Income Method - are immigration moving the goal posts again

[UKresonant]

Apart from on my first visit to Thailand in 1993, in a cafe/bar guest house, near DMK, I was confronted by a drunk policeman who was having a bad day, he was upset about something, and at one point I thought he was going to draw his 9mm. His two colleagues came quickly over, and convinced him back to the table that they were sitting at. Since then I've never had a problem with any Thai official, other than explaining that a document they wanted did not exist in Scotland, only in England. Once they spent 10mins on the phone, with the office of the court, all was well again.

 

I think you can tag a transfer with any reference you want, I always tag it with "abrev'd name of bank acc" then "savings".

 

As long as you have proof of your income in home country, and that income then being deposited in a home country bank, that would be proof of source. I would not show any trail directly crediting a pension to a Thai bank, I think I would be referencing as "2018 pension" if sending it in 2019.  The proof of income is the pension organisation, or investment company sending it to the initial receiving bank. Transferring it to Thailand is then your action, so no need to trace it through, as long as you can prove it a legit. source, that covers the 40k/65k a month?

 

[scubascuba3]

For a retirement Extension it needs to be pre-seasoned  for 2 months, and maintained at 800,000 for 3 months after the extension is granted. Then 400,000 must be maintained for 6 months (hence 400,000 can be drawn). BUT, for a subsequent extension you need it back up to 800,000 again. (The rule states for 2 months, but some offices are requiring 3).  

Amusing that they don't seem bothered about checking the 400k

[jacko45k]

7 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

Amusing that they don't seem bothered about checking the 400k

Do you mean for a marriage Ext or the 400k/6 months (or maybe 7) for the rretirement Ext? If the latter, I expect it will be checked on your next Ext application, and some offices may do it along with the 90 day reports. 

Edited March 15, 2019 by jacko45k

[scubascuba3]

Do you mean for a marriage Ext or the 400k/6 months (or maybe 7) for the rretirement Ext? If the latter, I expect it will be checked on your next Ext application, and some offices may do it along with the 90 day reports. 

They are making a fuss about checking the 800k after 3 months but don't seem fussed about checking the 400k, of course both could be checked perfectly well annually on the next extension

[markthree]

Let's be clear on UK State pension. It is always paid without deduction of tax. BUT. It counts towards your annual income and if your total income is over the personal allowance ( in my case 12500 pounds ) then it is taxed by deduction from other incomes. So you receive your pension gross but you do pay tax on it.

[lamyai3]

7 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

1 hour ago, jacko45k said:

Do you mean for a marriage Ext or the 400k/6 months (or maybe 7) for the rretirement Ext? If the latter, I expect it will be checked on your next Ext application, and some offices may do it along with the 90 day reports. 

They are making a fuss about checking the 800k after 3 months but don't seem fussed about checking the 400k, of course both could be checked perfectly well annually on the next extension

Yes, this is what they've said they'll do. This new rule means retirement extensions can now be denied retroactively, based on a failure to comply with the rules of the previous year's extension. 

[mikebell]

21 hours ago, trd said:

You don't get a P60 for pension. You are also making a big assumption that an IO would accept a P60.

Yes you do - it's a statement of tax paid whether for working or drawing pensions. 

 

I am only suggesting a simple solution for the perplexed IO.  It would work equally well for UK Embassy to provide letters to those submitting P60s.

[Captain 776]

I have my Social Security (which by itself exceeds 65,000) plus 2 other monthly deposits going into Bangkok Bank N Y City.

 

So I printed it out and took it to Airport Immigration to show them and wait to renew time and then I find out they want something else and I have no time to address it.

 

Thankfully they said that will be fine but still told me to have my branch here print the statement on bank letterhead, sign it, and bring that and the bank book.

 

OK.....easy enough and glad I asked because I would have just brought the bank book and wold have had to make a second trip.

[gk10002000]

20 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

21 hours ago, Longcut said:

Most pensions, gold plated or not is something most people worked a lifetime to achieve.  If you missed out on it, that's your fault. No one else's. Do I feel guilty that I have a good pension that I worked hard for and you do not? Not in the least.

Don't forget though these people with gold plate pensions or whatever you want to call them have probably plodded away for a long time in the same company being underpaid, whilst others have moved around earning more, so it comes out in the wash

Scuba, don't make such a global generalization about pensions, obtaining, or not obtaining.  I don't have a pension but I was a contractor for 19 years.  I made my own investments, IRAs (Roth and Traditional), 401ks, etc.  I invest for dividends and interest income, not particularly concerned about capital growth.  I currently get over $60k USD a year in dividends and interest, much of which is tax free.  And this year I qualify for Social Security, which I won't take right away, but which will add another 25 K a year at the moment. Many companies today do NOT offer pensions.  I work for a major aerospace firm (Northrop) and they have been radically changing the pension plan regularly.  At the moment, new employees hired three years ago do not get a pension.  The only benefit they get is 6% matching contribution put into the traditional pre tax part of their 401k plan, if the employee puts in a minimum of 8%.   

