May's Brexit deal in chaos as Speaker sparks 'constitutional crisis'

[david555]

1 minute ago, Spidey said:

I'm pretty sure that they would consider a second referendum, if it were May's deal/ remain, a solid reason, providing MPs agreed to be bound by the result.

Whatever is solid , not daydream wishful thinking , announcing G.E. would also be a reason ,but would not solve much , but there the main reason would be courtesy for a nation whiteout a government ...????

[Spidey]

2 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The question needs to be asked, and answered. 

 

Brexit, the mess it is, the damage it has done to British politics and the international reputation of the UK. 

 

cui bono?

 

Would have been easier to answer if you'd asked the question in English.

 

Who benefits?

 

Depends on the final outcome.

 

May's deal - the Tory party as a whole.

 

Remain - Just about everyone in the UK.

 

No deal Brexit - very few but it's rumoured that Moggy's business interests are set to make a killing.

[jpinx]

The reason referendums default to "Advisory" is because a result favouring actions contrary to MP's wishes is seen as a tripwire for the whole system of confrontational politics which can not resolve the big issues.

[StreetCowboy]

A lot of the Brexiteers seem to show a distrust of the government at Westminster.  Who will govern us post_Brexit?  Will that be the same, or better, or worse?

 

I don't think passive-aggressive resentment is a good basis for government, even if it reflects the opinions of the majority.

[Spidey]

2 minutes ago, StreetCowboy said:

A lot of the Brexiteers seem to show a distrust of the government at Westminster.  Who will govern us post_Brexit?  Will that be the same, or better, or worse?

 

I don't think passive-aggressive resentment is a good basis for government, even if it reflects the opinions of the majority.

Brexiteers are planning to vote for UKIP, led by the redoubtable Tommy Islam.

[StreetCowboy]

Just now, Spidey said:

Brexiteers are planning to vote for UKIP, led by the redoubtable Tommy Islam.

Has he grown a ridiculous moustache yet?

[Spidey]

Just now, StreetCowboy said:

Has he grown a ridiculous moustache yet?

What? Like Theresa May's?

[jpinx]

1 minute ago, StreetCowboy said:

A lot of the Brexiteers seem to show a distrust of the government at Westminster.  Who will govern us post_Brexit?  Will that be the same, or better, or worse?

 

I don't think passive-aggressive resentment is a good basis for government, even if it reflects the opinions of the majority.

Post- brexit will come a general election, without May's input, and subsequent discussions on trade under WTO rules.  Scotland might be dragged into another version of membership of the EU outside the UK -- but it'll take some fancy foot work to make that happen ???? 

[sidgy]

OK. I'll answer your question in full. A second referendum, would advise parliament whether the British public want to leave under May's deal or revoke article 50. They could then act accordingly.
 
If the result was to revoke Article 50, MPs would have the excuse to vote as they have always wanted to with less fear of losing their seats than at present. If the vote was to accept May's deal, it would give MPs the excuse to blame the Great British Public for the debacle when it all goes horribly wrong.
 
Now answer the question that you originally replied to. Why is a second referendum so wrong but repeatedly putting May's deal to parliament, despite 2 heavy defeats, OK?
 

So the second referendum you want, will be giving the option of revoking Article 50 (remaining) or accepting May’s deal (basically remaining) with no option of voting for leaving with No Deal ( the winning vote on the original referendum)?


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[Baerboxer]

15 minutes ago, jpinx said:

The reason referendums default to "Advisory" is because a result favouring actions contrary to MP's wishes is seen as a tripwire for the whole system of confrontational politics which can not resolve the big issues.

 

Absolute nonsense. If you want to comment on why referendums are advisory, as the law enacting them states they are, so nothing to do with defaulting, then at least do some research before posting incorrect nonsense.

[Baerboxer]

2 minutes ago, sidgy said:

So the second referendum you want, will be giving the option of revoking Article 50 (remaining) or accepting May’s deal (basically remaining) with no option of voting for leaving with No Deal ( the winning vote on the original referendum)?


