Tip vs service fee

[asiaexpat]

All my family except myself are Thai. All of them consider service charge as mandatory tip. If service is bad they refuse to pay it.

[remorhaz]

Its a falang only tax and you're expected to tip *on top of this tax* lest you be maligned as a cheap charlie.  You have it and they want it so whats the problem?  Come to China where tipping is not expected.  

[55Jay]

4 hours ago, Cats4ever said:

Tipping is an American disease that has spread. When I first came to Thai in the early 70's, the guides all made a point of stating that tipping was not required. It has spread unfortunately, back in Oz also. I like to tip people who have gone over and above only.

 

Quote

The practice of tipping began in Tudor England. "By the 17th century, it was expected that overnight guests to private homes would provide sums of money, known as vails, to the host's servants. Soon afterwards, customers began tipping in London coffeehouses and other commercial establishments".

 

Quote

Tipping started among European aristocrats in the 17th century. Rich Americans adopted the practice in the mid-1800s, and it spread throughout the country after the Civil War.

 

[Skeptic7]

I don't care where it goes. If there is a surcharge added...THAT is the tip. I do not leave anything further. Of course the money should go to the entire service staff, including the kitchen...but if it doesn't, that is not our problem. If the "boss" doesn't care about his/her hard working employees...then why should we? Most places with such service charges are already incredibly overpriced as it it...even before the service charge. 

 

The money should go to the service staff, but if not, that is an issue for the "boss"...NOT us! 

[Skeptic7]

5 hours ago, suzannegoh said:

"thinking of it as a tip for service" goes to the heart of the problem.  If there's a service charge then almost definitely the customer won't leave a tip, so if the owner doesn't give the service charge money to the staff (as is often the case in Thailand) then the staff is getting shafted out of a tip.

By the OWNER...not the customer. The name itself is a "SERVICE CHARGE". I never leave anything extra when there is already a built in "tip". Just another way to rip off the employees and laying the blame on the customer (usually the foreigners), instead of where it squarely belongs...on the owner. Probably, most customers (tourists) feel guilty and do it. I don't.

Edited March 18, 2019 by Skeptic7

[suzannegoh]

2 minutes ago, Skeptic7 said:

By the OWNER...not the customer. The name itself is a "SERVICE CHARGE". I never leave anything extra when there is already a built in "tip". Just another way to rip off the employees and laying the blame on the customer (usually the foreigners), instead of where it squarely belongs...on the owner. Probably, most customers (tourists) feel guilty and do it. I don't.

It doesn't matter who is shafting the staff.   Surely there must be some limit on how much dishonesty and mistreatment of staff you're willing to overlook rather than taking your business elsewhere.

[Skeptic7]

2 minutes ago, suzannegoh said:

It doesn't matter who is shafting the staff.   Surely there must be some limit on how much dishonesty and mistreatment of staff you're willing to overlook rather than taking your business elsewhere.

I rarely dine at the already overpriced places that include such a charge and always leave a generous tip at places that don't include such a charge. If they include a service charge...then that is the tip. End of story.

 

I don't know where the money is going...nor do you. It is usually labeled as a "service charge" and it's assumed (in the civilized world) that it is going to the service staff...including the kitchen. Regardless where it goes...NOT my/our problem! End of story.

 

 

[jackdd]

2 hours ago, jvs said:

That is why i kind of like service charge charged by bigger hotels and restaurants.It is equally divided so also the staff who does not deal directly with customers gets a share.Gardeners,parking attendents and dishwashers etc.

I would like if the businesses just paid proper wages to their employees and prices shown anywhere are the final prices. No need for the 10% service charge game to make it more complicated.

[suzannegoh]

10 minutes ago, Skeptic7 said:

I rarely dine at the already overpriced places that include such a charge and always leave a generous tip at places that don't include such a charge. If they include a service charge...then that is the tip. End of story.