[pmarlin]

22 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Thanks for recounting clearly just what CW BKK will be looking for in the future for monthly income retirement extension application documentation.

 

For this year, though, I assume your post above means they also accepted your late 2018 income affidavit from the U.S. Embassy, same as in the past?  Even though we've had some reports of other offices beginning to refuse valid income affidavits either beyond Jan. 1 or beyond March 1.

 

Correct they took the embassy letter.

[Joe Mcseismic]

18 hours ago, gentlemanjackdarby said:

Not picking on you, but I've read the comment about IOs dealing with bank statements, income tax returns, etc. in multiple foreign languages and today I feel like replying since no one else has seen fit to do so:

 

Immigration could simply require that documents in another language be translated into the Thai language and certified by a competent translator

 

For example, when applying for a Philippines SRRV, the PRA (Philippines Retirement Authority) requires that any documents not in English be translated into English and, in the case of the PI, certified by their embassy (for those applying outside the PI) - It isn't a difficult or novel idea

 

It's a win-win for everyone - folks needing something from Immigration have much less hassle and the powers-that-be could appoint certain translators and translation companies as 'preferred' or 'certified' translators. The translators would then pay a 'preference' or 'certification' fee' to maintain their status and everybody's happy 

Why are people suggesting things that they know full well that immigration will never do?

The rules are very simple now. For retirement 800k/65kpm in a Thai bank. It is easy to check for TI. Why would they complicate things for themselves? You think that immigration appointing translators is a Win situation for them? Are you maybe projecting your own idea of a "Win" on to imigration? Dream on.

It is not TI job to make it easy for foreigners to stay in Thailand. Their job is to enforce immigration laws that were passed by the government.

Edited March 15, 2019 by Joe Mcseismic

[Joe Mcseismic]

15 hours ago, malibukid said:

i think all this will change after the elections.  expect major reforms at TI.  no one is on the same page. went to Bangkok Bank today at KSK clueless and unpleasant. 

And you know this how? A feeling in your water? A movement in the Force?

[theoldgit]

On 3/14/2019 at 11:20 AM, trd said:

On 3/14/2019 at 11:18 AM, Henryford said:

But you must have a P60 yes, shows your income and tax deducted.

No I don't. I have had no contact whatsoever with the UK tax office. I have lived here for more than 20 years. Why would I?

The HMRC don't issue P60's it's the pension provider.
My tax allowance is reduced by the amount of my State Pension, at the end of the year my pension provider, Civil Service Pensions, issue my P60.

[SheungWan]

2 hours ago, markthree said:

Let's be clear on UK State pension. It is always paid without deduction of tax. BUT. It counts towards your annual income and if your total income is over the personal allowance ( in my case 12500 pounds ) then it is taxed by deduction from other incomes. So you receive your pension gross but you do pay tax on it.

You do not pay tax on your state pension. 

[scubascuba3]

The rules are very simple now. For retirement 800k/65kpm in a Thai bank. It is easy to check for TI. Why would they complicate things for themselves?

It's not as simple as that hence the thread

[Joe Mcseismic]

2 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

 

 

It's not as simple as that hence the thread

 

Yes, it really is as simple as that. With the 65k method, the bank book has to show from overseas. People will have to choose a bank, or, transfer method that unambiguously prooves that it has come from overseas.

Combination method is complicated and I wouldn't be surprised if it goes the way of the Dodo.

[scubascuba3]

Yes, it really is as simple as that. With the 65k method, the bank book has to show from overseas. People will have to choose a bank, or, transfer method that unambiguously prooves that it has come from overseas.
Combination method is complicated and I wouldn't be surprised if it goes the way of the Dodo.

you've missed the point, Jomtien wanted to see evidence of source of income abroad

[gentlemanjackdarby]

5 hours ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

Why are people suggesting things that they know full well that immigration will never do?

The rules are very simple now. For retirement 800k/65kpm in a Thai bank. It is easy to check for TI. Why would they complicate things for themselves? You think that immigration appointing translators is a Win situation for them? Are you maybe projecting your own idea of a "Win" on to imigration? Dream on.

