Do Residents Of Thailand Need To Declare All Their Assets?

[david555]

56 minutes ago, Naam said:

says who?

This...in yellow marked 

Thai Bank regulation BOT.pdf

[gamb00ler]

11 hours ago, ukrules said:

There are 2 countries in the world who do what the US does.

 

The US and Eritrea, that's literally it in the whole world for taxing worldwide income regardless of where you live.

 

The US does allow a generous foreign earned income exclusion of $105,900 for 2019.  You will only pay tax on earned income exceeding that exclusion.  But if self-employed you would still pay FICA on your income.  See IRS Pub 54 for details.

[khunPer]

3 hours ago, Naam said:

nice theory but i'm afraid to implement in practice would be rather difficult.

Not really, it works for my home country, so not only theory, I talk from (positive) experience with advanced approval from the tax authorities, and as specified in the double taxation agreement. The 15% works for dividend from my US-stocks...????

[Naam]

40 minutes ago, gamb00ler said:

The US does allow a generous foreign earned income exclusion of $105,900 for 2019.  You will only pay tax on earned income exceeding that exclusion.  But if self-employed you would still pay FICA on your income.  See IRS Pub 54 for details.

does not apply to investment income!

[Naam]

2 hours ago, david555 said:

This...in yellow marked 

Thai Bank regulation BOT.pdf 75.42 kB · 1 download

and who's following this regulation?

[Naam]

16 minutes ago, khunPer said:

Not really, it works for my home country, so not only theory, I talk from (positive) experience with advanced approval from the tax authorities, and as specified in the double taxation agreement. The 15% works for dividend from my US-stocks...????

good for you. i don't invest in any asset where tax at source is levied.

[Naam]

19 hours ago, DogNo1 said:

I will be transferring 780,000 baht's worth of my retirement income into Thailand each year.  My retirement income is taxable and I pay tax on it in the USA.  The Thai Government requires (but as of now doesn't check closely) that the money that you transfer into the country comes from retirement INCOME, not savings.  Technically, it can't have been made in a previous year so it can't meet that particular Thai tax exemption. It may not be Thai practice to tax foreign-earned income but what is the law?  Two years ago, none of us were worried about paying tax to Japan for our foreign-earned income but now we are.  The new law taxing foreign-earned income was passed in 2017.  The Japanese Financial Times, the Nikei Shimbun and other economic newspapers stated that one objective of the law was to catch wealthy Japanese tax evaders who stashed their money abroad.  As we have seen recently, Thai immigration policy can suddenly change.  So, I assume, can Thai tax law.

it goes without saying that tax laws can be changed. but one has to look at the background to evaluate the probability. and the background is that those with economical and political power are benefitting most of the prevailing practice "no tax on savings".

[david555]

3 hours ago, Naam said:

and who's following this regulation?

Not me for sure , I was only pointing out the rule , but  example think f for any stupid reason you would have a Immigration police visit at house …. as I had  , not for me , but for a search for a Russian lady who had address before me , on my condo, before I took possession for it…., very soon they saw the mistake , but mean time you have a kind of quick look around , probably to see of woman clothes are around (not so ,i live alone ..) , but 1 needed by entering high needed go toilet …., I know the drill …. just checking for lady things …, to assure I live alone I opened my wardrobe …. my safe on sight as always condo owners put it there for some stupid reason , so question came …..something in it? ….i just opened ...only documents bank books and old passports ( I know I could try refuse , but even in western country's this would implicate in a very rough search …) , all clear they stayed friendly 6 present total ...1 came in +1 for toilet …)

 

A few weeks later the Condo Building across Sukhumvit was raided (Plazza condo ) and a Kazakhstan gang for Prostitution was rounded up ….they found their lady prostitution boss apparently ...????

SO MR NAAM just suppose in my safe was 10 000€ a problem "could" raise if they knew that Bot rule , and ….!

Strange question they also had ...if I had cards in the condo (play cards …) , I did not have , innocently some could say yes … as at that time no arrest for those old pensioners happened …..Thailand and his strange stupid sometimes laws ...????

