How to deal with this plumbing bodge

[JAS21]

Noticed a downstairs ceiling was wet just below when the toilet in our bathroom is located … poked it with a screwdriver and water ran out. So cut a section of the ceiling out and on flushing the toilet I could see a small amount of water dripping down the outside of the blue 4” pipe.

 

We had this problem shortly after we moved in around 2007. The site ‘jack of all trades and master of <deleted> all’ hooked it out and said something was missing and he fixed it … I foolishly didn’t look to see what he did!

 

So yesterday I started to remove the toilet … having removed one downstairs last year I knew the easy way was to take all the tiles up and then attack the base with an angle grinder …BUT now I didn’t want to damage the irreplaceable floor tiles or break the toilet … a similar one in HomePro was 5Kthb+ and that is a few games of golf! Plus the white looked a slightly different colour.

 

Very fortunately the grout between the toilet and tiles was thicker than my thinnest wood chisel … ‘sacrilege’ said Mr sometimewoodworker when he read this. So I chiseled away and at the rear used my small angle grinder ‘thai style’ guard removed. If I nicked the tiles there it wouldn’t show, I protected them with a piece of hard plastic anyway. Having removed all the grout I gently inserted three large cold chisels down one side and tapped them in turn … luckily the toilet came loose.

 

Problem was obvious … the blue 4” pipe had been damaged during erection. Someone had ‘repaired’ the missing bit with grout and used a pipe flange … a broken one at that and with the broken bit towards the repair!! … to try and guide the water away from the repair,. See pics …..

 

So now how to fix … I only see two ways as trying to change a pipe cemented into a floor is a huge job, especially as there is a 90deg bend just below.

 

1 … get a piece of thin wall 4” pipe, slot it down its length and sleeve the original pipe and use some of that sealant which comes in a sausage that looks and feels like a ladies toy.

2 … try and attach some 3’’ pipe to the bottom of the toilet, but how?

 

Think 1 is the best option … anyone got a better idea

Edited March 8, 2019 by JAS21

[wayned]

Another option is to take a short length of standard 4" PVC, maybe 20-30 cm and cut it in half vertically so that you have 2 pieces 20-30 cm long.  Then cut of a small amount of the vertical cut and glue the two halfs back together making a pope slightly small than 4".  Then fit and glue that inside the existing pipe.  I would also buy a toilet fitting kit with a plate that screws to the floor and has a proper wax seal.

[sometimewoodworker]

8 hours ago, JAS21 said:

Very fortunately the grout between the toilet and tiles was thicker than my thinnest wood chisel … ‘sacrilege’ said Mr sometimewoodworker when he read this

Not at all, it's a tool, and if it's the best you've got to do the job then use it. You can always restore it later or buy another.

 

But most importantly, itls not my tool and not my job to fix any damage to it. I would probably have something else that would do the job.

[Crossy]

8 hours ago, JAS21 said:

1 … get a piece of thin wall 4” pipe, slot it down its length and sleeve the original pipe and use some of that sealant which comes in a sausage that looks and feels like a ladies toy.

 

I think this is on the right track. 

 

Sleeving inside the existing pipe to the level where you can use a new flange.

[JAS21]

11 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Not at all, it's a tool, and if it's the best you've got to do the job then use it. You can always restore it later or buy another.

 

But most importantly, itls not my tool and not my job to fix any damage to it. I would probably have something else that would do the job.

I bought a fair selection of tools with me when I left the UK ... I did try using my electric drill with a small bit... if I still had the flexible thingee that attaches to a drill and a small router that might have been a better way.

 

 

[JAS21]

19 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

I think this is on the right track. 

 

Sleeving inside the existing pipe to the level where you can use a new flange.

Yes ... so do I. Even if my sawing is not exactly accurate I think using enough solvent glue would 'weld' the surfaces.

 

I don't think a flange is needed ... just that 'gooey' ring thing.

[JAS21]

1 hour ago, wayned said:

Another option is to take a short length of standard 4" PVC, maybe 20-30 cm and cut it in half vertically so that you have 2 pieces 20-30 cm long.  Then cut of a small amount of the vertical cut and glue the two halfs back together making a pope slightly small than 4".  Then fit and glue that inside the existing pipe.  I would also buy a toilet fitting kit with a plate that screws to the floor and has a proper wax seal.

Better idea than mine I think...and I'll cut the bottom of the pipe at 45deg so that I can put it all the way down

 

What is a toilet fitting kit that has a plate to screw to the floor...something new to me ... google failed me ... please point me in the right direction ..

