Expats in Thailand considering moving to Latin America prompted by Thai visa changes

[Jingthing]

Just to spice it up a bit, another alternative in Ecuador, the small mountain city of Loja. It's a good one to directly compare to Cuenca. Loja is lower cost of living, undiscovered, very few expats. 

 

Warning! International Living Puff Piece but I still think there is probably good information in it.

 

https://internationalliving.com/countries/ecuador/loja-ecuador/

 

Quote

Loja, Ecuador: A City That Will Surprise You

 

 

 

 

To add as a reminder, it's my impression based on research that the retirement visa process for Ecuador is significantly more onerous than for Colombia. 

Edited July 12, 2019 by Jingthing

[swissie]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

Just to spice it up a bit, another alternative in Ecuador, the small mountain city of Loja. It's a good one to directly compare to Cuenca. Loja is lower cost of living, undiscovered, very few expats. 

 

Warning! International Living Puff Piece but I still think there is probably good information in it.

 

https://internationalliving.com/countries/ecuador/loja-ecuador/

 

 

 

 

 

To add as a reminder, it's my impression based on research that the retirement visa process for Ecuador is significantly more onerous than for Colombia. 

After having done some extensive research for a long time and after having sold your "immovable-assets" in Thailand, (hypothetically), where would you relocate?

-What would be your "Favorite-Spot" to relocate to at this time after having considered all the options available.
Just curious.

[Jingthing]

2 hours ago, swissie said:

After having done some extensive research for a long time and after having sold your "immovable-assets" in Thailand, (hypothetically), where would you relocate?

-What would be your "Favorite-Spot" to relocate to at this time after having considered all the options available.
Just curious.

Well, I can sort of answer that but my answer will be basically meaningless for other people. 

I've listed my priorities before but my overruling priorities seem to be the easiest possible visa (which when I moved to Thailand was definitely Thailand) combined with the best quality of life bang for the buck possible. Not the absolutely cheapest place to just survive but a place where I could afford modern comforts very affordably. After that come my other priorities, must haves, nice to haves, and can maybe do withouts. Ironic that having lived in Thailand complicates the visa process for a number of countries, Ecuador being a good example.

 

I could answer a fantasy expat destination if I didn't have those real priorities (visa issues and rather serious budget restrictions) but I won't bother. 

 

Also having not having visited all the places on my short list gives room for much doubt.

 

So given all that I've really already posted my answer here multiple times. 

 

Armenia Colombia.

 

Realizing I could spend an hour there and want to leave immediately.

 

Realizing it's not a place I would even feel very excited about visiting as a tourist, but my purposes are not tourism. 

 

Sorry my answer can't be more satisfying. 

 

Other places on my short list in Queretaro Mexico and Medellin Colombia. Of those three Queretaro would probably be the most exciting for me to visit as a tourist (the food!). Both are more expensive than Armenia and Mexico doesn't have a buy in to nationalized health care that would accept me.

 

Puebla/Cholula Mexico is further down from the list. The high altitude probably shakes it from the short list.

Edited July 12, 2019 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

A lot covered here.

Gentrification.

The impact of too many gringos.

Malls. Rising in Latin America and Asia. Declining dramatically in the USA.

Frankly, this Sam guy totally annoys me for various reasons but look at that fancy mall!

 

 

[Jingthing]

OK, I gleaned this bit of negative information about the customs with renting in Colombia from a questionable source, but I'll mention it anyway. What it said was that Colombian landlords like shorter leases, like a year or less, and predictably raise the rents 10 percent per year. That could really add up over not that many years. So if that's true, assuming you're renting unfurnished to get local prices, it would mean being prepared to move fairly often to find a new affordable place, or perhaps influence a decision to buy instead of renting. 

[Destiny1990]

How about Cuba?

[Jingthing]

How about Cuba?

As an American not on my radar as we are still restricted but if people wants to post about residency options there by all means do so.

I did visit maybe a similar island the Dominican Republic and it wasn't my cup of tea.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Jingthing]

The Americans and other gringo flotsam and jetsam in Cuenca Ecuador.

Has there ever been so much sustained international attention put on basically a few thousand people?

China pipes in.

I do like that the Cuenca government cares enough to spend resources to try to make the gringos fit in better.

I don't know any other place that does that.

 

 

Edited July 14, 2019 by Jingthing

[seasia]

12 hours ago, Destiny1990 said:

How about Cuba?

Hi

 

I have never been, friend of mine has been at least a couple of times and must like it as he has booked another visit.

