Income Method - are immigration moving the goal posts again

[sumrit]

28 minutes ago, trd said:

No I don't. I have had no contact whatsoever with the UK tax office. I have lived here for more than 20 years. Why would I?

Were you already receiving your state pension when you moved to Thailand 20 years ago?

[trd]

Ditto but you can get a P60 from UK Tax dept showing your total earnings  & taxation level.  This SHOULD be enough & straightforward for even the average Immigration officer to understand.  But this will be deemed insufficient.
Someone above mentioned having no alternative.  Wrong - I'm checking out Vietnam to see if they value my pensions more than Thailand.

Do you know what a P60 is? You get it if you are drawing a salary for employment in the UK. Why would I have a P60 if I'm not resident in the UK or working in the UK. What are you talking about? You don't get a P60 for pension. You are also making a big assumption that an IO would accept a P60. Where does that idea come from? Why do people keep assuming that IO's are going to accept bits of paper that they think are okay and should be accepted?

[xylophone]

2 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

 

 

Do we really want to take the risk of the IO saying its insufficient evidence, 12 months faffing about transferring monthly 65k+ and they reject it because the IO doesn't understand the documentation which they probably don't want to see anyway

 

Agree with that and also agree that they can change the requirements however and whenever they want, especially if it suits them to try and get a bit of extra tea money.

 

On top of that, I contacted my Bangkok bank branch in London and asked that they send my money over from the pension people, as sterling, to be converted here to baht so that it is seen as an international transfer, and the good folk at Bangkok bank London, and one particular lady who is an absolute gem (Karen) gave me a letter to send to the pension people asking them to send my pension to a different account so they could transfer it in sterling.

 

After about a week I got an email from the pension people saying that they couldn't do anything via email and I would have to phone them, which I did. And hanging on for about 15 minutes didn't make my mood any better, but I was calm and collected when I spoke to the lady there and told her what I wanted and she said it wasn't possible! I told her that they were already sending it to the Bangkok bank branch in London so all I was asking was that they still did it but to a different account.........she said she didn't think it was possible but she would ask the banking people and the "banking people" said that if I hadn't opened that account/was not my true account, then they wouldn't do it (remember Bangkok bank open that particular avenue for expats here) for me.

 

So I'm stuck with the pension people paying it into my London Bangkok bank account and being converted to baht there and baht being transferred to Bangkok bank here, but not showing up as an international transfer which is what I wanted to be able to qualify for the 65K method – – in fact the status quo.

 

That's the reason I have now firmly committed to the 800 K option, because there are too many variables in the monthly income option and as Scuba has said, it will be too bloody late to do anything about it after waiting a year and turning up at immigration and being refused. 

Edited March 14, 2019 by xylophone

[trd]

Were you already receiving your state pension when you moved to Thailand 20 years ago?

No I wasn't. You do know what a p60 is for?

[gk10002000]

2 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

2 hours ago, thaitero said:

I think the point is to see you do not cycle same money to thailand and back to your home country.

Maybe so but there are many legit ways farang can get the money to transfer over. No way immigration will be able to cope with the documentation to prove how its generated

Exactly, but they don't seem to need nor want to cope with it.  If it is not black and white, and clear somehow, well, they may deny it

[sumrit]

30 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

irrelevant for most people.

"A P60 is a form that shows how much taxable salary the employee was paid in the tax year and how much tax was deducted from their wages. An employer must give aP60 to each of their employees at the end of the tax year"
 

Not irrelevant at all. Not just from employment, you get a P60 from all PAYE income sources, regardless of whether income tax has been paid on that source or not.

19 minutes ago, trd said:

Do you know what a P60 is? You get it if you are drawing a salary for employment in the UK.

Not just from employment, you get a P60 from all PAYE income sources, regardless of whether income tax has been paid on that source or not.

19 minutes ago, trd said:

You don't get a P60 for pension.

YES YOU DO. 

 

I am retired and have three pensions, one state pension (on which NO income tax is paid), one company pension (on which I pay tax) and one private pension source (which again I pay tax on)

 

Every year I receive three separate P60's, covering each pension. Two show the amount of income tax I have paid, the one from DWP shows no income tax paid.