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You are making things up. The 2016 referendum was a straight leave or remain. No questions about how leaving might look, deal or no deal. It advised parliament that a small majority who voted wanted to leave. That should have galvanized the government and parliament into exploring all the leave options, debating those options and then voting on the option that was in the country's best interests. And that includes revoking Article 50 if it became clear that all the leaving options weren't in the country's best interests. 

 

But as we've seen parliament, the government, the opposition are all to weak and self interested to have done this properly.

[jpinx]

4 minutes ago, sidgy said:

So the second referendum you want, will be giving the option of revoking Article 50 (remaining) or accepting May’s deal (basically remaining) with no option of voting for leaving with No Deal ( the winning vote on the original referendum)?


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Another "Yes/No" referendum would make more sense, if a 2nd referendum has any sanity at all...

[david555]

Just now on Sky a press conference from E.U.  it seems T.M. go ask a short as well a long extension ….. can it be more crazy …? Same reply , maybe , but for what …? Barnier replied that the E.U does not want to stand a new in few weeks / months facing  with just same U.K. problem...

Please does this P.M has no shame ….or whatever that behavior can be called …..Brits is it not time to take Cromwell out the grave ? ...

[jpinx]

8 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Absolute nonsense. If you want to comment on why referendums are advisory, as the law enacting them states they are, so nothing to do with defaulting, then at least do some research before posting incorrect nonsense.

You miss the point, but it's ok.  We agree that the enabling act is the place where parliament votes on the enforcement of the result of the referendum. 

[nauseus]

38 minutes ago, StreetCowboy said:

When you offer the unobtainable to the disenfranchised, it is scarcely surprising that they become more truculent when they learn they cannot have it.

 

Sadly, the thrawn and truculent are the least likely to learn from their mistakes, and Brexit would take us no further forward in that regard.

It's Brexit not bloody Star Wars!

[Baerboxer]

1 hour ago, jpinx said:

Referendums seem to default to "advisory" unless the enabling act of parliament says otherwise.  The whole concept of referendums is an anachronism in the UK's government system.  Switzerland almost always use referendums and the people are happy to do so much voting, but UK folks are far too argumentative !!  ????

 

 

Referendums can have no legal effect in the British constitution and its representative democracy. They can only be advisory. 

May tried to do claim she could use the Royal Prerogative to implement the result of the referendum by executive decisions i.e. by the cabinet agreeing to a deal without regard to parliament. She lost, having pushed it all the way to the Supreme Court.

 

The UK Constitutional Law Association has a large number of papers on this if you're interested.

[jpinx]

7 minutes ago, david555 said:

Just now on Sky a press conference from E.U.  it seems T.M. go ask a short as well a long extension ….. can it be more crazy …? Same reply , maybe , but for what …? Barnier replied that the E.U does not want to stand a new in few weeks / months facing  with just same U.K. problem...

Please does this P.M has no shame ….or whatever that behavior can be called …..Brits is it not time to take Cromwell out the grave ? ...

A long extension might be overtaken by a General Election May'22, in which case Mrs May will not be in the picture...

[nauseus]

6 minutes ago, david555 said:

Just now on Sky a press conference from E.U.  it seems T.M. go ask a short as well a long extension ….. can it be more crazy …? Same reply , maybe , but for what …? Barnier replied that the E.U does not want to stand a new in few weeks / months facing  with just same U.K. problem...

Please does this P.M has no shame ….or whatever that behavior can be called …..Brits is it not time to take Cromwell out the grave ? ...

Well you could but he has a headache!

[david555]

Just now, jpinx said:

A long extension might be overtaken by a General Election, in which case Mrs May will not be in the picture...

At least 1 relief ...

[david555]

1 minute ago, nauseus said:

Well you could but he has a headache!

Then look for Merlin … chance wizards live forever ...