Edited March 9, 2019 by JAS21

[grollies]

2 hours ago, wayned said:

Another option is to take a short length of standard 4" PVC, maybe 20-30 cm and cut it in half vertically so that you have 2 pieces 20-30 cm long.  Then cut of a small amount of the vertical cut and glue the two halfs back together making a pope slightly small than 4".  Then fit and glue that inside the existing pipe.  I would also buy a toilet fitting kit with a plate that screws to the floor and has a proper wax seal.

Spot on for sleeving but you only have to make one vertical cut and squeeze the pipe together as you slide it down the existing pipe. Then use epoxy to seal up the cut.

[wayned]

1 hour ago, JAS21 said:

Better idea than mine I think...and I'll cut the bottom of the pipe at 45deg so that I can put it all the way down

 

What is a toilet fitting kit that has a plate to screw to the floor...something new to me ... google failed me ... please point me in the right direction ..

Something similar to this.  The flange is screwed to the floor.  All of the western toilets that I have seen have two attaching holes, one on each side.  The brass bolts are fitted to the adjustable slots.  The wax seal is put on the flange and the toilet is set on the seal with the bolts protruding thru the attach holes.  The brass nuts and washers are then fitted and tighten down which squeezes the wax seal and completely seals the opening.  you don't have to since the toilet will not leak, but you would normally complete the installation by sealing around the outside of the base of the toilet with normal acrylic sealing.  I've installed 5 Cotto toilets since coming here in 1998 and all of the toilets came with these kits. bought at Home Pro.

 

 Thais will look at the kit and throw it as their normal procedure is rubber seals and cement like they have installed Thai toilets all of their life.

 

[JAS21]

31 minutes ago, wayned said:

Something similar to this.  The flange is screwed to the floor.  All of the western toilets that I have seen have two attaching holes, one on each side.  The brass bolts are fitted to the adjustable slots.  The wax seal is put on the flange and the toilet is set on the seal with the bolts protruding thru the attach holes.  The brass nuts and washers are then fitted and tighten down which squeezes the wax seal and completely seals the opening.  you don't have to since the toilet will not leak, but you would normally complete the installation by sealing around the outside of the base of the toilet with normal acrylic sealing.  I've installed 5 Cotto toilets since coming here in 1998 and all of the toilets came with these kits. bought at Home Pro.

 

 Thais will look at the kit and throw it as their normal procedure is rubber seals and cement like they have installed Thai toilets all of their life.

 

Thanks ... that is the biz!  Much easier than setting on grout or white cement. It is a Cotto ...

 

But the stub on that flange is sized to fit into a standard 4" pipe, I assume and mine won't be if I sleeve it. But I will get one and looksee ...tks

[thaiguzzi]

Is that poo i can see inside the blue pvc pipe?

[notagain]

Fiberglass cloth and some epoxy would be the best and easiest fix, you can mold and shape to cover and seal every surface.

[JAS21]

1 hour ago, thaiguzzi said:

Is that poo i can see inside the blue pvc pipe?

Could be ... there is a bit of a smell... anyway it will only be mine ...MrsJ won't use a toilet that I have emptied into.....????

Edited March 9, 2019 by JAS21

[wayned]

2 hours ago, JAS21 said:

Thanks ... that is the biz!  Much easier than setting on grout or white cement. It is a Cotto ...

 

But the stub on that flange is sized to fit into a standard 4" pipe, I assume and mine won't be if I sleeve it. But I will get one and looksee ...tks

Use Groll;ie's method and make the cut only on one side and take out an angled piece and fore into the existing pipe  then cut off the top of the insert even with the floor. above the cut.  That way the opening will still be 4".  Also, I think that the toilet flange on the toilet is tapered and will fit fine with the flange screwed to the floor and the wax seal.

[JAS21]

21 minutes ago, notagain said:

Fiberglass cloth and some epoxy would be the best and easiest fix, you can mold and shape to cover and seal every surface.

Another good idea ...does it come as epoxy putty or a liquid. Is the hardener also putty.

 

Where would I get this from please ... 

[notagain]

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/170x300mm-black-glassfibre-sheet-epoxy-glass-fr4-fibreglass-plate05mm-i255768867-s394481970.html?spm=a2o4m.searchlist.list.35.526e6ccbLqcZ0c&search=1

Lazada has lots of options for cloth, this is a "pre-preg" that has the epoxy in it that you use a heat gun to set it with no epoxy needed but shipping time is long Im sure you can find some other sellers on there locally. Another option is to find an automotive paint store who should have repair kits with everything needed in a kit. You can use most any epoxy as long as it is thin enough to saturate the cloth.