From what little I recall of asking him about it, prices seemed OK.

 

He also has been to Dominican Republic and overall liked that also, that he is also returning to.

 

Plus a visit to Colombia.

 

I recall the last time speaking to him in naklua ( pattaya ) he made the comment that he was getting a bit tired of it there and said he was looking in to a return to South America. ( For a break, not to live )

Which he has booked.

He is street smart and also a fluent Spanish speaker.

 

I am looking forward to catching up with him, likely in October when we both have returns to naklua.

[Destiny1990]

25 minutes ago, seasia said:

Hi

 

I have never been, friend of mine has been at least a couple of times and must like it as he has booked another visit.

From what little I recall of asking him about it, prices seemed OK.

 

He also has been to Dominican Republic and overall liked that also, that he is also returning to.

 

Plus a visit to Colombia.

 

I recall the last time speaking to him in naklua ( pattaya ) he made the comment that he was getting a bit tired of it there and said he was looking in to a return to South America. ( For a break, not to live )

Which he has booked.

He is street smart and also a fluent Spanish speaker.

 

I am looking forward to catching up with him, likely in October when we both have returns to naklua.

Yes Cuba sounds like an interesting destination to explore.

[Jingthing]

Colombia wins top country award in this year's South America World Travel Awards. See all the winners here --

 

 

https://cuencahighlife.com/ecuador-takes-top-honors-at-world-travel-awards-ceremony-cuenca-wins-again/

 

[Jingthing]

There was a member here that lives in Latin America that had posted here (and I hope he comes back) that had repeatedly mocked the idea that you can learn anything meaningful about living in Latin America with internet sources and youtube videos.

 

I respect his POV as his POV. He's there. He knows much more at least about the places that he's spent time down there. I've done extended stays in Argentina and Mexico but not recently and not in places that are on my consideration list to move to now.

 

But I disagreed with him before and will continue to disagree with him about the value of internet research and youtube videos. I think there is value there. Obviously not in all or most of it, but it is there.

 

Here is what I think is a good example of that.

 

The Medellin area neighborhood of ENVIGADO.

 

If I moved to Medellin I already know that Envigado (technically a separate city) would be high on my list for areas to consider. Based on internet research Laureles would be as well. Based on internet research Poblado would definitely be out.

 

I haven't even been to the country of Colombia yet I feel confident that I know enough already to reject the idea of living in Poblado. 

 

About Envigado. It has pros and cons. It has it's own community. Shopping. restaurants, malls, etc. A big con is that it is NOT connected to the subway system. So want to go another neighborhood? Well I suppose you can walk to Poblado (hills) or more likely bus or taxi. As you can see in the video parts have hills. It has a famous Spanish language school and very popular expat / locals social exchange parties. I pretty much knew all that before watching this video. 

 

But watching the video we can get an impression of the FEEL of the place. No, not the smells, not the real life feel, but definitely something. If you wanted you could probably find 100 videos covering different areas of just Envigado. Not saying anyone should do that of course. That would be obsessive. 

 

 

Edited July 16, 2019 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

I don't know if there are any black people and or African Americans that have been reading this thread but here goes.

 

Speaking of videos you may have noticed (I know I have) that a large percentage of the video bloggers about Medellin are black people and or African Americans.

 

Why is that? Is Medellin and Colombia especially attractive to black people and or African Americans?

 

I can't speak as one, but I'm hearing the answer to that is YES.

 

So why?

 

Well here are some generalities that are my impression --

 

-- They like it for the same reasons as other kinds of expats (duh)

 

-- Passing / blending in very well. Assumed to be Colombian until they open their mouths (unless their dress gives them away). Better than white people. 

 

-- Perception that they are feeling less racism than in the USA including both from the regular people (who remember see them as locals until they speak) and even maybe surprisingly POLICE. 

 

-- No feeling of discrimination in things like renting apartments

 

Now for some more controversial points 

 

-- Colombian black people are reported to feel discriminated against for being black more than Americans. 

 

-- Feeling safer. Less likely to be targets of criminals. Why? Well the blending in aspect as above but some have said more of a feeling of don't mess with a black guy and/or maybe they would have less to rob. White foreigners seen as a fatter target.

 

If the above makes some people angry, it's not my intention. These aren't my reports from Colombia. I am passing along things other people have said online.

 

It could be all be a bunch of baloney, but there it is. 

Edited July 16, 2019 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

It's time for another Colombian food video.