So Mr Naam I just pointed on that rule as I am sure not many knows ,  I accidently found it …. so better keep the cash stash on a good place ..???? to be sure ...not get it confiscated in a stupid way for a reason we dont know ...untill now .

Edited April 10, 2019 by david555

[JimGant]

On 4/8/2019 at 1:57 PM, mp10 said:

question: if I had a foreigner income that I brought into the country do I need to file as PIT even if I spent less than 180 days in the country during that tax year?

Thanks

No, because foreign income is not taxable in Thailand if you're here less than 180 days:

Quote

Taxpayers are classified into “resident” and “non-resident”. “Resident” means any person residing in Thailand for a period or periods aggregating more than 180 days in any tax (calendar) year. A resident of Thailand is liable to pay tax on income from sources in Thailand as well as on the portion of income from foreign sources that is brought into Thailand. A non-resident is, however, subject to tax only on income from sources in Thailand.

 

[JimGant]

On 4/8/2019 at 2:21 PM, khunPer said:

This might be of interest for those that might have legal income in their home country, but taxable abroad due to the 183-day rule and double taxation agreements, but not brought into Thailand before the following year, making the income legally tax free.

An interesting example is what's happening with US IRAs via a certain tax preparer in Bangkok. He maintains that IRAs are, per treaty, exempt from US taxation, if you're a tax resident of Thailand. Thus, he files your 1040, declaring your IRA amount in the AGI section, but then backs same amount out in the "adjustments to income" section. GENIOUS! The full IRA amount is included on the form, thus it completely coincides with the supporting 1099R. No mismatch horn blows. No call for human intervention. Yes, he has to attach a form explaining what he maintains is the treaty exemption; but if anybody at the undermanned IRS ever reads it, or even understands the State Dept legalese language -- it's doubtful. I'm sure the wording is worthy of a Pulitzer (but I've never seen an example).

 

Anyway, now the next clever move (or non move) is: Don't bring that IRA income into Thailand in current tax year (or never, if you want). Thus, per Thai tax guidance, even tho' the tax treaty says Thailand has first tax dibs on these funds, no Thai tax filing for this IRA income is required. So, hey, if you're a Yank, have, say, $250,000 in a conventional (taxable) IRA, then move to Thailand for over 180 days, hire this charlatan to do your taxes, and save about $60,000 in taxes (Married, filing Jointly). Smell somewhat fishy? Yeah. (Full thread on this guy can be found in the Chiang Mai sub forum -- where you'll see many folks have already taken advantage of this guy, with so far, no calls from the IRS).

 

The above example smacks into where the OECD is headed, namely, new model tax treaties that address not only the original concern of elimination of dual taxation -- but elimination of dual "no taxation." Search on it. You'll find that, along with FATCA and CRS, the wave of the future is, you'll be paying taxes to either your mother country, or country of residence, or both.

 

Unless you have a crook tax preparer, for Yanks, you already have rules in place that have you paying taxes to someone, i.e., no "dual no taxation." If a treaty country doesn't want to collect, for whatever reason, you have to declare that income on your US tax return. If the treaty country has first dibs, then, yeah, you still have to file a US tax return, declaring that income, but you get a tax credit for the taxes paid to the treaty country. Thus, no double taxation.

 

Yeah, the future sees taxes wherever you live. Some countries, like Norway, deal with it slightly differently than the US: If you're a tax resident of Thailand, then per treaty, all pension income, private and state, is taxable by Thailand. But, unless you provide a Thai tax return showing you've paid Thai taxes, Norway will continue to tax at source these pensions. Use this scenario with our charlatan Bangkok tax preparer -- without a Thai tax return, no US tax exemption on my IRA withdrawal. And, interestingly, Thai taxes on a $250,000 IRA would be considerably more than the equivalent US tax. So, all this poo poo about Yanks and Eritreans being the only citizens with worldwide taxation doesn't really mean much, particularly if treaty language allows most of my income to be taxed at the relatively low US tax rates, compared to rates charged by, say, socialist European countries -- or maybe even Thailand.

