy or not) you have the option for getting the documents from Thailand, after 10 years living in Singapore I'm screwed if they insist on getting Police clearance from every country you've lived in for the past X years as Singapore will only provide Police clearance for Citizens & PRs

Yes I should have took PR years ago but it would have cost me a % of my salary for what to me at the time was worth nothing (much though I love the place, I wouldn't live here if I wasn't working & if I am working they sort my Employment Pass out)... Turns out that decision might bite me in the ass (am > 50 now, no chance of getting PR unless I marry my Singapore GF - So no chance of getting PR then) when it comes to looking to move elsewhere.

Incidentally, when I looked into SRRV for Philippines, not being able to get Police Clearance for Singapore could present a challenge, heard similar for guys who are trying to move from SG to Aus.

Yikes! Sorry bro. I think these are all things none of us ever considered years ago. I was reading about how much a problem it can be yesterday just getting through immigration in another country if one has a "deportation " stamp for an overstay. A lot for anyone to think about....

Jingthing · March 8, 2019

55 minutes ago, CaptainJack said:

Two days to go....

I've been thinking about what the issues would be regarding obtaining a police clearance and good conduct letter.

It occurs to me that the type of visa is not likely the real issue. I think it will be how long an expatriate has lived in Thailand and whether they have held themselves out as residents, especially if in their home countries, they have formally notified government agencies and other entities that they live in Thailand.be obsolete.

...

Yes, in your particular case, you can convincedly assert you never really were a resident in Thailand. That said, I would suggest someone leaving even with your shorter time in Thailand and knowing they were soon after moving to a specific Latin American country to try to get the document while still in Thailand just in case. Of course you'd need to figure out exactly where to get it in Thailand and what to do about apostille and official translation. But you're not here anymore and you don't know which country you might move to, or when. So sure when you do decide apply without the Thai document and hope you don't meet an officer that demands it, which of course could happen.

In cases like mine where the Thailand residence has been so many years, short of a successful fraud attempt. I don't think that step could really be avoided.

madmen · March 8, 2019

I used to live in Buenos Aires. Fascinating place with gorgeous women, and some of the best cuisine on the planet! Highly recommend.

What's the point of gorgeous women if all the men like Antonio bandaros?

madmen · March 8, 2019

No need to rehash why. I left my short first attempt at becoming an expatriate in Thailand on January 8, 2019, after 9 months. On the way out, I stopped in the Philippines and visited a fellow retired police detective who moved there with his Philippines wife. It was not for me.

A week break exploring Sydney and the Blue Mountains, then 3 weeks on the south island of New Zealand, and back to the USA, rest, recover, rethink and Monday I fly first to Mexico for a few weeks or month to see how it feels compared to 100's of trips and vacations there, now as a possible retirement place to call home.

Then to Costa Rica, Columbia and Panama. I have researched the visa requirements, costs, hoops to jump through and I easily can meet them all.

I board my flight Monday, March 11th and fly to Merida, Mexico, my first stop.

I picked Mexico first because it is only a 7 hour flight with a connection in Houston. That, and I get a 6 month tourist visa on arrival. That is included in my airfare. I can fly direct to Costa Rica too.

As I explore the possibilities, I'll drop in and report on anything I think is useful.

Captain Jack.....

You sure? If I recall you did an abrupt expat u turn out of Thailand because you couldn't afford health insurance. But you easy qualify for it every where else. Care to elaborate?

Jingthing · March 8, 2019

About health insurance.

In some Latin American nations it is possible to buy into the national health systems.

Definitely in Ecuador though the actual cost for expats is currently a grey area, at least for me.

Possibly in Mexico, though age and/or preexisting conditions may block it.

I think others as well, perhaps Uruguay, but of course anyone serious needs to do their own personal research and due diligence on such matters.

Jingthing · March 8, 2019

Because at this point I am most interested in Colombia, so I am going to share my current understanding of the CURRENT retirement visa rules for Colombia.

If you are interested in a retirement visa for Colombia, don't be a fool and trust my word for this. You'll need to pursue this yourself and see what's up if and when you actually do this.

Based on my current understanding, there is some very good and also some not so good news (to me) about the Colombian retirement visa.

This info is going to be USA-centric so be warned. You can project the USA info to your home country. Maybe.

You can apply for this visa in the USA (or probably your home country) at a Colombian embassy or consulate.