Meet this charming family visiting Armenia Colombia area as far as I can tell and sampling some of the more typical local foods.

 

 

[Jingthing]

My personal focus being older is retirement abroad. But of course younger people are interested in moving abroad as well, in this context, Americans to Latin America.

 

Note the most important reason for this in the article. Affordable living. Surprised? I'm not. 

 

Quote

Gen Xers are hot on Baby Boomers’ heels in considering moving abroad; affordable living, increased opportunities are biggest draws

 

https://cuencahighlife.com/north-american-gen-xers-are-hot-on-the-heels-of-baby-boomers-in-looking-to-relocate-abroad/

[SEAsia Traveler]

delete

Edited July 22, 2019 by SEAsia Traveler

[SEAsia Traveler]

delete

Edited July 22, 2019 by SEAsia Traveler

[Jingthing]

Health insurance and care abroad with some American specific stuff with some examples in Mexico.

As said before older people and/or people with preexisting conditions are going to have issues buying private insurance in Mexico, if at all.

But paying retail might be affordable for some given the lower costs. 

Americans may want to pay for their extra "parts" to make either repatriation or getting care on visits more viable.

Compare Mexico to the Latin American countries where older people CAN at least buy into national health care systems.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/18/business/medicare-retire-abroad.html?em_pos=small&ref=headline&nl_art=1&te=1&nl=your-money&emc=edit_my_20190722?campaign_id=12&instance_id=11083&segment_id=15445&user_id=ff43ecadba81b8e8607bd24172527ca5&regi_id=13675460emc=edit_my_20190722

[Jingthing]

I'm assuming most of the audience for this topic can't afford to move to San Francisco (or London, Hong Kong, or Mexico City for that matter).

 

But how about a kind of San Francisco in Colombia?

 

Manizales one of the three coffee region cities (besides Pereira and Armenia) is dramatically hilly with cooler FOGGY weather due to a higher elevation. It's not cool cold like Bogota but cool relative to the coffee region.

 

As I've telegraphed here before, I think the best potential in Colombia (and elsewhere) isn't so much the places most everyone else wants to move to (such as Medellin in Mexico and Puerto Vallarta and San Miguel in Mexico). Sure such places have a lot to offer but they also get corrupted by too many foreigners. As in much higher costs.

 

So what kind of expat might Manizales be good for?

 

Maybe younger because of the VERY STEEP hills and the concentration of college students there.

 

People liking cool weather and fog.

 

People ready for a reportedly more "snobby" culturally oriented city where it would arguably harder to find "your people" than some other places.

This video shows the older sections mostly but there are also modern high rise sections as well.

 

 

[ThaiBunny]

1 minute ago, Jingthing said:

So what kind of expat might Manizales be good for?

The sort who likes San Francisco but hates The Castro?

[Jingthing]

7 minutes ago, ThaiBunny said:

The sort who likes San Francisco but hates The Castro?

Obviously the top cities for gay night life in Colombia are Medellin, Bogota, and Cartagena so if that's a high priority you wouldn't move to a more provincial city. But that doesn't mean there isn't a gay scene in the smaller cities. Especially smaller cities with lots of college students. I think the only "gay neighborhood" per se might be in Bogota though. I was surprised to discover that even in rather tiny Armenia they have gay pride parades. 

Edited July 24, 2019 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

What about Cali?

Well, I know it's not for me as a place to live, relatively higher crime rate and their seeming obsession with salsa dancing doesn't interest me.

Warmer weather than the coffee triangle.

But I hadn't realized their FOOD is so interesting!

Sounds like worth a visit just for that.

 

http://www.bbc.com/travel/story/20190723-colombias-buzzing-comeback-city

 

Quote

Bogota, Cartagena and Medellin top most travellers' lists, but only one in 20 visits the vibrant, buzzing city of Cali in the country's south.

 

[snowballthecat]

Hello Jingthing, absolutely amazing videos you have been posting, and me missing....

Catching up quickly, I do agree that you can get a 'sense' of a place by watching youtube videos....

It is close to travel around, it is the 'swivel chair travelling' of my dad, and it works. 

I would never ever move to Colombia, I had met many Colombians before, enough to say, but I understand the economy is doing well and it is very interesting place to visit. 

Cali and Cartagena probably suit me better....altought I like the local feel in secondary towns as well.

Cuenca (Ecuador) is a very attractive place to move, overall,and your choice of Queretaro couldn't be better. I have not visited it, just heard from friends. 

are you considering Peru or areas of Brazil as well? Just curious....