 

But, meanwhile, Yanks back home with large IRAs -- plan on a 180 day vacation to Thailand, to include a visit to a certain tax preparer in Bangkok.

 

 

 

 

[userabcd]

Funny how this OECD group and their employees are making world wide agreements and rules to make almost everyone pay taxes but their own emoluments are paid tax free.

[Naam]

On 4/8/2019 at 7:23 PM, SCOTT FITZGERSLD said:

that is interesting. now all the counried in the world are changing their tax and declaration laws

more interesting is that CRS (Common Reporting Standard) does not require any country to change its tax or declaration laws. and there is no country that does. CRS deals only (as the name says) with reporting.

[Naam]

7 hours ago, JimGant said:

A resident of Thailand is liable to pay tax on income from sources in Thailand as well as on the portion of income from foreign sources that is brought into Thailand.

that is the law but not the practice. since decades, i heard it for the first time in 1978, offshore income is not taxed if not brought into the country the same year it was earned. never mind pensions or social insurance which is not "earned" but protected by double tax agreements. i am talking about "real" money.

[Naam]

On 4/10/2019 at 4:51 PM, david555 said:

So Mr Naam I just pointed on that rule as I am sure not many knows ,  I accidently found it …. so better keep the cash stash on a good place ..

why would i bring foreign currency in cash when it is easily available against Thai Baht?

[david555]

1 minute ago, Naam said:

why would i bring foreign currency in cash when it is easily available against Thai Baht?

A) for any non Naam  reason 

B) save the exchange rates , have the newest printed bills, be sure they are correct ones ….. oh so many reasons not being yours ...

[marcusarelus]

On 4/9/2019 at 9:58 PM, SCOTT FITZGERSLD said:

well, sir, the thing with online money transfers is that they leave a record, and with all the new global tax law coming to our faces faster than Road Runner, maybe you don't want the whole world to know about every money movement you made in the past 25 years.

I believe that is the purpose of all the anti terrorist anti money laundering laws enacted recently.  Of course if you are trying to launder money or fund ISIS or are Chinese then I can see not wanting the government to know where your money goes.  The Chinese pay people to tape money to their legs and run out with it.  Maybe you could try that?  I guess you never pay for anything with a credit card or put money in a bank.  That mattress must get heavy carrying it around. 

Edited April 11, 2019 by marcusarelus

[Naam]

1 minute ago, david555 said:

6 minutes ago, Naam said:

why would i bring foreign currency in cash when it is easily available against Thai Baht?

A) for any non Naam  reason 

B) save the exchange rates , have the newest printed bills, be sure they are correct ones ….. oh so many reasons not being yours ...

correct. but i said "why would eye...?" not "why would anybody...?"

[david555]

8 minutes ago, Naam said:

correct. but i said "why would eye...?" not "why would anybody...?"

That is why I made A) non Naam reason as you (eye) do not see the reason for it , but I like to be sure I don't get fake Euros …, also 1000 000 baht is at staple from approx. 12 cm , same in 100 € bills is 2.3 cm …., you never know if ever Hell breaks loose in this Democratic paradise with coup on expired date...…..I like travel light in such case and …. cash is king in turmoil 

Edited April 11, 2019 by david555

[SCOTT FITZGERSLD]

On 4/10/2019 at 1:39 AM, ukrules said:

There are 2 countries in the world who do what the US does.

 

The US and Eritrea, that's literally it in the whole world for taxing worldwide income regardless of where you live.

 

taxing is one thing. and declaring is another thing.

there are more countries on the world who demand their tax residents to declare

all their assets, worldwide.

japan, as mentioned here, is one of them since 2017.

and more and more countries will do so in the near future.

[ThaiBunny]

Just now, SCOTT FITZGERSLD said:

and more and more countries will do so in the near future.

You're basing that on what, exactly? Your love of conspiracy theories?

