Income Method - are immigration moving the goal posts again

[ThaiBunny]

1 minute ago, SheungWan said:

You can only pay tax when your total income exceeds your personal allowance and that only happens with income from other sources than State Pension. So, in your example, only if your income from other sources >5763 do you pay tax. 

To put it another way, you pay tax if your total income from all sources exceeds the personal allowance.  By itself the state pension, being less than the personal allowance, attracts no tax.  If it is bundled in with other income that in total exceeds the personal allowance then you pay tax.  The state pension is therefore taxable (able to be taxed), neither taxed nor untaxed by itself

[sumrit]

3 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Gross income cannot move above the personal allowance threshold other than by the addition of other income.

Simply NOT true.

 

See post 178.

[scubascuba3]

Gross income cannot move above the personal allowance threshold other than by the addition of other income.

Correct but thats just another way of saying your state pension is less than your personal allowance and what's the point

[BobBKK]

To be honest if you don't have 800k you probably should not be here. Can't blame Thailand for trying to stop people who don't really have the 65k but 'swear' they do to get a letter.

[Jip99]

1 minute ago, zoza said:

Could you PM me your method to gain the Transaction list,

I have contacted TransferWise for advice on several occasions

and although very prompt and business like, I received nothing

that was of any use, and also what Thai Bank do you use...

I have a few months yet but I do want to get it all sorted. Cheers 

 

 

zoza, I will post it here as others may also wish to know...

 

 

Log in to TW.

 

Click on ACTIVITY and then click on an individual transfer

 

Click on VIEW TRANSFER DETAILS

 

 

Click on GET PDF RECEIPT

 

 

That will bring up the complete transfer information.

 

I have been printing off individual PDFs and also printing online Kasikorn bank statement each month.

 

 

Also, all the transfer activity is listed (10 transactions per page that you can take a screen print of). I will also print this list to cover the 12m period up to my extension.

[scubascuba3]

To be honest if you don't have 800k you probably should not be here. Can't blame Thailand for trying to stop people who don't really have the 65k but 'swear' they do to get a letter.

It may not be they don't have 800k but instead they want to do other things with it. Also plenty of Thais living off 10k+ a month

[steve73]

4 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

To be honest if you don't have 800k you probably should not be here. Can't blame Thailand for trying to stop people who don't really have the 65k but 'swear' they do to get a letter.

If this were true, why do they still accept the income letters for all but 4 embassies..?

[SheungWan]

1 minute ago, scubascuba3 said:

3 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

To be honest if you don't have 800k you probably should not be here. Can't blame Thailand for trying to stop people who don't really have the 65k but 'swear' they do to get a letter.

It may not be they don't have 800k but instead they want to do other things with it. Also plenty of Thais living off 10k+ a month

Well in that case that person can use an agent. I know plenty of guys who do and have done for years.

[scubascuba3]

Well in that case that person can use an agent. I know plenty of guys who do and have done for years.

Yes but allegedly there is a crackdown on agents although also allegedly they continue BAU

[sumrit]

13 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

To be honest if you don't have 800k you probably should not be here. Can't blame Thailand for trying to stop people who don't really have the 65k but 'swear' they do to get a letter.

Pretending to have 800k by using an AGENT  and paying tea money when you don't have it have been the most common fiddle for many years. 

 

Immigration have tightened up on both the 65k and 800k options recently.

 

Wait until they ban agents here, like they did in the Philippines, and the s**t will really hit the fan, the complaints here on TV will really hit the roof. ????????

Edited March 16, 2019 by sumrit

[zoza]

15 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

zoza, I will post it here as others may also wish to know...

 

 

Log in to TW.

 

Click on ACTIVITY and then click on an individual transfer

 

Click on VIEW TRANSFER DETAILS

 

 

Click on GET PDF RECEIPT

 

 

That will bring up the complete transfer information.

 

I have been printing off individual PDFs and also printing online Kasikorn bank statement each month.

 

 

Also, all the transfer activity is listed (10 transactions per page that you can take a screen print of). I will also print this list to cover the 12m period up to my extension.

Jip99

it all sounds good but my KK account lists my Transfers as ''dummy branch'' so I am about to open a BB account, when is your system going

to be tested as if it works in Jomtien, I would like to follow your lead

(if you do not mind of course) 

Edited March 16, 2019 by zoza

[Jip99]

2 minutes ago, zoza said:

Jip99

it all sounds good but my KK account lists my Transfers as ''dummy branch'' so I am about to open a BB account, when is your system going

to be tested as if it works in Jomtien, I would like to follow your lead

(if you do not mind of course) 

 

 

So does mine.  If immigration WANT to recognise the receipts they will do. An untrained monkey can see that the DUMMY BRANCH receipts tie up with the TW PDF's.

 

 

In fairness the IO in Buriram said "no problem" when I showed him.  Let's see if he says "no problem" in May when I go to do my extension!  ????