You can apply for this online.

https://tramitesmre.cancilleria.gov.co/tramites/enlinea/solicitarVisa.xhtml

You can apply for this by engaging a visa lawyer in Colombia. I have two sources that the fee is not that expensive for the lawyer (perhaps 250 USD) so could be worth it.

Warning -- once you have the visa you must get a cedula in Colombia within 15 days. If you fail to do that, the fine will be very large (for example 1700 USD).

I don't know if the 15 days start from when you get the visa abroad or when you enter Colombia with that new visa. Obviously it would be very unreasonable for the count to start on the day you get the visa abroad, but I don't know, and if you get the visa abroad, you need to know, because if it's based on the visa date, you'll probably want to get it initially in Colombia.

If you get the visa abroad your social security benefits letter will need to have an apostille and officially translated via the U.S. State Department.

I don't know about the online application for that.

However, GREAT NEWS, if you start the application in Colombia you will not need an apostille. You simply need to have the U.S. embassy (or your visa lawyer so you won't have to travel to Bogota) officialize the social security benefits letters that you can print online from MySSA account or obtain another way.

Here is the list of required documents for application --

Passport (180 days left, two blank pages)

Copy of passport data page

Copy of last stamp of entry into Colombia (you do want to visit there at least once, right?!?)

Proof of pension (already detailed above)

Amount must be three times the current minimum monthly salary (currently under 900 USD)

Passport photos (not going to give specs but online applications would have technical specs as well)

Please note comparing to Thailand there is no requirement for any of these --

A Colombian bank account

Showing money in Colombia or elsewhere

Importing even one peso into Colombia (though of course you will to live there)

Did you notice something almost too good to be true?

I have now looked at two credible sources of the required documents list and there is no mention of a required police record document from your home country, where you've lived for the last five years, or anywhere else!

It can be assumed they're going to run you through an international criminal database they may have, so this is not about actual criminals slipping in. It's about avoiding the pain of getting these documents.

HOWEVER, it's entirely possible that this is not required coming from the USA or other western countries and perhaps it is if they can see residence history in Thailand. But at least it's sounds like definitely good news for people that haven't lived outside the USA or other western countries in the last five years.

Now you will read a lot of links that give old information saying the Colombia retirement visa is only for one year. Those are all wrong now. The visa is for a generous three years. Then you get another one for three years. After five years you then apply for a resident visa or you could just keep applying every three years for new retirement visas.

Now I am newly confused about the resident visa.

I was sure I read before that after 5 years on retirement you can get a permanent residence status. I recently read something that might be obsolete saying that's only 5 years at a time.

Probably not something to obsess about when applying for a first 3 year visa, but could be very important later.

I think afer five years, you can apply for Colombian citizenship, which will require Spanish language and a test, but wait, if you're over 65 the language and test requirements are waived.

Now what if you have a lower level pension and the requirements based on increases in minimum wage and also exchange rate going against you makes you ineligible for your next three year retirement visa? Well, there are reports that if you're already there, they still approve you. In other words grandfathering but that is probably not an official policy.

So you can see there is good and bad news in all this.

In Peru for example if approved you get your "permanent" status upon a successful first application.

The Colombia application while generous with the three year chunks and based on my current understanding probably the EASIEST retirement visa application in Latin America, does not offer anywhere near such a quick path to permanent residence.

I do see it as a good sign that apparently this retirement visa process is so simple, quick, and not onerous. That's a sign of a country that is being reasonable and truly OPEN to foreigners. No welcome party but not months and months of bureaucratic nightmares that you may have in Ecuador, Peru, and sorry I've read horror stories about dealing with some immigration offices in Mexico as well. On the other hand that crazy high fine for not getting your cedula fast enough is not exactly a warm and fuzzy.

So it's a mixed bag.

As I've said I'm not trying to oversell or undersell living in Latin America or a specific country in Latin America. I don't know of any earthly paradises that will have a permanent residence stamp and marching band for every Tom, Dick, and Hairy pensioner that arrives.

Cheers.

Edited March 8, 2019 by Jingthing

GinBoy2 · March 8, 2019

I'm, still rooting for Columbia.

We went down a couple of weeks ago to visit my cousin, now post all the troubles it's a fantastic place

Now I'd move there in a second, but being hispanic and speaking Spanish (although my cousin calls it gringo Spanish lol) it's easy for me. Mrs G, not so much.