 

I don't know where the money is going...nor do you. It is usually labeled as a "service charge" and it's assumed (in the civilized world) that it is going to the service staff...including the kitchen. Regardless where it goes...NOT my/our problem! End of story.

 

 

It’s fine it you don’t care where the “service charge” money goes.  It’s also fine if you don’t care about the working conditions at the companies that you buy products from.  After all, you can’t save the world.  But the subject of this thread is “where does the Service Charge money go?”.

[NoshowJones]

21 hours ago, 4675636b596f75 said:

It's a hidden tax on your food.  It's not ethical.  Did the "boss" provide a service?

Yes, there is the small print, the owner/boss is hoping you will not notice it, that is how it is in small print.

[Jaxxper]

Too difficult to sort out !

My rule now is that if there is a service charge entry on the bill, then sorry no tip. If staff start leaving their employer because of no tips then that's the establishments fault. In bars/local restaurants I always leave a tip because many of the staff in those places rely on the customer voluntary contribution to make ends meet.

[NoshowJones]

19 hours ago, scorecard said:

I've heard of customers, Thai and farang, here and in other countries who scrub out the service fee and pay only the actual published cost of the food and drink.

 

I've been at the table when a Thai wealthy businessman did this for the already printed credit card bill, he scrubbed it all out and told the cashier girl to print it again without any service charges.  Whilst the cashier and manager were trying to figure out how to do the cc slip again with no service charge the businessman quietly and quickly gave every waiter a personal tip in their pocket of 100Baht. 

 

 

I'm going to give that a try, but only at a restaurant I am not going back to for

obvious reasons. I hate these cheats.

[NoshowJones]

8 hours ago, reargunnerph3 said:

if a Service Charge is applied to the bill then no extra tip is required. Service Charge is the tip.

Yes, as long as you are not going back to that restaurant.

[NoshowJones]

9 hours ago, suzannegoh said:

There's a highend veg restaurant in a touristy part of Chiang Mai that is upfront about the money going to the boss. They put a sign at the tables saying that the Service Charge is not a tip and that if you want to tip the staff you must leave money in addition to the 10% SC and 7% VAT.

How does he/she manage to stay in business?

[jvs]

37 minutes ago, jackdd said:

I would like if the businesses just paid proper wages to their employees and prices shown anywhere are the final prices. No need for the 10% service charge game to make it more complicated.

That is one way of looking at it,when i eat at a place where they charge service tax i dont tip.

[suzannegoh]

14 minutes ago, possum1931 said:

How does he/she manage to stay in business?

By being in a good looking building in an area that has a steady flow of tourists.  People do complain about it on TripAdvisor though.

Edited March 18, 2019 by suzannegoh

[NoshowJones]

2 hours ago, remorhaz said:

Its a falang only tax and you're expected to tip *on top of this tax* lest you be maligned as a cheap charlie.  You have it and they want it so whats the problem?  Come to China where tipping is not expected.  

I don't care what is or what is not expected anywhere, I do things my way, within reason of course.

[scorecard]

40 minutes ago, possum1931 said:

I'm going to give that a try, but only at a restaurant I am not going back to for

obvious reasons. I hate these cheats.

So you think it would be dangerous to go back to a restaurant where you have given a personal tip to the waiters?

 

Please share why...

 

[myshem]

Easy ! Just don't eat where there is a service charge !

[lkn]

19 hours ago, 55Jay said:

Quote

Tipping started among European aristocrats in the 17th century. Rich Americans adopted the practice in the mid-1800s, and it spread throughout the country after the Civil War.

 

It’s associated with the U.S. because over there it is also expected to give a tip to taxi drivers, hairdressers, housekeeping, bartenders, etc. due to the low wages.

 

In that light, it makes sense to introduce a service charge as a way for the establishment to take care of their staff without being seen as uncompetitive (because higher wages → higher prices).