 

 

I am not changing my banking for the sake of these changes.

[scubascuba3]

 
Wait until they ban agents here, like they did in the Philippines, and the s**t will really hit the fan, the complaints here on TV will really hit the roof. [emoji16][emoji16]

and from the wives, children and girlfriends who are left destitute

[sumrit]

Just now, scubascuba3 said:

and from the wives, children and girlfriends who are left destitute

 

They won't be for the expats that are here legally.

[steve73]

21 minutes ago, zoza said:

Jip99

it all sounds good but my KK account lists my Transfers as ''dummy branch'' so I am about to open a BB account, when is your system going

to be tested as if it works in Jomtien, I would like to follow your lead

(if you do not mind of course) 

I'm in the process of making my first TW transfer to my Kasikornbank specifically requesting that they route the funds via their KK local banking partner.

 

Previous transfers that have just randomly arrived via the KK partner have always been coded as international, so I'm assuming (perhaps niiavely) that future ones that have been requested as such will continue to do so.  Transfer via BBK or TMB have always been coded as "dummy branch".

 

I set up the transfer Thursday and made the e-mail request (to [email protected]) once I had the reference number, although they still hadn't confirmed back to me when I sent the GBP funds on Friday.  Funds received and payment to my Thai bank promised for Monday.  I have just now heard back that they will TRY TO route my funds as requested.

 

I'll let you know the outcome on Monday...  

Edited March 16, 2019 by steve73

[ThaiBunny]

23 minutes ago, steve73 said:

If this were true, why do they still accept the income letters for all but 4 embassies..?

Because those Embassies say that they are doing what TI want ie. verifying the income. The Anglophone embassies know that they cannot verify the income and have said so.  TI don't care who verifies the income, they just want a letter saying it's been done.  Citizens of those four countries now need their Thai bank to "verify their income" by writing a letter verifying that they are receiving a regular amount from abroad each month.  Whether it's actually income or a drawdown of capital, or a loan, or whatever, the Thais don't want to know

[BobBKK]

20 minutes ago, sumrit said:

Pretending to have 800k by using an AGENT  and paying tea money when you don't have it have been the most common fiddle for many years. 

 

Immigration have tightened up on both the 65k and 800k options recently.

 

Wait until they ban agents here, like they did in the Philippines, and the s**t will really hit the fan, the complaints here on TV will really hit the roof. ????????

Never heard of the 'agent' scam. I have 800k in Bangkok Bank for 10 years and just leave it there as a 'sunk cost'. I know of many Americans who did NOT have the 65k and laughed at the system that allowed them to 'swear' they had it - that's all I'm sayin'.

[sumrit]

On 3/16/2019 at 11:34 AM, BobBKK said:

Never heard of the 'agent' scam.

You've been reading and contributing to this forum for a long time. And you're trying to say that you've never seen a post on here about using an agent to get around the lack of funds in the bank??????????????????

 

 

[steve73]

5 minutes ago, ThaiBunny said:

Because those Embassies say that they are doing what TI want ie. verifying the income. The Anglophone embassies know that they cannot verify the income and have said so.  TI don't care who verifies the income, they just want a letter saying it's been done.  Citizens of those four countries now need their Thai bank to "verify their income" by writing a letter verifying that they are receiving a regular amount from abroad each month.  Whether it's actually income or a drawdown of capital, or a loan, or whatever, the Thais don't want to know

This is exactly my point.. Just because you say you have 65k of income (and your embassy confirms it), and TI accepts their letter, doesn't mean you actually have to spend it (or ANY of it) in Thailand.  T/I is being inconsistent in their requirements. 

[scubascuba3]

I'm in the process of making my first TW transfer to my Kasikornbank specifically requesting that they route the funds via their KK local banking partner.
 
Previous transfers that have just randomly arrived via the KK partner have always been coded as international, so I'm assuming (perhaps niiavely) that future ones that have been requested as such will continue to do so.  Transfer via BBK or TMB have always been coded as "dummy branch".
 
I set up the transfer Thursday and made the e-mail request (to [email protected]) once I had the reference number, although they still hadn't confirmed back to me when I sent the GBP funds on Friday.  Funds received and payment to my Thai bank promised for Monday.  I have just now heard back that they will TRY TO route my funds as requested.
 
I'll let you know the outcome on Monday...  

Interested to hear how you get on. I called them and had email correspondence but i wasn't 100% confident they understood the issue. They said my default would be Kasikorn but their email responses were ambiguous so i gave up. Worth sending small amounts for testing

[steve73]

14 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

26 minutes ago, steve73 said:

 

Interested to hear how you get on. I called them and had email correspondence but i wasn't 100% confident they understood the issue. They said my default would be Kasikorn but their email responses were ambiguous so i gave up. Worth sending small amounts for testing

I've sent TW some quite detailed e-mails (as is my way) explaining WHY it's important to many Thai based customers that the funds are coded as international, and also advised them of the experience of many here that if it goes via the same TW local banking partner as the recipient account, then it has always (so far??) been coded as international.