[SCOTT FITZGERSLD]

On 4/9/2019 at 6:12 PM, david555 said:

More.....take  attention even that the foreign value on no need to declared cash normally must exchanged in that 365 day frame …… so normally may not keep it in foreign currency longer than  365 days 

I wonder how many of us do that anyway as a safe heaven ...

you can keep foreign currecny in your foreign bank account for as long as you want.

but if you come with CASH, only than you have to exchange to thai baht it within 365 das.

[SCOTT FITZGERSLD]

19 hours ago, JimGant said:

An interesting example is what's happening with US IRAs via a certain tax preparer in Bangkok. He maintains that IRAs are, per treaty, exempt from US taxation, if you're a tax resident of Thailand. Thus, he files your 1040, declaring your IRA amount in the AGI section, but then backs same amount out in the "adjustments to income" section. GENIOUS! The full IRA amount is included on the form, thus it completely coincides with the supporting 1099R. No mismatch horn blows. No call for human intervention. Yes, he has to attach a form explaining what he maintains is the treaty exemption; but if anybody at the undermanned IRS ever reads it, or even understands the State Dept legalese language -- it's doubtful. I'm sure the wording is worthy of a Pulitzer (but I've never seen an example).

 

Anyway, now the next clever move (or non move) is: Don't bring that IRA income into Thailand in current tax year (or never, if you want). Thus, per Thai tax guidance, even tho' the tax treaty says Thailand has first tax dibs on these funds, no Thai tax filing for this IRA income is required. So, hey, if you're a Yank, have, say, $250,000 in a conventional (taxable) IRA, then move to Thailand for over 180 days, hire this charlatan to do your taxes, and save about $60,000 in taxes (Married, filing Jointly). Smell somewhat fishy? Yeah. (Full thread on this guy can be found in the Chiang Mai sub forum -- where you'll see many folks have already taken advantage of this guy, with so far, no calls from the IRS).

 

The above example smacks into where the OECD is headed, namely, new model tax treaties that address not only the original concern of elimination of dual taxation -- but elimination of dual "no taxation." Search on it. You'll find that, along with FATCA and CRS, the wave of the future is, you'll be paying taxes to either your mother country, or country of residence, or both.

 

Unless you have a crook tax preparer, for Yanks, you already have rules in place that have you paying taxes to someone, i.e., no "dual no taxation." If a treaty country doesn't want to collect, for whatever reason, you have to declare that income on your US tax return. If the treaty country has first dibs, then, yeah, you still have to file a US tax return, declaring that income, but you get a tax credit for the taxes paid to the treaty country. Thus, no double taxation.

 

Yeah, the future sees taxes wherever you live. Some countries, like Norway, deal with it slightly differently than the US: If you're a tax resident of Thailand, then per treaty, all pension income, private and state, is taxable by Thailand. But, unless you provide a Thai tax return showing you've paid Thai taxes, Norway will continue to tax at source these pensions. Use this scenario with our charlatan Bangkok tax preparer -- without a Thai tax return, no US tax exemption on my IRA withdrawal. And, interestingly, Thai taxes on a $250,000 IRA would be considerably more than the equivalent US tax. So, all this poo poo about Yanks and Eritreans being the only citizens with worldwide taxation doesn't really mean much, particularly if treaty language allows most of my income to be taxed at the relatively low US tax rates, compared to rates charged by, say, socialist European countries -- or maybe even Thailand.

 

But, meanwhile, Yanks back home with large IRAs -- plan on a 180 day vacation to Thailand, to include a visit to a certain tax preparer in Bangkok.

 

 

 

 

tax treaty does not only mean that you have to pay tax somewhere, but also that you must pay the higher tax in the country where you have to pay tax. for example, if you are a thai tax resident and have to pay 37% tax on your income from a u.s. source, and you were taxed only 20% on that income in the u.s., than you still have to pay an extra 17% on that income in thailand (if brought into thailand in the same year).

[SCOTT FITZGERSLD]

30 minutes ago, ThaiBunny said:

You're basing that on what, exactly? Your love of conspiracy theories?

i am basing it on what i rad in the internet (FATCA, CRS), on my conversations with bankers and accountants, and on my own experience.

please do read some newspapers before commenting on this subject.