[jpinx]

4 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Referendums can have no legal effect in the British constitution and its representative democracy. They can only be advisory. 

May tried to do claim she could use the Royal Prerogative to implement the result of the referendum by executive decisions i.e. by the cabinet agreeing to a deal without regard to parliament. She lost, having pushed it all the way to the Supreme Court.

 

The UK Constitutional Law Association has a large number of papers on this if you're interested.

Indeed - I'd forgotten that supreme court fiasco!  ????  I'm not sufficiently interested in becoming a barrack-room constitutional lawyer to wade through it all, but UK certainly seems to have left too many possibilities for differing interpretations, each one requiring a supreme court hearing to be resolved.

 

What's the difference between the democratic will of a general election and the democratic will of a referendum?  ????

 

[tebee]

29 minutes ago, sidgy said:

...... with no option of voting for leaving with No Deal ( the winning vote on the original referendum)?


 

Oh no it wasn't

[jpinx]

2 minutes ago, tebee said:

Oh no it wasn't

Oh yes it was !!  Anyone who added their own conditions to their "leave" vote had not understood the question.  ????

[Bang Bang]

A weird time warp just across from my toilet dropped a copy of the Guardian from 2083:

 

Dateline March 17, 2083:

Mohammad Bercow, Speaker of the House, appropriately enough a great-grandson of John Bercow, Speaker at the time of the original EU referendum, has ruled that since the last person known to have voted leave in the 2016 referendum having passed away in an elder care home in Sheffield this past Sunday, the Leave result can be vacated through a voice vote as proposed by Prime Minister Raiza Noor Johnson of the ruling Islamic Britain party.

[vinny41]

Sir John Curtice Demolishes Remain Voodoo Polling

 

 

[nontabury]

3 hours ago, StreetCowboy said:

A lot of the Brexiteers seem to show a distrust of the government at Westminster.  Who will govern us post_Brexit?  Will that be the same, or better, or worse?

 

I don't think passive-aggressive resentment is a good basis for government, even if it reflects the opinions of the majority.

 

 Very true, but that’s what happens when you ignore the Democratic decision of the people.

 

 

[nontabury]

3 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Referendums can have no legal effect in the British constitution and its representative democracy. They can only be advisory. 

May tried to do claim she could use the Royal Prerogative to implement the result of the referendum by executive decisions i.e. by the cabinet agreeing to a deal without regard to parliament. She lost, having pushed it all the way to the Supreme Court.

 

The UK Constitutional Law Association has a large number of papers on this if you're interested.

You seem to forget, that since the people’s referendum,we have had a General Election. At that G.E. 80% of the votes cast, were for parties who promised to implement the result of that referendum.

 But as we are seeing daily, the elected representatives who stood on their respective manifestos are shown to be deceivers and liers. 

 

 

[bomber]

22 minutes ago, nontabury said:

 

 Very true, but that’s what happens when you ignore the Democratic decision of the people.

 

 

by countries that make up the UK    2 leave/2 remain

[david555]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/19/brexit-uk-to-pay-health-costs-of-retired-britons-in-eu-if-no-deal-agreed

No-deal Brexit: UK to pay some health costs of retired Britons in EU

Costs for 180,000 pensioners in EU countries will be paid for 12months, minister says

 

(So after 12 months ..what then … return U.K. for treatment or pay themselves ?? )

[david555]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/mar/19/brexit-latest-news-bercow-speaker-theresa-may-to-chair-cabinet-as-government-responds-to-bercow-ruling-against-repeat-vote-on-deal-politics-live?page=with:block-5c911943e4b0e8eadf78066d#block-5c911943e4b0e8eadf78066d

Michel Barnier, the EU’s chief Brexit negotiator, has warned Theresa May that she should not take it for granted that the EU will agree to an article 50 extension. At a press conference in Brussels, he said that delaying Brexit could bring economic and political costs, that the EU would want reasons for an extension, and that he would only favour agreeing a long extension in return for the UK offering “something new”. See 5.28pm.