It's not the fact that most people don't speak some English, it's the written stuff that bothers her.

Edited March 8, 2019 by GinBoy2

CaptainJack · March 8, 2019

4 hours ago, madmen said:

On 3/6/2019 at 1:24 PM, CaptainJack said:

No need to rehash why. I left my short first attempt at becoming an expatriate in Thailand on January 8, 2019, after 9 months. On the way out, I stopped in the Philippines and visited a fellow retired police detective who moved there with his Philippines wife. It was not for me.

A week break exploring Sydney and the Blue Mountains, then 3 weeks on the south island of New Zealand, and back to the USA, rest, recover, rethink and Monday I fly first to Mexico for a few weeks or month to see how it feels compared to 100's of trips and vacations there, now as a possible retirement place to call home.

Then to Costa Rica, Columbia and Panama. I have researched the visa requirements, costs, hoops to jump through and I easily can meet them all.

I board my flight Monday, March 11th and fly to Merida, Mexico, my first stop.

I picked Mexico first because it is only a 7 hour flight with a connection in Houston. That, and I get a 6 month tourist visa on arrival. That is included in my airfare. I can fly direct to Costa Rica too.

As I explore the possibilities, I'll drop in and report on anything I think is useful.

Captain Jack.....

You sure? If I recall you did an abrupt expat u turn out of Thailand because you couldn't afford health insurance. But you easy qualify for it every where else. Care to elaborate?

Not everywhere. Some countries have national health plans that don't have a 59 or 64 maximum age limit to join.

My actual reasoning is much simpler. In Thailand, I found out for certain there was nothing I could buy except an expensive International plan. Part of the higher cost was I wanted the most coverage possible, being so far from the USA and my Medicare Advantage medical insurance.

Why was that important? When I looked at how much an extended hospital stay can really cost, and no possibility of surviving a 30 or 40 hour flight to get back to my home country, I was shopping at the higher coverage range.

It is my rational, but I'm betting if I can get some solid basic coverage and I can be stabilized, I can evacuate back to the USA. That was also something that drove the international Expatriate insurance quotes up too. The premium for evacuation was 2 or 3 times higher then from south of the border or even Europe.

Makes sense. The costs to get transported back to the USA from Thailand is obviously going to be higher.

I'm working on getting more information as I go. I'll let y'all know.

CaptainJack · March 8, 2019

33 minutes ago, CaptainJack said:

Not everywhere. Some countries have national health plans that don't have a 59 or 64 maximum age limit to join.

My actual reasoning is much simpler. In Thailand, I found out for certain there was nothing I could buy except an expensive International plan. Part of the higher cost was I wanted the most coverage possible, being so far from the USA and my Medicare Advantage medical insurance.

Why was that important? When I looked at how much an extended hospital stay can really cost, and no possibility of surviving a 30 or 40 hour flight to get back to my home country, I was shopping at the higher coverage range.

It is my rational, but I'm betting if I can get some solid basic coverage and I can be stabilized, I can evacuate back to the USA. That was also something that drove the international Expatriate insurance quotes up too. The premium for evacuation was 2 or 3 times higher then from south of the border or even Europe.

Makes sense. The costs to get transported back to the USA from Thailand is obviously going to be higher.

I'm working on getting more information as I go. I'll let y'all know.

PS. My two main expat friends in Bkk, one an American there for over 20 years, the other having made the move from New Zealand both had different approaches to the medical insurance issues. My American friend is married to a Japanese woman and covered by her insurance. Plus, they have no intention of dying in Thailand, and plan to retire to Japan where her family lives.

My Kiwi friend is hedging his life and medical needs on evacuating home to New Zealand if necessary. He has family that would even come to Thailand to bring him home. I have neither of those.

My Thai friends are pretty typical. They all just say, "why you worry, everyone die".

I won't say I made a mistake thinking I could retire in Thailand and make it all work at age 66, but I did not do the research required. I've been playing catch up for too long.

I will say, I have not liked being back in the USA, but that is preferable to a host of other alternatives that could have been way more costly for me.

Over the next few months of traveling Latin America, I'll arrive at a decision based on facts, including what is realistic for me. I will repatriate if I need to.

Last thought. I had been gone either traveling Asia or trying the living route in Thailand for 11 months. In only 11 months, I find the USA alien. I cannot imagine what someone would experience having to repatriate having been away for 10 or more years. It would have to be traumatic.