[ThaiBunny]

3 minutes ago, SCOTT FITZGERSLD said:

i am basing it on what i rad in the internet (FATCA, CRS), on my conversations with bankers and accountants, and on my own experience.

please do read some newspapers before commenting on this subject.

And your basis for asserting that I don't read newspapers widely is what, exactly?

[SCOTT FITZGERSLD]

16 hours ago, marcusarelus said:

I believe that is the purpose of all the anti terrorist anti money laundering laws enacted recently.  Of course if you are trying to launder money or fund ISIS or are Chinese then I can see not wanting the government to know where your money goes.  The Chinese pay people to tape money to their legs and run out with it.  Maybe you could try that?  I guess you never pay for anything with a credit card or put money in a bank.  That mattress must get heavy carrying it around. 

so anyone who prefer cash is trying to launder money, or supporting ISIS, or "chinese"?

there is no other option, in your world?

and the chinese even "pay for people to tape money to their legs and run out with it"?

 i never tried it but might do so in this coming songkran.

i will tape 10,000 USD to my legs (or do you reccomend ay other currency) and will 

run out with it for 3-4 days all over china town, see how it goes.

sounds like fun.

 

Edited April 12, 2019 by SCOTT FITZGERSLD

[david555]

2 hours ago, SCOTT FITZGERSLD said:

you can keep foreign currecny in your foreign bank account for as long as you want.

but if you come with CASH, only than you have to exchange to thai baht it within 365 das.

yep, they want it under their control radar ... in case of being YOUR cash...

Edited April 12, 2019 by david555

[JimGant]

2 hours ago, SCOTT FITZGERSLD said:

tax treaty does not only mean that you have to pay tax somewhere, but also that you must pay the higher tax in the country where you have to pay tax. for example, if you are a thai tax resident and have to pay 37% tax on your income from a u.s. source, and you were taxed only 20% on that income in the u.s., than you still have to pay an extra 17% on that income in thailand (if brought into thailand in the same year).

Well, yes, for some, like us Yanks, we'll always pay the higher tax amount, since double taxation is avoided via the credit route. So, if my Thai tax is very low, since it's the only income being reported, and thus shows up at the lower tax rate margins, this lower tax will be used as a credit against my higher US taxes -- but total amount paid, small amount to Thailand, larger amount to the US, will still amount to maximum taxes.

 

But, if I'm Norwegian, and I'm now a resident of Thailand, due to frostbite, and can prove I'm a resident of Thailand, plus show a Thai tax return that includes all my Norwegian pension payments -- then, I pay nothing in Norwegian taxes on these pensions. And, if Thai taxes are less than 15% (the Norwegian taxation at source rate), then I'm money ahead by making sure my Norwegian pensions come into Thailand in year paid, thus subject to Thai taxation. An obvious twist to all the other discussions. And, of course, in this example, superior to the credit method used by the US.

 

Quote

Under the tax treaty between Norway and Thailand article 18, pensions are only liable to tax in the recipient's country of residence. If a Norwegian pension is liable to tax in Thailand pursuant to this provision, Norway will exempt the pension from tax. The tax exemption in Norway is however limited to the part of the pension that is taxed in Thailand.

Pursuant to article 23 paragraph 3 litera e in the tax treaty the tax exemption in Norway only applies to the part of the pension that is taxed in Thailand. This provision states that when it follows from the tax rules in Thailand that only the amount that is transferred to Thailand is liable to tax there, the tax exemption in Norway only applies to the part of the income that is taxed in Thailand. According to the information on the website of the Thai tax authorities, persons who are tax resident in Thailand are only liable to tax in Thailand on income from abroad to the extent that the income is actually transferred to Thailand. This has also been confirmed by the Thai Ministry of Finance.

https://www.skatteetaten.no/en/person/taxes/get-the-taxes-right/employment-benefits-and-pensions/pension-and-disability-benefit/resident-abroad/countries/thailand/