 

You would also receive an annual letter from DWP outlining your pension for the coming financial year.

 

When you applied for your state pension you had to give them your address and, assuming you haven't changed it with DWP that's where those documents are sent each year.

Edited March 14, 2019 by sumrit

[trd]

YES YOU DO. 

 

I am retired and have three pensions, one state pension (on which NO income tax is paid), one company pension (on which I pay tax) and one private pension source (which again I pay tax on)

 

Every year I receive three separate P60's, covering each pension. Two show the amount of income tax I have paid, the one from DWP shows no income tax paid.

 

You would also receive an annual letter from DWP outlining your pension for the coming financial year.

 

When you applied for your state pension you had to give them your address and, assuming you haven't changed it with DWP that's where those documents are sent each year.

I got a letter last year informing me what I get for the state pension increase for the year but no p60 as far as I can remember. Anyway this might be completely irrelevant because I see no evidence that immigration will accept a P60. Do you?

 

[LOSBound2014]

I'm late to this whole discussion, but as I mentioned in another thread, there is a HUGE difference between asking for a "proof of income" of over 65,000/month in your home country, and requiring proof of 65,000/month be transferred into a bank in Thailand.  The first is asking for GROSS income, while the second is asking for NET income.  Fortunately, the Canadian Embassy still issues the income letter based on gross income, as I qualify for that.  However, for me, transferring 65,000/month would have been an impossibility, due to two factors: taxes being taken off at the source, plus the fall of the Canadian dollar relative to the baht.   For those from one of the 4 countries who are living close to the financial edge, as I have been for the past 5 years, then this new policy change will have been devastating, and I have great sympathy for them. 

Edited March 14, 2019 by LOSBound2014

[trd]

I'm late to this whole discussion, but as I mentioned in another thread, there is a HUGE difference between asking for a "proof of income" of over 65,000/month in your home country, and requiring proof of 65,000/month be transferred into a bank in Thailand.  The first is asking for GROSS income, while the second is asking for NET income.  Fortunately, the Canadian Embassy still issues the income letter based on gross income, as I qualify for that.  However, for me, transferring 65,000/month would have been an impossibility, due to two factors: taxes being taken off at the source, plus the fall of the Canadian dollar relative to the baht.   For those from one of the 4 countries who are living close to the financial edge, as I have been for the past 5 years, then this new policy change will have been devastating, and I have great sympathy for them. 

If it's not 65k you can just make up the difference with a lump sum. Easy.

[albertik]

What, pray tell, is a "credit advise/receipt? Is it simply a form from the bank attesting to your  monthly receipt of funds from abroad? Does the bank use this terminology or something other? Thanks for any constructive replies.

[stud858]

3 hours ago, freedomnow said:

Why doesn't someone send a text message to BJ in Thai about getting all offices on the same page regarding this ? As much as he is hardline to foreigners, he is also hardline to the slobs in Imm. offices.

I'm not a retiree, just an observation that there appears to be a line open to him and from what I read that particular office is a pure headache on the make.

I think a good way would be to have imm offices post a sign saying as a foreigner, if you feel the rules have not been followed or are not being treated fairly then post all details to a certain address of BJ office.

But I haven't seen a sign, so you know...

 

[Longcut]

3 hours ago, baansgr said:

Some people were not lucky enough to have gold plated pensions so with deterating annuity rates invested elsewhere for a better return. Stating has to be from a regonised  pension fund is ludicrous and many won't be able to do that. 

Most pensions, gold plated or not is something most people worked a lifetime to achieve.  If you missed out on it, that's your fault. No one else's. Do I feel guilty that I have a good pension that I worked hard for and you do not? Not in the least.

[pmarlin]

17 minutes ago, albertik said:

What, pray tell, is a "credit advise/receipt? Is it simply a form from the bank attesting to your  monthly receipt of funds from abroad? Does the bank use this terminology or something other? Thanks for any constructive replies.

Yes to all of it

[sumrit]

4 minutes ago, trd said:

I got a letter last year informing me what I get for the state pension increase for the year but no p60 as far as I can remember. Anyway this might be completely irrelevant because I see no evidence that immigration will accept a P60. Do you?