GinBoy2 · March 8, 2019

31 minutes ago, CaptainJack said:

PS. My two main expat friends in Bkk, one an American there for over 20 years, the other having made the move from New Zealand both had different approaches to the medical insurance issues.  My American friend is married to a Japanese woman and covered by her insurance.   Plus, they have no intention of dying in Thailand,  and plan to retire to Japan where her family lives.

My Kiwi friend is hedging his life and medical needs on evacuating home to New Zealand if necessary.   He has family that would even come to Thailand to bring him home.  I have neither of those.

My Thai friends are pretty typical.   They all just say, "why you worry, everyone die".

I won't say I made a mistake thinking I could retire in Thailand and make it all work at age 66, but I did not do the research required.  I've been playing catch up for too long.

I will say, I have not liked being back in the USA,  but that is preferable to a host of other alternatives that could have been way more costly for me.

Over the next few months of traveling Latin America,  I'll arrive at a decision based on facts, including what is realistic for me.  I will repatriate if I need to.

Last thought.  I had been gone either traveling Asia or trying the living route in Thailand for 11 months.  In only 11 months,  I find the USA alien.   I cannot imagine what someone would experience having to repatriate having been away for 10 or more years.  It would have to be traumatic.

It's all a very mixed bag of stuff.

Even for us Americans with our bizarre health care system, when you retire, it all stabilizes with medicare. The reverse is true in Thailand and becomes increasingly unaffordable, if you can even get an insurance company to write a policy for you.

Many of us just tire of Thailand, and repatriation is easy, and often in my case at least it's just easier to be around folks whose brains work on a similar frequency.

Now my wife is Thai, she often remarks when we are at restaurant, how the wait staff are actually happy, they smile, they laugh, they engage with you. That used to be the case in LOS 10, 15 years ago, but no more. Those days are long gone.

So as a vacation destination, fine. Live there full time, nah done with that

keemapoot · March 9, 2019

Not sure if it’s been mentioned in this thread but a very interesting site to find out the average minimum money needed to live as an expat (didital nomad) is nomadlist. Covers the whole world and is based on input from those that live a globe roaming lifestyle.

It also has a searchable map and you can put in your monthly budget to see choices. It also rates each city on a number of factors. Might be helpful when combined with retirement visa info in this thread.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

marcusarelus · March 9, 2019

40 minutes ago, GinBoy2 said:

It's all a very mixed bag of stuff.

Even for us Americans with our bizarre health care system, when you retire, it all stabilizes with medicare. The reverse is true in Thailand and becomes increasingly unaffordable, if you can even get an insurance company to write a policy for you.

Many of us just tire of Thailand, and repatriation is easy, and often in my case at least it's just easier to be around folks whose brains work on a similar frequency.

Now my wife is Thai, she often remarks when we are at restaurant, how the wait staff are actually happy, they smile, they laugh, they engage with you. That used to be the case in LOS 10, 15 years ago, but no more. Those days are long gone.

So as a vacation destination, fine. Live there full time, nah done with that

Not true. You forgot that you are a pretty negative guy and the vibes you send out are very anti Thai. I was out last month to two good Thai restaurants, large and busy and the wait staff at both smiled and engaged with myself and my wife and told us to eat more as it was all free. Italian and Japanese buffet nights. The Italian was 500 baht and the Japanese 700. So, if you go to expensive (Thai) restaurants you get good service.

I think it is reasonable to assume that people can read your moods and remember. Like I remember all the negative things you have posted about Thailand. Health care in the US is not simple after retirement and medicare if you don't have expensive long term health care insurance. So you are still pedaling a bag of untruths.

From another recent post, " The US will bleed you dry in a heartbeat. The big misconception is that medicare will solve their health concerns . If you research how much one still has to pay even though they are "covered" by medicare you will see that you still need to pay a LOT , or have secondary insurance along with medicare. don't believe me ask Sheryl."

Edited March 9, 2019 by marcusarelus

CaptainJack · March 9, 2019

10 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

Not true. You forgot that you are a pretty negative guy and the vibes you send out are very anti Thai. I was out last month to two good Thai restaurants, large and busy and the wait staff at both smiled and engaged with myself and my wife and told us to eat more as it was all free. Italian and Japanese buffet nights. The Italian was 500 baht and the Japanese 700. So, if you go to expensive (Thai) restaurants you get good service.