[Formaleins]

Often you can use a fire or blowtorch to heat the plastic pipe until it is soft, then force one piece of the pipe into the other, once it cools you can use cotton or gauze soaked with that pvc adhesive to form a seal - like using roven wovem when building up layers of fibreglass matting.

[flbkk]

They have repair kits in USA that fix this sort of thing, not sure what’s available here. If you had too, Amazon ships to LOS pretty fast.

[KhaoYai]

From the photos it looks as if its been 'bodged' a few times and still hasn't worked. It may be a bigger job but you'll regret it if you don't do it properly - take the lot out and start again, even the 90 degree bend below.  To achieve a tight seal the wastepipe needs to be cut flush with the floor tiles (when its all fixed and set - not before) and the rubber seal slots into it.

 

I had a similar problem recently on a loo that had been installed by a contractor - he used tube after tube of silicone trying to fix the problem until in the end I insisted that he replaced the lot and used the seal properly - problem fixed.

 

You see a lot of this in Thailand - often the hole doesn't line up with the toilet mounting location properly so the Thai's finish the pipe a few inches below the floor level and cut a slot in the concrete!  As I say, the rubber seal is designed to slot into the wastepipe, you'll struggle to get a permanent seal if it doesn't.

[yankyoakum]

Hate to butt in but make sure the bore is clean, use acetone or rubbing alcohol on a rag and insure there is no poo, grease or oil residue on existing before slipping the pipe sleeve in. When the sleeve is fitted make sure that its snug around the top, if one side has a gap around outside of pipe fill around with a little cement or epoxy. The western style plate anchor and wax rings work great. But there is a lot of weight/downward pressure when people sit on a toilet so make sure the toilet base is solid. The wax ring squishes as the 2 bolts are tightened, go back an forth from side to side while tightening to pull it down even. I used white silicone/silastic around the toilet base after everything was set. Was a whole lot easier to do when I was in my 40's than in my 60's when I had to do the last one....Good luck. 

[JAS21]

33 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

From the photos it looks as if its been 'bodged' a few times and still hasn't worked. It may be a bigger job but you'll regret it if you don't do it properly - take the lot out and start again, even the 90 degree bend below.  To achieve a tight seal the wastepipe needs to be cut flush with the floor tiles (when its all fixed and set - not before) and the rubber seal slots into it.

 

I had a similar problem recently on a loo that had been installed by a contractor - he used tube after tube of silicone trying to fix the problem until in the end I insisted that he replaced the lot and used the seal properly - problem fixed.

 

You see a lot of this in Thailand - often the hole doesn't line up with the toilet mounting location properly so the Thai's finish the pipe a few inches below the floor level and cut a slot in the concrete!  As I say, the rubber seal is designed to slot into the wastepipe, you'll struggle to get a permanent seal if it doesn't.

What rubber seal is this??

[Khaeng Mak]

Auto parts and paint shops here sell ATM brand body filler (Yanks call it Bondo).  It comes in a big yellow tin along with a tube of hardener.  A Thai friend of mine builds boats for a living and he uses this along with blue PVC piping to do the inner ribs of his projects.  I restored a couple of classic cars last year and used the same product.  It is surprisingly good quality, easy to work with, and sets like a rock.  I buy a big gallon tin for less than 300 baht.

 

You could prep the damaged side of the blue pipe with some sand paper and then just mix up some filler and fill the void in the concrete next to the pile with a slight cone shape that just overlaps down inside the blue pipe. The body filler does not stick to cellophane, future board or wax.  So you could use any of these, or combination thereof to ensure your filler is molded to the right shape.  You could also buy a new top flange and coat it in wax and use it to mold your filler into shape.

Edited March 10, 2019 by Khaeng Mak

[xerostar]

 The OP's problem was different of course but my idea can be used successfully for new installations if no wax ring is available. I installed 2 toilet pans without using a wax seal.  I found a piece of pvc pipe that was a close fit inside the pipe emerging from the floor. You can make one as described by other posters to get the correct diameter. It was about 12 cm long. I was able to shape it so that it fit over the porcelain outlet at the bottom of the toilet pan. I made sure it was 90° to the base of the pan, then I glued that on with a good quality silicone (Seka) and allowed it to set for a day with the pan inverted. Then i applied copious amounts of silicone to the outside of the pipe now protruding about 10cm below the pan, also some to the inside of the floor pipe. Then I carefully lowed the pan onto the existing floor pipe. The silicone formed a ring that sealed the two pipes together. From memory the grout was also prepared so the pan sat firmly on the tiles at the same time.