As of yet, Immigration have not said what they will accept as proof, but the very fact that they are asking for proof of the FOREIGN source of our income, by definition, means that documentary proof MUST be a foreign document. At least a P60 and/or your annual DWP letter are Government documents so are more likely to be accepted.

 

I personally think Immigration will (initially) use this option to 'weed out' the more suspect applicants then, over time, it will be relegated to the back burner and rarely used. The first twelve months or so after 30th June this year will be an interesting time. This info is likely to be added to the list of required documents and I think it will be important to have all required documentation completed and presented properly. IO's will initially be looking for incomplete and badly presented paperwork to study more. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

0

[trd]

3 hours ago, sumrit said:

As of yet, Immigration have not said what they will accept as proof, but the very fact that they are asking for proof of the FOREIGN source of our income, by definition, means that documentary proof MUST be a foreign document. At least a P60 and/or your annual DWP letter are Government documents so are more likely to be accepted.
 
I personally think Immigration will (initially) use this option to 'weed out' the more suspect applicants then, over time, it will be relegated to the back burner and rarely used. The first twelve months or so after 30th June this year will be an interesting time. This info is likely to be added to the list of required documents and I think it will be important to have all required documentation completed and presented properly. IO's will initially be looking for incomplete and badly presented paperwork to study more. 

They might ask for it to be certified. They can have any foreign documentation they want. Just give me a couple of hours to make it in Photoshop.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

1 hour ago, pmarlin said:

Yesterday while doing my retirement extension using the Income Letter (American) at CW. I showed a letter along with credit advice/receipt for each FTT to my account at Bangkok Bank for the last 12 months. I was told that is what I would need next year . For 12 months it required 2 letters (they can only put 8 or 9 transfers on a letter) . Cost 200 baht for the 2 letters and 500 baht for the credit advice/receipt forms. Total 700 baht. Cheaper than the embassy income letter. 

 

Thanks for recounting clearly just what CW BKK will be looking for in the future for monthly income retirement extension application documentation.

 

For this year, though, I assume your post above means they also accepted your late 2018 income affidavit from the U.S. Embassy, same as in the past?  Even though we've had some reports of other offices beginning to refuse valid income affidavits either beyond Jan. 1 or beyond March 1.

 

[JackThompson]

2 hours ago, sumrit said:

Although not normally requested, Immigration have always had the option of requesting the source of the income. This is not new. Nothing has changed.

True - but no reports of that from Jomtien, before - just the problem offices like Phuket and Chiang Mai.

 

Quote

I suspect that with the reports of apparent widespread abuse of the use agents and income affidavits that led to the recent changes, I think Immigration will initially ask for proof of income source from many more extension applicants to try to prevent people from recycling the same 65k/40k every month.

Use of agents is still welcomed, though the IOs gave themselves a "raise" in agent-money, under the cover of a crackdown. 

 

Changing the standard from "monthly average total income" to "income remitted to Thailand monthly" also increased potential agent-revenues.

 

Any faker (money-recycler) would just fake a source-document.  As in ...

 

4 minutes ago, trd said:

They can have any foreign documentation they want. Just give me a couple of hours to make it in Photoshop.

There is no way Thai-Immigration could check the validity of it - no pension-org is going to be answering their inquiries.  Therefore, only honest-people who have the income, but don't have a "state pension" type letter, will be affected. 

People in that category, and not willing to become document-forgers, will now have to pay off immigration via their agent-partners or go out for Visas (Non-OA, Non-O-ME, etc) in place of "extensions of stay."

[scubascuba3]

Most pensions, gold plated or not is something most people worked a lifetime to achieve.  If you missed out on it, that's your fault. No one else's. Do I feel guilty that I have a good pension that I worked hard for and you do not? Not in the least.

Don't forget though these people with gold plate pensions or whatever you want to call them have probably plodded away for a long time in the same company being underpaid, whilst others have moved around earning more, so it comes out in the wash

[scubascuba3]

What, pray tell, is a "credit advise/receipt? Is it simply a form from the bank attesting to your  monthly receipt of funds from abroad? Does the bank use this terminology or something other? Thanks for any constructive replies.