I think it is reasonable to assume that people can read your moods and remember. Like I remember all the negative things you have posted about Thailand. Health care in the US is not simple after retirement and medicare if you don't have expensive long term health care insurance. So you are still pedaling a bag of untruths.

From another recent post, " The US will bleed you dry in a heartbeat. The big misconception is that medicare will solve their health concerns . If you research how much one still has to pay even though they are "covered" by medicare you will see that you still need to pay a LOT , or have secondary insurance along with medicare. don't believe me ask Sheryl."

First, I'm heading to Mexico and I'm having dinner at a TexMex place. Lol.

Everyone is different as to moods, writing styles, how they express themselves. I try to stay upbeat. Anyway, the insurance issue is for me, a different experience then other people. I has two retina operations under Medicare that would have cost me 100k dollars. Between my Medicare and Supplemental insurance, which in total cost me 150 dollars a month, my out of pocket cost was 2,000 dollars. The surgery saved my vision. Every condition is different, the costs different and out of pocket cost are different.

There is a possibility I may need a repeat operation. I priced the same operating in Bkk with follow up at a western hospital in Bkk. It was 800k baht. I also priced a simple antiogram and double stent, for comparison to western prices. Absolutely a bargain in Bkk but still 1.5 million baht.

My out of pocket in the USA? About 2,000 dollars. Everyone has to run real numbers to compare costs, insurance premiums, etc. That is what I started doing.

It really does not matter whether Thailand, SE Asia or Latin America. At 66 plus years old, stuff breaks, needs repairs or replacement and not doing so is either a diminished quality of life or death.

Enough said on that.

More to the point. Making smart decisions for oneself. That is what I am trying to do. Why I decided I needed to leave Thailand, come back to my home side of the planet and work a new plan. As almost everyone knows me understands, I am really transparent. I have nothing to gain to be angry, pretend or be anything but authentic. Let's all be honest. I don't want to repatriate, but I will if necessary. This topic we are all actively engaged in is real, it is important and there may be many others to follow in the upcoming months.

I am selfish. I am here talking with all of you because I feel like I am out on a limb. I don't like feeling alone. Every single one of you that encourages me helps to hold me up.

I am daily battling depression, feeling like a failure and if you don't know it, everyone of you give me strength to press forward.

I think that is what we all need. Encouragement and support.

I will try my best to reciprocate....

brokenbone · March 9, 2019

to fellow american expats, IMHO, the reason you would

consider getting entangled in yet MORE visa hassle & uncertainty is because you havnt got sufficiently fed up with

the amount of visa hassle & uncertainty in thailand in the first instance.

i think there is a solid rift between europeans & americans in that regard, europeans only ever want a life in warm climate

free of visa hassle & uncertainty, like EU just with warmer weather.

USA got plenty of warm territories where you are a citizen from start to finish, why wouldnt you just go to to one of the many plots ?

CaptainJack · March 9, 2019

14 minutes ago, brokenbone said:

to fellow american expats, IMHO, the reason you would

consider getting entangled in yet MORE visa hassle & uncertainty is because you havnt got sufficiently fed up with

the amount of visa hassle & uncertainty in thailand in the first instance.

i think there is a solid rift between europeans & americans in that regard, europeans only ever want a life in warm climate

free of visa hassle & uncertainty, like EU just with warmer weather.

USA got plenty of warm territories where you are a citizen from start to finish, why wouldnt you just go to to one of the many plots ?

You hit the nail straight on the head. Good for you. Now, why? I can only answer for me. I was not feeling at all like I belonged in America. It does not feel like the American I grew up in. I have worked and traveled across most all of Asia and SE Asia. It felt more like I was home.

Maybe 5, 10 or 15 years ago, that would have worked. Times change. Countries change. Governments change.

That is why I stayed in Thailand after extended travel and work with the NGO I work with in Vietnam.

That is my answer. Now? How about Latin America? Can I make that work?

Let's see how it goes. Peace brother.

brokenbone · March 9, 2019

2 minutes ago, CaptainJack said:

You hit the nail straight on the head. Good for you. Now, why? I can only answer for me. I was not feeling at all like I belonged in America. It does not feel like the American I grew up in. I have worked and traveled across most all of Asia and SE Asia. It felt more like I was home.