 

Their response was that if we advise them by giving the transfer reference number, they can intercept the automatic sending process and they will if possible manually route that transfer via their appropriate local bank.

 

(Quite why they cannot set up their system to automatically recognize the recipient account, and route accordingly I don't know - perhaps they preferentially route via their cheapest option.  As long as this manual intervention works if you need to, and doesn't result in them increasing their fees, then I'm happy.) 

 

edit..

If this sytsem works OK for each transfer, then perhaps it would also allow the recipient bank to issue a FET if sending a larger quantity of money to buy a condo. (I think there could be real bargains coming up over the next few months/years).

Edited March 16, 2019 by steve73

[sumrit]

23 minutes ago, ThaiBunny said:

Whether it's actually income or a drawdown of capital, or a loan, or whatever, the Thais don't want to know

That is until they suspect there might be a fiddle, such as using the same 65k baht and simply sending it round every month, then they will ask to see the proof of where that foreign income originates.

[sumrit]

4 minutes ago, steve73 said:

Quite why they cannot set up their system to automatically recognize the recipient account, and route accordingly I don't know - perhaps they preferentially route via their cheapest option.  As long as this manual intervention works if you need to, and doesn't result in them increasing their fees, then I'm happy. 

TW told me the manual email/phone call request was a temporary system we can use until a more permanent automatic solution could be set up. (with a phone call being the quicker option, this was from their UK office)

 

I personally think we will end up with an extra "special instructions" box added to the current transfer application page where we can input our preferred Thai banking partner route.

 

Possibly, the more we 'interrupt their normal daily work flow with email/phone call requests' the quicker they might find a permanent solution.

[scubascuba3]

I've sent TW some quite detailed e-mails (as is my way) explaining WHY it's important to many Thai based customers that the funds are coded as international, and also advised them of the experience of many here that if it goes via the same TW local banking partner as the recipient account, then it has always (so far??) been coded as international.
 
Their response was that if we advise them by giving the transfer reference number, they can intercept the automatic sending process and they will if possible manually route that transfer via their appropriate local bank.
 
(Quite why they cannot set up their system to automatically recognize the recipient account, and route accordingly I don't know - perhaps they preferentially route via their cheapest option.  As long as this manual intervention works if you need to, and doesn't result in them increasing their fees, then I'm happy.) 
 
edit..
If this sytsem works OK for each transfer, then perhaps it would also allow the recipient bank to issue a FET if sending a larger quantity of money to buy a condo. (I think there could be real bargains coming up over the next few months/years).

I'm just skeptical all staff we deal with understand the issue. After a phone call and 2 emails i was still left with an ambiguous response from them so i decided to bin that particular FX. She said a couple times my Kasikorn account is now set as default, but it wasn't clear whether she set Kasikorn as local partner default. I wouldn't risk a big transfer yet

[JimGant]

54 minutes ago, sumrit said:

That is until they suspect there might be a fiddle, such as using the same 65k baht and simply sending it round every month, then they will ask to see the proof of where that foreign income originates.

Where it originates, and what is its original source, are two different things. Thaibunny is right-on when he says the Thais don't care (or at least they shouldn't) if it's income, or proceeds from the sale of your home, or a loan from Aunt Agnes -- or whatever. They're interested in cash flow -- but, yes, cash flow that originates in farangland. And the fact that you can repeat this cash flow for 12 months -- says a lot more about your continuing financial ability than, say, a guaranteed pension letter from the Embassy of Venezuela. But even a legitimate, guaranteed income proof from a stable country says nothing about the ability of that income to reach the shores of Thailand, especially if you're paying off 4 former wives. Thus, after this test case with the four embassies, I would expect the Thais to then require the other 74 embassies to quit the income letter business, and have their citizens to just "show the money coming to Thailand." Simple, efficient, and much more foolproof as to the supportability of expats in Thailand. And, like Malaysia, I would expect the requirement to keep a fixed amount in a Thai bank account, accessible only for emergencies, like medical. (Go check out how Malaysia deals with expats, if you want a hint of where Thailand is headed).

 

 

[SheungWan]

2 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

2 hours ago, SheungWan said:

Well in that case that person can use an agent. I know plenty of guys who do and have done for years.

Yes but allegedly there is a crackdown on agents although also allegedly they continue BAU

Either choose one of the options on the table or don't!