It is not TI job to make it easy for foreigners to stay in Thailand. Their job is to enforce immigration laws that were passed by the government.

You are absolutely 100% correct that 'The rules are very simple now'

 

The problem, as with most 'simple rules', is in the implementation and for those of us who've been paying attention to the recent changes, TI seems to be having one helluva time understanding and implementing the so-called 'simple rules'

 

There have been multiple threads on this forum in which TI seems to have a lot of difficulty even with Thai bank statements

 

You are also absolutely 100% correct, and I couldn't agree more, that 'It is not TI (sic) job to make it easy for foreigners to stay in Thailand. Their job is to enforce immigration laws that were passed by the government'

 

Since you seem to worship at the alter of 'simple', that again seems to present an insurmountable barrier to TI; again, for those of us paying attention, there have been a lot of threads in which TI did (is doing) whatever they please, the immigration law be damned and making a simple thing very, very difficult

 

It speaks volumes that one never seems to read about the same type and sheer number of problems with other SE Asian countries' immigration and visas, where documents must be in the language of the respective countries officialdom, as one does with Thailand.

 

Something to think about  

[smedly]

It is rather ironic that they want to see money going into a Thai bank account and refuse to accept money going into your home bank account - yet they then want to see the money going into your home bank as proof - how daft is that

 

Why not just accept your home bank account to begin with 

[marcusarelus]

1 hour ago, gentlemanjackdarby said:

It speaks volumes that one never seems to read about the same type and sheer number of problems with other SE Asian countries' immigration and visas, where documents must be in the language of the respective countries officialdom, as one does with Thailand.

 

Something to think about  

Burma - no expats there.  Laos and Cambodia - no infrastructure = no expats there.  Vietnam - no retirement visa.  Malaysia Visa too expensive - 10 times Thailand.  Any others you want me to explain?

[Spidey]

7 hours ago, SheungWan said:

You do not pay tax on your state pension. 

Only because it's less than your personal allowance. It counts towards your gross annual income for tax purposes, therefore, if you have other sources of income, you are effectively taxed on it.

[JackThompson]

2 hours ago, gentlemanjackdarby said:

It speaks volumes that one never seems to read about the same type and sheer number of problems with other SE Asian countries' immigration and visas, where documents must be in the language of the respective countries officialdom, as one does with Thailand.

Most other countries want to help their own citizens by letting us stay and spend money there.  Thai immigration could not care less about the well-being of Thais - just how much loot they can stuff in their pockets, and how much work they can avoid.

 

4 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

Burma - no expats there.  Laos and Cambodia - no infrastructure = no expats there.  Vietnam - no retirement visa.  Malaysia Visa too expensive - 10 times Thailand.  Any others you want me to explain?

Malaysia has other issues besides the higher visa-cost - xenophobia to Westerners and our beliefs being a prime-motivator for making stay there difficult.  It is interesting to visit only, IMO.

 

I would alter "Laos" to "No good visa-options, other than fairly expensive "business visa" via agents.  Vientiane has what you need, for the most part, in terms of housing, food, groceries, etc.  Tuk-Tuk drivers are hell, though.

 

Cambodia - Phnom Penh has everything except a decent train-system, so traffic can be awful.  Great beach-options also.  Generally inexpensive to dirt-cheap, depending on choices.  Food doesn't compare to Thailand, but there are Thai restaurants.  Visas approx $300/yr and you can renew in-country.  And it's a "real" multiple-entry visa sticker if 6-mo or longer is purchased (don't have to buy a full-year at once) - so come and go as you like w/ no "re-entry stamp" scam.  Tons of expats from all over living there - good nightlife.  Very cheap beer, but not tasty like Lao's (though that is available imported).

 

Vietnam - easy "business visa" by agent - approx $300/yr in total - 1-year Tourist Visas if USA-Citizen - 3-mo Tourist Visas for everyone else.  No issues with border-bounces / new visa entries.  I haven't lived there, but others report is is great, with plenty of other expats, and growing fast.

[scubascuba3]

Malaysia has other issues besides the higher visa-cost - xenophobia to Westerners and our beliefs being a prime-motivator for making stay there difficult.  It is interesting to visit only, IMO.
 
I would alter "Laos" to "No good visa-options, other than fairly expensive "business visa" via agents.  Vientiane has what you need, for the most part, in terms of housing, food, groceries, etc.  Tuk-Tuk drivers are hell, though.
 