Maybe 5, 10 or 15 years ago, that would have worked. Times change. Countries change. Governments change.

That is why I stayed in Thailand after extended travel and work with the NGO I work with in Vietnam.

That is my answer. Now? How about Latin America? Can I make that work?

Let's see how it goes. Peace brother.

ah, ok, but are they all the same ?

the colonies in caribbean, probably some place in latin america too belonging to US, diego garcia is rented from brits

but perhaps still a place you are a citizen of,

a bunch of pacific islands taken from japan,

altho they are horribly fat over there,

and many places that altho not belonging to US,

offers generous visas to US citizens,

like vietnam/philippines/alize and a range of other hosts

madmen · March 9, 2019

2 hours ago, GinBoy2 said:

It's all a very mixed bag of stuff.

Even for us Americans with our bizarre health care system, when you retire, it all stabilizes with medicare. The reverse is true in Thailand and becomes increasingly unaffordable, if you can even get an insurance company to write a policy for you.

Many of us just tire of Thailand, and repatriation is easy, and often in my case at least it's just easier to be around folks whose brains work on a similar frequency.

Now my wife is Thai, she often remarks when we are at restaurant, how the wait staff are actually happy, they smile, they laugh, they engage with you. That used to be the case in LOS 10, 15 years ago, but no more. Those days are long gone.

So as a vacation destination, fine. Live there full time, nah done with that

This is true at small thai mom n pop restaurants with the 16 year old daughter waitressing or slightly bigger restaurants with several younger girls waitressing who dont really wanna be there and get overwhelmed when its busy and your not gonna get hugs and kisses in 70 baht/meal restaurants.

Now go to an upmarket restaurant and you will get treated exactly the same as in the west

CaptainJack · March 9, 2019

21 minutes ago, brokenbone said:

ah, ok, but are they all the same ?

the colonies in caribbean, probably some place in latin america too belonging to US, diego garcia is rented from brits

but perhaps still a place you are a citizen of,

a bunch of pacific islands taken from japan,

altho they are horribly fat over there,

and many places that altho not belonging to US,

offers generous visas to US citizens,

like vietnam/philippines/alize and a range of other hosts

I don't know about alot of places. I do know a lot of countries in the Asian world are tightening up their visa requirements. For me, I would have jumping at PR, but they got wiped out my two hurricanes.

I will try and find out if there really are viable options before calling it quits.

marcusarelus · March 9, 2019

2 hours ago, brokenbone said:

to fellow american expats, IMHO, the reason you would

consider getting entangled in yet MORE visa hassle & uncertainty is because you havnt got sufficiently fed up with

the amount of visa hassle & uncertainty in thailand in the first instance.

i think there is a solid rift between europeans & americans in that regard, europeans only ever want a life in warm climate

free of visa hassle & uncertainty, like EU just with warmer weather.

USA got plenty of warm territories where you are a citizen from start to finish, why wouldnt you just go to to one of the many plots ?

An Older American point of view. I moved from South Florida to Thailand because of the freedom of actions I had in Thailand that was not available in the USA. It had nothing to do with the climate. I moved from Michigan to Vietnam in 1968 and didn't like the weather in Vietnam because of the monsoons. Many places in South America/Caribbean would freak me out because of hurricanes. Can't get off an island easily. I've been through 6 or 7 hurricanes so have practical experience to go by.

I don't see how an older American can move to SA except for countries close to America in case one needs medical help. How much is a heart emergency going to cost in the South American country of your choice? Can they do it? You only have a few minutes to get treatment or disability. What is the window of time for stroke or heart attack?

If I ever move back to the States my choice will be motivated by the quality of the VA hospital in the area. Florida VA sucks so not there. All things considered I'd like a warm climate but would prefer a beating heart. Life's a drag if your heart stops.

Americans with FMP (military) can get quality care in Thailand no problem or any place in SA. Pay first and then USA sends you a check. Or if one has an international insurance policy of some kind that actually works.

How long to get your Spanish up to speed? For me, I think a year or two would do it. I also have a Spanish translator available 24/7 (daughter) but that would be critical.

I can't think of any place in Mexico that would be better than San Antonio given the cost of living/health care trade off. San Antonio Is like being in Mexico without the drugs lords and food poisoning. I don't know what the oil boom currently in Texas is doing to the cost of living there.

Why go to Cuba when you can find as many Cubans in Miami? If you really need some communists around it's only 20 minutes by air.