 

Ideally of course they would increase the wages across the board, but that would require federally mandated minimum wages or strong unions, things that exist in large parts of Europe, making tipping there only something you do if you feel the service was particularly good, or is just a generous person, but omitting a tip in Europe should not upset the staff (as it can justifiably do in the U.S.).

 

Service charge outside of the U.S. does seem a little bit scammy, and certainly also leaving out the VAT, as I have also started to notice here in Thailand (mainly on upscale restaurants).

[55Jay]

44 minutes ago, lkn said:

It’s associated with the U.S. because over there it is also expected to give a tip to taxi drivers, hairdressers, housekeeping, bartenders, etc. due to the low wages.

 

In that light, it makes sense to introduce a service charge as a way for the establishment to take care of their staff without being seen as uncompetitive (because higher wages → higher prices).

 

Ideally of course they would increase the wages across the board, but that would require federally mandated minimum wages or strong unions, things that exist in large parts of Europe, making tipping there only something you do if you feel the service was particularly good, or is just a generous person, but omitting a tip in Europe should not upset the staff (as it can justifiably do in the U.S.).

 

Service charge outside of the U.S. does seem a little bit scammy, and certainly also leaving out the VAT, as I have also started to notice here in Thailand (mainly on upscale restaurants).

The Yanks had a habit of taking a crude but good English practice or product, and improving on it.  But I agree, the Fat Cat Englishman's elitist tipping disease has gotten way out of hand, like India took a perfectly good thing and screwed it up, the ungrateful savages. 

 

Last time I was in Murica, tipping angry artists and surly buskers in the park had morphed into a guilt trip with a demand for a specific, "suggested" amount scrawled on their cardboard signs.  You don't have to tip, but you do, and if you do, it better be $20, or else.... 

[Speedhump]

On 3/18/2019 at 10:36 AM, kenk24 said:

have you ever been a business owner.... he rented the premises, bought all the provisions necessary, buys the food, supervises the prep, likely is the first one in and last to leave at night... etc etc etc...

 

It should not be hidden but usually is listed on the menu... 

 

Ethics? up for debate. 

So pay a service charge in Tesco Lotus or Home Pro on top of the cost of your purchases. After all, people have to stick the shelves, trail you around the store calling sawadee khaaa... and so on. Jesus.... ????

[1FinickyOne]

36 minutes ago, Speedhump said:

So pay a service charge in Tesco Lotus or Home Pro on top of the cost of your purchases. After all, people have to stick the shelves, trail you around the store calling sawadee khaaa... and so on. Jesus.... ????

The conversation was about restaurants... not places like home pro and Tesco - where tipping is optional... 

[Speedhump]

1 minute ago, kenk24 said:

The conversation was about restaurants... not places like home pro and Tesco - where tipping is optional... 

You stated business owners, not just restaurateurs. Why should all business owners not be allowed to charge you for the staff they employ and put the money in their own pocket? There's no reason that restaurants should be the only businesses to have this luxury. Alternatively, restaurant owners should only make a service charge if it's to reward the service. Either one or the other. 

[1FinickyOne]

3 minutes ago, Speedhump said:

You stated business owners, not just restaurateurs. Why should all business owners not be allowed to charge you for the staff they employ and put the money in their own pocket? There's no reason that restaurants should be the only businesses to have this luxury. Alternatively, restaurant owners should only make a service charge if it's to reward the service. Either one or the other. 

It seems like a 10% service fee has become pretty standard in family restaurants, 

 

The above is from the original OP... 

 

business owners should do as they like in their own business... if you are the only shoe store in town that charges a 10% service charge,  you likely won't have many customers... 

[USNret]

On 3/18/2019 at 10:47 AM, suzannegoh said:

If there's a service charge then almost definitely the customer won't leave a tip, so if the owner doesn't give the service charge money to the staff (as is often the case in Thailand) then the staff is getting shafted out of a tip.

This is exactly why I asked the question.  It's crummy if the boss keeps the money, but I don't want to screw over the employee.