[MarcIssan]

I bank at Bangkok Bank and have 2 accounts.  One is a US Dollar account and one is Thai Baht.  I started this over 2 years ago when I transferred Thai Baht to my account and was floored over the crappy exchange rate and the fees.  I had no control over the exchange rate and one large transfer cost me over $900 USD and the bank said using 2 accounts would have cost me 500 bt instead.  Now  I send US dollars then convert them to  Baht within Bangkok Bank and get a better rate than posted on their electronic board at the bank.  Plus the fees are less for both the incoming and outgoing wire and I can choose when I exchange dollars to baht based on the posted rates.

[sumrit]

29 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Where it originates, and what is its original source, are two different things. Thaibunny is right-on when he says the Thais don't care (or at least they shouldn't) if it's income, or proceeds from the sale of your home, or a loan from Aunt Agnes -- or whatever. They're interested in cash flow -- but, yes, cash flow that originates in farangland. And the fact that you can repeat this cash flow for 12 months -- says a lot more about your continuing financial ability than, say, a guaranteed pension letter from the Embassy of Venezuela. But even a legitimate, guaranteed income proof from a stable country says nothing about the ability of that income to reach the shores of Thailand, especially if you're paying off 4 former wives. Thus, after this test case with the four embassies, I would expect the Thais to then require the other 74 embassies to quit the income letter business, and have their citizens to just "show the money coming to Thailand." Simple, efficient, and much more foolproof as to the supportability of expats in Thailand. And, like Malaysia, I would expect the requirement to keep a fixed amount in a Thai bank account, accessible only for emergencies, like medical. (Go check out how Malaysia deals with expats, if you want a hint of where Thailand is headed).

 

 

OK, if you want to play on words.

 

Maybe they will ask you to prove where the 65k baht you're sending to Thailand each month actually originates from. Is it earned from a foreign source or is sent back from Thailand and then returned again from the UK, Via Dee Money for example'

 

It's their country, their rules and they can ask for any confirmation they like to ensure the rules are adhered to and are likely to make things as strict as necessary to maintain the levels they require. As an individual you can either comply or leave, they are just going to be looking at numbers and the type of person staying.

 

The numbers of people abusing the system of late appears to have crossed their threshold, hence the recent extension rules changes and restrictions and, I believe, those changes will continue until they believe the numbers are under their control again. 

[icare999]

On 14 March 2019 at 9:16 AM, scubascuba3 said:

On 14 March 2019 at 9:13 AM, freedomnow said:

Why doesn't someone send a text message to BJ in Thai about getting all offices on the same page regarding this ? As much as he is hardline to foreigners, he is also hardline to the slobs in Imm. offices.
I'm not a retiree, just an observation that there appears to be a line open to him and from what I read that particular office is a pure headache on the make.

the muppets there are clearly corrupt with the agencies lining up out back but BJ turns a blind eye, we all know so why doesn't he

youve not been here long i guess 555 common sense logic etc is rare here and even rarer amongst immigration etc 

 

[JackThompson]

4 hours ago, ThaiBunny said:

need their Thai bank to "verify their income" by writing a letter verifying that they are receiving a regular amount from abroad each month.  Whether it's actually income or a drawdown of capital, or a loan, or whatever, the Thais don't want to know

Unfortunately, that is not always true.  Some IOs have been reported asking to see a secondary set of documentation showing the income source - pension statements, etc.  They did this before for those with Embassy-Letters at troublesome immigration offices like Chiang Mai, but the practice may be spreading to other offices, now.

 

1 hour ago, sumrit said:

Maybe they will ask you to prove where the 65k baht you're sending to Thailand each month actually originates from. Is it earned from a foreign source or is sent back from Thailand and then returned again from the UK, Via Dee Money for example'

Those "rotating money" with Dee Money or similar would probably go the extra-step of manufacturing a fake pension-letter.  It isn't as though some pension-company will (or legally could) answer inquiries from an immigration office in a foreign country.

 

1 hour ago, sumrit said:

It's their country, their rules and they can ask for any confirmation they like to ensure the rules are adhered to and are likely to make things as strict as necessary to maintain the levels they require. As an individual you can either comply or leave, they are just going to be looking at numbers and the type of person staying.

They clearly could not give a rat's behind whether anyone "really qualifies" or not - whether for retirement, ED, marriage nor any of the rest.  They only care if they can create a pointless-gauntlet, which verifies nothing useful, but is such a PITA, that a large percentage of applicants will pay them off via agents.

 

1 hour ago, sumrit said:

The numbers of people abusing the system of late appears to have crossed their threshold, hence the recent extension rules changes and restrictions and, I believe, those changes will continue until they believe the numbers are under their control again. 

The changes were designed to increase the percentage of potential "abusers" versus honest-applicants - not the other way around.  Many formerly honest in-person applicants will now join the money-fakers in agent offices. 

 

Thai Immigration is not in the "honesty" business, as is clear by the nature of their rule-changes over time - designed to preserve agent-bypass-angles, increase revenues from agent-fees, and reduce competition to their agent-partners.