Columbia or Panama why? Doesn't the trade off in health care vs cost of living equal out?

I must admit I feel much different approaching 80 than I did approaching 60. Around 60 I wanted adventure now I want a comfortable chair and my dog at my feet. For an older American I can't see any country in SA winning in a contest with America. The food? No. The cost of living? No. (much of the Southern States is still poverty belt country). How important are women to an 80 year old male? Not much really. At my age friendship is more important than gender.

I think if one is addicted to moving or talking about moving it's time to google, "Addiction Recovery and Geographical Cures: Escapism Isn’t the Solution."

Edited March 9, 2019 by marcusarelus

Jingthing · March 9, 2019

5 hours ago, brokenbone said:

to fellow american expats, IMHO, the reason you would

consider getting entangled in yet MORE visa hassle & uncertainty is because you havnt got sufficiently fed up with

the amount of visa hassle & uncertainty in thailand in the first instance.

i think there is a solid rift between europeans & americans in that regard, europeans only ever want a life in warm climate

free of visa hassle & uncertainty, like EU just with warmer weather.

USA got plenty of warm territories where you are a citizen from start to finish, why wouldnt you just go to to one of the many plots ?

Oh, geez.

ECONOMICS

Cost of housing.

Cost of transportation.

In the USA, you usually need a car and to live in a nice location without a car means additional housing costs.

Abroad, many places offer pleasant locations without need for a car.

Sure you could Uber everywhere, but in the U.S. that will cost a fortune as opposed to 1 to 5 bucks all across town in many locations abroad.

Swing that if your only income is a social security check.

Older people eventually lose their ability to drive and keep a license in the first place.

Cost of restaurants (grocery prices are fine).

Cost health care (Medicare is not free).

The typical older person spends 150,000 USD lifetime out of their own pocket that's even with Medicare.

Even if you paid full retail abroad without insurance in a lower cost nation you probably wouldn't spend that much.

Won't mention political reasons.

Of course personal situations vary a lot. If you've got a high income in retirement, multiple pensions, large savings (at least 500k USD and preferably a least a million USD), well located fully owned housing (but property taxes and maintenance will still be high), then of course the compelling economic reasons mentioned above would be largely moot.

But the vast majority of older Americans are not that well off, and having only a very inadequate social security check as the only income, with limited savings, is quite common.

Cheers.

Edited March 9, 2019 by Jingthing

brokenbone · March 9, 2019

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

Oh, geez.

ECONOMICS

Cost of housing.

Cost of transportation.

In the USA, you usually need a car and to live in a nice location without a car means additional housing costs.

Abroad, many places offer pleasant locations without need for a car.

Sure you could Uber everywhere, but in the U.S. that will cost a fortune as opposed to 1 to 5 bucks all across town in many locations abroad.

Swing that if your only income is a social security check.

Older people eventually lose their ability to drive and keep a license in the first place.

Cost of restaurants (grocery prices are fine).

Cost health care (Medicare is not free).

The typical older person spends 150,000 USD lifetime out of their own pocket that's even with Medicare.

Even if you paid full retail abroad without insurance in a lower cost nation you probably wouldn't spend that much.

Won't mention political reasons.

Of course personal situations vary a lot. If you've got a high income in retirement, multiple pensions, large savings (at least 500k USD and preferably a least a million USD), well located fully owned housing (but property taxes and maintenance will still be high), then of course the compelling economic reasons mentioned above would be largely moot.

But the vast majority of older Americans are not that well off, and having only a very inadequate social security check as the only income, with limited savings, is quite common.

Cheers.

i dont think that is so straight forward,

i have been paying above 40k baht per year, for decades,

plus another 4k baht following the month i went on a visa run on massage to recover from the visa run,

theres not a lot of countries in the world that cost so much more to live in then thailand then the cost of living in thailand does when visa cost is accounted for,

and, any other visa obsessed country would

probably be the same shit all over again,

plus all the scams that can be expected

when encounter yet another 3rd world

Edited March 9, 2019 by brokenbone

Jingthing · March 9, 2019

42 minutes ago, brokenbone said:

i dont think that is so straight forward,

i have been paying above 40k baht per year, for decades,

plus another 4k baht following the month i went on a visa run on massage to recover from the visa run,

theres not a lot of countries in the world that cost so much more to live in then thailand then the cost of living in thailand does when visa cost is accounted for,

and, any other visa obsessed country would

probably be the same shit all over again,

plus all the scams that can be expected

when encounter yet another 3rd world

No. I agree it is not straightforward.