I am still enjoying Thailand (3rd year here) and tend to enjoy more European vibes, like Greek islands, Canary, Sardinia, etc. Considering Portugal and Andorra as well (thanks@Simon43).

Very informative thread, please keep going!

[Jingthing]

3 hours ago, snowballthecat said:

Hello Jingthing, absolutely amazing videos you have been posting, and me missing....

Catching up quickly, I do agree that you can get a 'sense' of a place by watching youtube videos....

It is close to travel around, it is the 'swivel chair travelling' of my dad, and it works. 

I would never ever move to Colombia, I had met many Colombians before, enough to say, but I understand the economy is doing well and it is very interesting place to visit. 

Cali and Cartagena probably suit me better....altought I like the local feel in secondary towns as well.

Cuenca (Ecuador) is a very attractive place to move, overall,and your choice of Queretaro couldn't be better. I have not visited it, just heard from friends. 

are you considering Peru or areas of Brazil as well? Just curious....

I am still enjoying Thailand (3rd year here) and tend to enjoy more European vibes, like Greek islands, Canary, Sardinia, etc. Considering Portugal and Andorra as well (thanks@Simon43).

Very informative thread, please keep going!

Thank you.

Glad to hear that you're finding the thread of interest.

Why do you say you would never live in Colombia?

The usual answer is perception of too much crime and vio

lence, etc. but just checking.

As far as my short list I'm pretty much down to Mexico and Colombia. 

I've got my own specific list of criteria and a lot of it is about lower costs and relatively easy visas especially with the complication of the history of living in Thailand.

I have determined that both Peru and Ecuador are fails in the easy visa department.

I've been to Peru but wouldn't really want to live in Lima though a great place to visit if just for the food alone.

I think the second city of Arequipa sounds very interesting but it's very high altitude, desert setting, and isolated.

Yes I agree if Ecuador, Cuenca would be the place but some other places like Loja sounds interesting.

I've been to Rio with some side trips and am just not feeling for Brazil and also I don't think I could qualify for their visa.

 

[Jingthing]

Got this link from another thread.

The Best Places for Expats 2018, and also the worst.

Pleasing to me that Mexico, Ecuador, and Colombia are all in the top 10 in the world.

Interesting to me that Peru and Brazil are listed among the worst. I have rejected Brazil and mostly rejected Peru, but still interesting.

 

Going into the top 20, we find Panama and Thailand. 

 

https://www.atlasandboots.com/remote-jobs/best-countries-for-expats/?fbclid=IwAR0dBYweQtWLWeZSMtrwHzFZDwLsCId0ytpwpggakJ73rwM5f9EDTWy9XdE

 

[snowballthecat]

Colombia is indeed a very violent place, whatever the estadistics may say. I am a bit "biased" as I have worked with Colombians before.

Recently a very good friend of mine returned to China to live with his young family, after spending 5-6 years working in Bogota. Reasons: violent environment. 

 

Mexico, Brazil, Colombia, Peru are all violent places. No idea what the stats say, but is a perceived feeling. Of course not all cities, not all towns not all areas. 

 

If low cost of life and easy visa are your criteria, please stick to it. 

 

For me, the criteria would be the locals. I want to enrich my life with nice locals around. Merry, simple, uncomplicated people. Good medical facilities are also on my list. 

 

Have you tried the less touristy places of Mexico,  western coast, places like Jalisco and alike? 

 

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, snowballthecat said:

Colombia is indeed a very violent place, whatever the estadistics may say. I am a bit "biased" as I have worked with Colombians before.

Recently a very good friend of mine returned to China to live with his young family, after spending 5-6 years working in Bogota. Reasons: violent environment. 

 

Mexico, Brazil, Colombia, Peru are all violent places. No idea what the stats say, but is a perceived feeling. Of course not all cities, not all towns not all areas. 

 

If low cost of life and easy visa are your criteria, please stick to it. 

 

For me, the criteria would be the locals. I want to enrich my life with nice locals around. Merry, simple, uncomplicated people. Good medical facilities are also on my list. 

 

Have you tried the less touristy places of Mexico,  western coast, places like Jalisco and alike? 

 

Thanks for all that.

I actually think the reputation of Colombia being unacceptably violent is potentially a plus for expats that choose their specific location carefully.

Why? The place doesn't get overrun with expats overly corrupting the locals (as has happened in Thailand's expat magnets) and not sure it's related but their currency is super weak. 