 

[Khaeng Mak]

Don't use the sleeve idea it is destined for failure.  If you don't want to use body filler than you should use a right angled rubber tapping knife and score the blue pipe inside at the same level at the damage.  Then use your already destroyed chisel to chip out the top section of the pipe.  Then get another two pieces of pipe.  Heat the end of one while slowly rotating it over your gas stove.  Take care not to blacken the plastic.  Once it is soft you can force it down inside the other piece of pipe to create your own flange.

 

Then you can glue this new bit of pipe with your flange down inside the existing pipe that you have trimmed off square.  As other posters have already told you make sure you clean the inside of the old pipe with acetone (or your wife's nail polish remover) to ensure the blue glue sticks well.  Then seal the concrete around the new pipe with body filler.

[Tonyt00]

Lots of ideas here, but I wouldnt use the fiberglass or bondo, and Im a boat builder! If there is any moisture, oil or silicon, it wont stick. 

[JAS21]

A little progress this evening …nearly seventy four now so can’t rush these jobs anyway she will only give me another one when this is done.

 

So basically a clean up so that ‘the dog can see the rabbit’

 

As an aside I have kept a plastic pot down the bottom of the pipe to collect any bits that drop down. I have also tied a bit of string to any tool I used in case one drops down whilst the pot is not in place, and the pot has a piece of string on it, dropped it off for the pics….YES the other end of the strings are tied to something solid.

 

Looking back I should have bleached the whole area before starting work as I haven’t worn gloves all the time.

 

I used a rotary wire brush to remove the old ‘glue’ from inside the pipe and PPE. HSE would have been proud! And now there are no protrusions above the tiles.

 

After considering the options I’m of the opinion to initially try to sleeve with just the single split in the pipe … but if it’s too inflexible then the double split and ‘weld’ together with solvent cement. I know what sealant I want to use, it never sets rock hard and Thia Watsadu stock it, but can’t recall the name.

 

And as before I will cut the bottom at 45 degrees so the water will still go around the bend and then trim the top of the sleeve level with the tiles.

 

The gap that I will have on the left I need to fill with something solid, probably with cement so that I can screw into it ‘the kit’ shown in #10. I’ll have to let the cement cure for a few days before I can drill and plug.

 

Pipe shop tomorrow ….

 

Edited March 10, 2019 by JAS21

[JAS21]

1 hour ago, Khaeng Mak said:

Don't use the sleeve idea it is destined for failure.  If you don't want to use body filler than you should use a right angled rubber tapping knife and score the blue pipe inside at the same level at the damage.  Then use your already destroyed chisel to chip out the top section of the pipe.  Then get another two pieces of pipe.  Heat the end of one while slowly rotating it over your gas stove.  Take care not to blacken the plastic.  Once it is soft you can force it down inside the other piece of pipe to create your own flange.

 

Then you can glue this new bit of pipe with your flange down inside the existing pipe that you have trimmed off square.  As other posters have already told you make sure you clean the inside of the old pipe with acetone (or your wife's nail polish remover) to ensure the blue glue sticks well.  Then seal the concrete around the new pipe with body filler.

Interesting option ... it could be successful, but it could also be fraught with danger ...

[KhaoYai]

5 hours ago, JAS21 said:

What rubber seal is this??

There should have been a seal kit with the toilet when it was new - similar to the one in the photo supplied by Wayned on P1. They slip into the top of the outlet pipe and go between the toilet and the floor. They are also available separately.

 

I found mine in the bin and gave the contractor a bollocking for not using them - he used silicone.  They were used on the refit!

 

You have to remember that, with whatever type of repair you choose to employ, there's a hell of a lot  of water going down there for a few seconds at quite a speed. Poor seals = leaks. Silicone instead of rubber seals also = leaks eventually.

 

Update:

 

I've just looked at your latest photos and seen the 'slotting' I refer to in my previous post - why they can't get the toilet in the right place first time is beyond me.  Remember, westerners use paper and paper snags leading to blockages - everything needs to be smooth and in line.  Mine were like that and I made them cut new holes in the floor and move the pipe so that it aligned with the toilet correctly.  You cannot use the seals I refer to above whilst your aperture is like that.

Edited March 10, 2019 by KhaoYai

[Crossy]

Hmmm. When the pan is in place does the exit line up with the blue pipe?

 

I wonder if that "damaged" area was actually an attempt to get things to align properly during the initial installation cock-up.

 

I think @KhaoYai has the same idea.

[Crossy]

9 hours ago, JAS21 said:

anyway she will only give me another one when this is done.

 

Tell me about that one.

 

Sunday's required task was a "gate open" indicator for the electric gates as we can no longer see them from the house due to Madam's trees growing like there's no tomorrow. The resultant "on whilst open, flash whilst moving" light met with approval, phew ???? I wonder what the next task she has lined up will be.