The credit advice from Kasikorn gives full details of the transfer, from who and address, amount, any intermediary banks and then recipient details, proves it comes from abroad

[The Deerhunter]

2 hours ago, FredGallaher said:

Yesterday I successfully renewed my retirement extension using the American Consulate letter. I asked the officer about next year and showed my Kasikorn bank statement from Jan 1, 2019. It included a transfer this month (80,000 B) from BOA. I told her that when IDD from social security kicks in I'll use SS IDD (my ss is >6500 B) She said I could make monthly transfers from overseas for next year but bring the documents. So when I go to immigrations next year, I'll  print out 12 months of statements, have the bank verify (sign and stamp each page and get a letter saying deposits were monthly. She said that sounds good. She also said I could qualify for deposits in bank with my balance. She said that that how it stands now but could change.  

So I will transfer B 6500/month plus each month and get Kasikorn Bank to verify.

I renewed in Nan and they were very polite and friendly. Even my wife who retired from Nordstrom's in USA said their customer service was great. I was in and out in about 30 minutes.

 

That matches my experience.  The silly thing is asking for proof of 12 months of 65,000 baht transfers now!   The law may have intended it to mean that before as some have explained, but it was never interpreted that way before now.  It was only exactly expressed that way in very late 2018 and I am sure they meant that that rule started on March 01 this year if you want to do an extension in later 2019 or 2020.  It even said somewhere that part year compliance (since March 2019) would be acceptable the first year.  Probably that would be after July 01 for citizens of the 4 countries letters would be by then older than 6 months.   The problem all started when they said that they wanted all embassies to vet the income to make sure it was not a lie and 4 embassies said they could not/ would not verify income, so they would cease to issue letters..   My embassy now wrote that my income is overseas is in excess of 65000B per month but is derived from pension AND INVESTMENTS.  That caused some problems last week for me when I renewed my April 03 Extension, (deliberately early so, I would have time to recover my situation by another means if I had to.)   They clearly were unhappy with the wording and asked me if I also had the money in the bank here, which I do not.    I absolutely don't want to be known to have 800,000 available in a bank here!!!!!   I scratched through but have been told I will receive a visit from an I.O. in the next month to quiz the family here that I really do live here.  Almost all branches were doing it only fro Spousal extensions.   BTW only foreign men married to Thai women need to show income.  Foreign women married to Thai men apparently do not need to show income.   (Human rights discrimination on gender?????)

But as we all know, interpretation and implementation of laws varies between branches of every government dept in LOS.   I suggest what my office advised me to do several years ago;  visit your local I. O a month or two before extension date and confirm what they want (and hope they don't change the rules before you come back.)

 

[Spidey]

4 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

The reason this is an issue is some people are over 50 but not drawing a pension so are transferring in cash or selling investments etc.

How would it have been possible, in the past, to obtain an embassy income letter, if you don't have a definable income in your own country?

[wwest5829]

3 hours ago, Time Traveller said:

The thing is, Income is a very subjective term as is really depends up each countries laws over what is considered income. For example, selling investments in many countries is considered income as the sale of an asset is considered a Taxable event. 

The problem is Thailand immigration are morons. The only way effective way to determine someone's income is a copy of their individual tax filing because lying on that has serious legal ramifications. Immigration would save so many headaches and wasted time if they just required every applicant for extension of stay to show their tax returns.

 

Hmm, I am thinking the easiest way for Thai Immigration is to simply see 65,000 baht a month (income method) transferred into my Bangkok Bank designated as a FTT. No muss, no fuss, no bother. Dependent (ha!) on all offices being consistent. 

[sumrit]

2 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

Don't forget though these people with gold plate pensions or whatever you want to call them have probably plodded away for a long time in the same company being underpaid, whilst others have moved around earning more, so it comes out in the wash

 

But those of us who 'have probably plodded away for a long time in the same company being underpaid' now hopefully receive our half-decent pensions while those who 'have moved around earning more' probably spent most of that extra income 'p*ss**g it up the wall'.

 

Everybody makes their own choices. 

[sumrit]

5 minutes ago, wwest5829 said:

Hmm, I am thinking the easiest way for Thai Immigration is to simply see 65,000 baht a month (income method) transferred into my Bangkok Bank designated as a FTT. No muss, no fuss, no bother. Dependent (ha!) on all offices being consistent. 