I think that most older Americans interested in or doing retirement abroad are largely motivated by the chance of getting a significantly better quality of life than they know what they can have in the U.S. (project your own country if relevant).

Many that retire abroad can't retire at all if they stayed at home (assuming they are lucky enough to still be able to work and employers wanting them).

The ones that DO retire abroad are more likely to be RISK TAKERS.

Risks can backfire.

From my own POV, I think it could manage a miserable quality of life retirement in the USA with great difficulty but there would be the undeniable comforts of having Medicare, fluency in the dominant language, being closer to friends/family, and no visa issues.

But the chance of achieving the POTENTIALLY much better quality of life abroad would not be there at all.

So as I am a risk taker, I'm willing to continue to take the risks.

There is another factor for long term expats in certain countries.

We get used to certain FREEDOMS that are impossible in the USA.

Such as going into any pharmacy and buying prescription meds (usually very low priced compared to the U.S. retail) without the hassle of long waits to see a doctor (even if "free") or traveling to the doctor at all.

There are a number of things that are more "free" like that outside the USA. People that don't realize that wouldn't be interested in expatriation, so enjoy that feeling.

I will correct one negative thing I said about living in the U.S. before. Real estate taxes (whether you own your housing outright or still have a mortgage). Some states excuse or reduce the taxes for older Americans.

Edited March 9, 2019 by Jingthing

NCC1701A · March 9, 2019

Venezuela’s worst power and communications outage on Friday deepened a sense of isolation and decay, endangering hospital patients, forcing schools and businesses to close and cutting people off from their families, friends and the outside world.

While electricity returned to some parts of Caracas nearly 24 hours after lights, phones and the internet stopped working, several other populous cities remained in the dark as evening approached.

https://apnews.com/6ba2f69b77e2457da64593a7b8eced16

Jingthing · March 9, 2019

2 minutes ago, NCC1701A said:

Venezuela’s worst power and communications outage on Friday deepened a sense of isolation and decay, endangering hospital patients, forcing schools and businesses to close and cutting people off from their families, friends and the outside world.

While electricity returned to some parts of Caracas nearly 24 hours after lights, phones and the internet stopped working, several other populous cities remained in the dark as evening approached.

https://apnews.com/6ba2f69b77e2457da64593a7b8eced16

Nobody is talking about moving to Venezuela in the context of this thread.

Edited March 9, 2019 by Jingthing

NCC1701A · March 9, 2019

1 minute ago, Jingthing said:

Nobody is talking about moving to Venezuela in the context of this thread.

marcusarelus · March 9, 2019

6 hours ago, NCC1701A said:

Venezuela’s worst power and communications outage on Friday deepened a sense of isolation and decay, endangering hospital patients, forcing schools and businesses to close and cutting people off from their families, friends and the outside world.

While electricity returned to some parts of Caracas nearly 24 hours after lights, phones and the internet stopped working, several other populous cities remained in the dark as evening approached.

https://apnews.com/6ba2f69b77e2457da64593a7b8eced16

A worse problem is hyperinflation which is, relatively speaking, common in South America. So I hear that a group of expats are getting together at the Tahitian Queen daily and pooling their resources, so far, (20 pounds) and are going to buy Venezuela (inflation rate 1,000,000%). Myself, I am trying to buy Argentina.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/garthfriesen/2018/08/07/the-path-to-hyperinflation-what-happened-to-venezuela/#3c44ef6815e4

Edited March 9, 2019 by marcusarelus

Jingthing · March 9, 2019

Hyperinflation? The current situation in Venezuela is perhaps the worst anywhere in world history. It's not only a Latin American problem.

https://www.businessinsider.com/worst-hyperinflation-episodes-in-history-2013-9#heres-the-full-table-of-all-56-hyperinflations-on-record-10

marcusarelus · March 9, 2019

3 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Hyperinflation? The current situation in Venezuela is perhaps the worst anywhere in world history.

So now might be a good time to buy a ranch. Warren Buffet quotes make a great case on why now is the right time to bet on Venezuela real estate! https://blog.realtyhive.com/buy-land-venezuela-now/#.XIPgMLhS_cA

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