Of course Bogota is a massive city that will attract mostly more work/business oriented expats.

I continue to see the Colombian coffee triangle as potentially a good balance between what is attractive about Colombia with a more manageable level of crime. 

As far as friendly people, the reputation anyway is outside the biggest cities, Colombians are super friendly, perhaps uncomfortably so for people from more individualist cultures (Americans and Europeans). I get the concern though and it's impossible to know the reality before spending time there which I haven't. Also as I've said I already know their food culture doesn't thrill me (compared to Mexico which does) but I imagine that I could find ways to deal with that. There are always pros and cons. My more limited experience than you with Colombian people gels with the SUPER FRIENDLY reputation, and in my experience, not trashing their country of origin or afraid to go back for visits.

 

Also consider my perspective as an American is if I leave Thailand the choices are either another country or a pretty crappy location in the USA and a financial level suggesting risk of homelessness (so safe!). While I was more seriously looking at choices in the USA, I was even looking at St. Louis as an option (lower costs) which of course has a crime rate that makes most cities in Colombia look good. One way I've heard it described is that there has been a dramatic reduction in violence and crime in Colombia since the drug cartel days and the peaks of the civil war days (which may not be totally over). So from Colombian's POV they think it's pretty good now in COMPARISON to what they've known. If someone is coming from Switzerland they are going to have a different basis level for that comparison. Also from Thailand where most people agree unless you're looking for trouble here, you feel will feel and will be pretty safe crime-wise (with traffic safety being a separate matter).

 

On medical, in Colombia yeah you want to be in the biggest cities for the best options, with the coffee region cities being at a lower level. Meaning you will probably be OK if you don't develop something complicated and rare which I'm guessing is over 90 percent of what doctors deal with. 

 

But a plus being that Colombia (like Ecuador) offers a low cost buy in to their nationalized health care system which nobody is pretending is at Canadian or French quality levels, but it's still much better than nothing if you have issues with old age and/or preexisting conditions.

 

I don't mean to be hard selling Colombia. That's not possible for someone that hasn't even been there and even for places that I have been and liked, there is always the matter of tailoring your choices to your personal priorities and limitations (usually financial / visa related). 

 

As far as Mexico well I have been to PV numerous times including a long stay there. Also Ixtapa-Zihuatanejo, Mazatlán and side trips to smaller towns on the west coast. Yes, that area is wonderful in ways, I obviously love PV, but PV has become overly expensive and you've got the issues of very hot and humid summers, and storms where you need to evacuate like in Florida.

 

Inland Jalisco I have been to the fantastic city of Guadalajara and the gringo ghetto Lake Chapala. My perception based on visiting there and research is that Guadalajara is not as "safe" as Queretaro, has less of a vibrant central district, and is more private vehicle oriented. But it's definitely a great place. I didn't like Lake Chapala though for people looking for the comfort of tons of gringos, that's the place.

 

To say Mexico is a violent country is not particularly meaningful if you're looking at a major center of the Mexican middle class -- Queretaro specifically, where the crime levels would likely be better than most U.S. big cities. 

 

So of course it's not only country specific, but much more specific location within the country specific. 

Edited August 1, 2019 by Jingthing

[marcusarelus]

25 countries that hate America  Yes Mexico is on the list.  Btw what is the bribe if you overstay your visa? 

https://travel.alot.com/themes/25-countries-that-hate-americans--13893/20?multipage=1&mpcStarted=1

 

America a 65% unfavorability rating

Edited August 1, 2019 by marcusarelus

[fforest1]

One major thing that must be taken into consideration in Mexico is many parts are not longer cheap......Example.....About 1993 me and my old girlfriend were in Tulum Mexico,we rented a cabana (rustic but nice) right on the beach for a whopping 4 dollars a night....10 nights rental was 40 dollars......I know you will say that was a long time ago....And yes its true......But Cabanas on Tulum beach now go for like 120-150-170 dollars a night.....

EVERYWHERE use to be cheap in Mexico....

So now I think you have to be careful where you go and stay there now because many places in Mexico now have the $$$$ disease......

[fforest1]

Also if your a American and if you go to Mexico you get a 6 month visa....At the end of 6 months you only need to leave Mexico and come back in for another 6 month visa....Americans have been living in Mexico for years and years doing this.....

I could not find any major crackdown on this.....But you never know in the future......

Considering many citys in America are sanctuary citys for illegal Mexicans I am not sure how they could possibly justify a crackdown of Americans living in Mexico on Tourist visas....