Cambodia - Phnom Penh has everything except a decent train-system, so traffic can be awful.  Great beach-options also.  Generally inexpensive to dirt-cheap, depending on choices.  Food doesn't compare to Thailand, but there are Thai restaurants.  Visas approx $300/yr and you can renew in-country.  And it's a "real" multiple-entry visa sticker if 6-mo or longer is purchased (don't have to buy a full-year at once) - so come and go as you like w/ no "re-entry stamp" scam.  Tons of expats from all over living there - good nightlife.  Very cheap beer, but not tasty like Lao's (though that is available imported).
 
Vietnam - easy "business visa" by agent - approx $300/yr in total - 1-year Tourist Visas if USA-Citizen - 3-mo Tourist Visas for everyone else.  No issues with border-bounces / new visa entries.  I haven't lived there, but others report is is great, with plenty of other expats, and growing fast.

You wouldn't have to live in those places all year though, i could probably handle 3 months Vietnam, 3 months Philippines, 6 months Thailand. Might actually keep everything fresh

[gentlemanjackdarby]

2 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

Burma - no expats there.  Laos and Cambodia - no infrastructure = no expats there.  Vietnam - no retirement visa.  Malaysia Visa too expensive - 10 times Thailand.  Any others you want me to explain?

I wasn't speaking solely of expats or those on retirement extensions

 

And it would seem to me that for countries with fewer visitors, both expats and tourists, it would be much more likely for their IOs to hassle them, if that was their intention, since there are fewer of them or, to put it another way,  less visitors = more (unwanted) attention.

 

I was speaking of visas in general since TV seems to be flooded with posts and replies of folks, a lot of whom are indeed 'tourists' trying to stay long-term but also quite a few who seem to be genuine tourists returning frequently who are having problems, indicating that TI is seemingly having problems with the 'simple rules'

 

'JackThompson' has done an admirable job of laying out the 'whys and wherefores', bless him, so I don't need to get into that

 

As for the Malaysia (retirement) visa being 'too expensive', that's a matter of perspective (or should I say financial wherewithal) - not too expensive FOR ME; Malaysia seems to spell out very well what is required for a retirement visa and folks who have commented on their experience getting one haven't 'complained' about anything other than it taking longer than they thought it should

 

Vietnam seems to have quite a few 'retirees', albeit they seem to be staying on multi-entry tourists visas and, at present, VI seems to not care - at the end of the day, they're staying; as well, there don't seem to be many reports about folks having trouble entering the country

 

I also think there's a lot of folks living in Cambodia who'd disagree that there are no expats in Cambodia and even with Cambodia's recent 'tightening' of visa requirements, no one is complaining much and those who wish to stay long-term seem to be able to do so with no problem.

 

And yes, I would like you to explain about the PI, since it's screaming by omission; they've actually made their SRRV less expensive and easier to get in the last few years. As well, the PI is the first choice for less well-heeled folks who want to stay long-term on a TV - three years before a visa run seems damn generous to me and while their have been a VERY few reports of folks being questioned when coming back from a visa run, it's quite likely the whole story wasn't reported in those case.

[marcusarelus]

27 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

Most other countries want to help their own citizens by letting us stay and spend money there.  Thai immigration could not care less about the well-being of Thais - just how much loot they can stuff in their pockets, and how much work they can avoid.

 

Malaysia has other issues besides the higher visa-cost - xenophobia to Westerners and our beliefs being a prime-motivator for making stay there difficult.  It is interesting to visit only, IMO.

 

I would alter "Laos" to "No good visa-options, other than fairly expensive "business visa" via agents.  Vientiane has what you need, for the most part, in terms of housing, food, groceries, etc.  Tuk-Tuk drivers are hell, though.

 

Cambodia - Phnom Penh has everything except a decent train-system, so traffic can be awful.  Great beach-options also.  Generally inexpensive to dirt-cheap, depending on choices.  Food doesn't compare to Thailand, but there are Thai restaurants.  Visas approx $300/yr and you can renew in-country.  And it's a "real" multiple-entry visa sticker if 6-mo or longer is purchased (don't have to buy a full-year at once) - so come and go as you like w/ no "re-entry stamp" scam.  Tons of expats from all over living there - good nightlife.  Very cheap beer, but not tasty like Lao's (though that is available imported).

 

Vietnam - easy "business visa" by agent - approx $300/yr in total - 1-year Tourist Visas if USA-Citizen - 3-mo Tourist Visas for everyone else.  No issues with border-bounces / new visa entries.  I haven't lived there, but others report is is great, with plenty of other expats, and growing fast.

No health care in the above countries.  If sick their citizens go to Thailand or Singapore. 