1

And therein lies the problem, Thai thinking and Farang thinking is not always from the same page. ????

[jesimps]

2 hours ago, sumrit said:

Although not normally requested, Immigration have always had the option of requesting the source of the income. This is not new. Nothing has changed.

 

I suspect that with the reports of apparent widespread abuse of the use agents and income affidavits that led to the recent changes, I think Immigration will initially ask for proof of income source from many more extension applicants to try to prevent people from recycling the same 65k/40k every month.

 

 

Your UK state pension is probably below the UK tax-free allowance. If you don't pay any tax your total UK income, from all sources, must be less than £11,800 pa. HMRC would normally hold a record of those (taxable) income sources.

What widespread abuse? Grateful for genuine sources.

Edited March 14, 2019 by jesimps

[JackThompson]

10 minutes ago, The Deerhunter said:

My embassy now wrote that my income is overseas is in excess of 65000B per month but is derived from pension AND INVESTMENTS.  That caused some problems last week for me when I renewed my April 03 Extension, (deliberately early so, I would have time to recover my situation by another means if I had to.)   They clearly were unhappy with the wording and asked me if I also had the money in the bank here, which I do not.    I absolutely don't want to be known to have 800,000 available in a bank here!!!!!   I scratched through but have been told I will receive a visit from an I.O. in the next month to quiz the family here that I really do live here. 

 

Almost all branches were doing it only fro Spousal extensions.   

This was my experience, as well.  If you are "married to a Thai" then your foreign-income can only be a "pension" at some offices - though it appears they are expanding that trick to retirees, in some offices, as you experienced.

 

13 minutes ago, Spidey said:

How would it have been possible, in the past, to obtain an embassy income letter, if you don't have a definable income in your own country? 

Past year's income divided-by 12, if there was no reason to foresee a change from that year to the next. 

 

8 minutes ago, wwest5829 said:

Hmm, I am thinking the easiest way for Thai Immigration is to simply see 65,000 baht a month (income method) transferred into my Bangkok Bank designated as a FTT. No muss, no fuss, no bother. Dependent (ha!) on all offices being consistent. 

Yes - but the issue is, you may need to show some passport-country document showing where that income originated - and there is uncertainty as to which types of income qualify (varying by immigration office).

[sumrit]

2 minutes ago, jesimps said:

What widespread abuse? Grateful for sources.

TV threads for one. Just look at the threads that were started towards the end of last year when these extension changes first filtered through. Read all the hundreds of posts by panicking expats

[jesimps]

1 hour ago, trd said:

1 hour ago, mikebell said:

Ditto but you can get a P60 from UK Tax dept showing your total earnings  & taxation level.  This SHOULD be enough & straightforward for even the average Immigration officer to understand.  But this will be deemed insufficient.
Someone above mentioned having no alternative.  Wrong - I'm checking out Vietnam to see if they value my pensions more than Thailand.

Do you know what a P60 is? You get it if you are drawing a salary for employment in the UK. Why would I have a P60 if I'm not resident in the UK or working in the UK. What are you talking about? You don't get a P60 for pension. You are also making a big assumption that an IO would accept a P60. Where does that idea come from? Why do people keep assuming that IO's are going to accept bits of paper that they think are okay and should be accepted?

I get an annual P60 for my works pension.

[scubascuba3]

But those of us who 'have probably plodded away for a long time in the same company being underpaid' now hopefully receive our half-decent pensions while those who 'have moved around earning more' probably spent most of that extra income 'p*ss**g it up the wall'.
 

Some would have pissed it up the wall and still do no doubt, the rest of us probably invested it and got a nice return. I always felt sorry for the plodders really, always underpaid and taken advantage of, employer knew they wouldn't leave

[scubascuba3]

How would it have been possible, in the past, to obtain an embassy income letter, if you don't have a definable income in your own country?

Yes it wouldn't have been possible before, i never said it was, but based on previous threads and millions of posts i decided to do the monthly 65k+ transfers rather than the 800k method, waste of time it seems so I'm switching to the original plan of 800k