[marcusarelus]

30 minutes ago, gentlemanjackdarby said:

As for the Malaysia (retirement) visa being 'too expensive', that's a matter of perspective (or should I say financial wherewithal) - not too expensive FOR ME; Malaysia seems to spell out very well what is required for a retirement visa and folks who have commented on their experience getting one haven't 'complained' about anything other than it taking longer than they thought it should

Do you know that shortly you will have to deposit 3 million Thai baht in a Malaysian bank and leave it there?  Also get health insurance?  Currently it's $50,000 USD. 

Edited March 15, 2019 by marcusarelus

[marcusarelus]

28 minutes ago, gentlemanjackdarby said:

And yes, I would like you to explain about the PI, since it's screaming by omission; they've actually made their SRRV less expensive and easier to get in the last few years. As well, the PI is the first choice for less well-heeled folks who want to stay long-term on a TV - three years before a visa run seems damn generous to me and while their have been a VERY few reports of folks being questioned when coming back from a visa run, it's quite likely the whole story wasn't reported in those case.

Pi is not in the same league as Thailand in food, infrastructure and especially health care and security. PI natives jump at the chance to live in Thailand. 

[gentlemanjackdarby]

4 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

Pi is not in the same league as Thailand in food, infrastructure and especially health care and security. PI natives jump at the chance to live in Thailand. 

In my view, that's a generalization and while I don't disagree with it, at the end of the day it comes down to what makes an individual happy

 

There seems to be an awful lot of happy folks who are calling the PI home and even more who seem to be happy with their visits

 

One striking difference, which I guess would function as something of a proxy for the PI vs Thailand, is that there don't seem to be nearly as many bitter and unhappy folks populating the PI boards as there are on this one

 

And I guess, if one is in the unfortunate position of being unable to meet the visa requirements of Thailand (or if they can and don't want to put up with mercurial attitude of Thailand Immigration) and can't (or don't want) to go 'back home', I would think those folks would be thankful to have the PI as an option, especially since the tourist visa and retirement visa options are so generous and it seems that most folks are glad to see tourists and expats.

[marcusarelus]

11 minutes ago, gentlemanjackdarby said:

In my view, that's a generalization and while I don't disagree with it, at the end of the day it comes down to what makes an individual happy

 

There seems to be an awful lot of happy folks who are calling the PI home and even more who seem to be happy with their visits

 

One striking difference, which I guess would function as something of a proxy for the PI vs Thailand, is that there don't seem to be nearly as many bitter and unhappy folks populating the PI boards as there are on this one

 

And I guess, if one is in the unfortunate position of being unable to meet the visa requirements of Thailand (or if they can and don't want to put up with mercurial attitude of Thailand Immigration) and can't (or don't want) to go 'back home', I would think those folks would be thankful to have the PI as an option, especially since the tourist visa and retirement visa options are so generous and it seems that most folks are glad to see tourists and expats.

I have been here 20 years.  What mercurial Thai immigration are you talking about.  This thread is about the income method for the retirement extension as I read it.  So tell me what did Thai immigration change about the income method?

 

And if we want to talk about anecdotal experience I know quite a few Filipino families very unhappy at having to move back to the PI.  They are unhappy because of the giant pay cut and lack of paid health insurance like SS in Thailand.

Edited March 15, 2019 by marcusarelus

[gentlemanjackdarby]

17 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

Do you know that shortly you will have to deposit 3 million Thai baht in a Malaysian bank and leave it there?  Also get health insurance?  Currently it's $50,000 USD. 

I think there might be some confusion on that

 

For those over 50, Malaysia has always required the equivalent of MYR 350,000 (about USD 85,722 or about THB 2,700,00) to be in one's home country bank account when applying for the MM2H.

 

For those over 50, Malaysia has recently required the equivalent of only MYR 150,000 (about USD 36,738 or about THB 1,200,00) to be in a fixed deposit in a Malaysian bank. Not much more than Thailand's option of THB 800,000 (about USD 25,000) and, if one is comfortable keeping that sum outside the comfort and convenience of the U.S., likely not a deal-breaker

 

For those under 50, the amounts are higher, but for as long as I've been considering Malaysia for retirement, those amounts haven't changed

 

The only recent change that would matter to most folks is that for retired folks, the MM2H program was recently changed to require the fixed deposit in addition to meeting the monthly income requirement (MYR 10,000 per month, which is about USD 2,500 or about THB 77,600) where in the past one could qualify with money in the bank at home and monthly income only

 

Health insurance has always been a requirement of the MM2H program - no change there and no problem there since well-regarded insurance companies such as Pacific Cross offer great coverage which, by American standards, is inexpensive