Denied entry at Don Meang

[Finlaco]

A friend of mine who has a SETV from the Thai Embassy in  Ho Chi Minh and a return ticket out of Thailand, has been denied entry (been in Thailand too long) and is on his way back to Vietnam. What are his options to come back to Thailand?  Does he need to get a new passport or ...

 

I'd appreciate any kind suggestions

[problemfarang]

did they write anything to his passport?

if not Laos land border could be another way

New passport is also an option i believe

[Peterw42]

I dont think a new passport achieves anything as name, DOB and other details remain the same, enough information to make a match in immigration database. They could even start using facial recognition or old PP number stored in new epassport chip etc.

Maybe some of the history, how many visits over how many years etc, so others can advise.

 

Edited April 10, 2019 by Peterw42

[puukao]

Of course a new passport doesn't hurt.  It might not help, but it certainly won't hurt.  Land crossing makes the most sense, but think of all the money trying new things...... i would be thinking about another country for a year.  do you really want to spend tens of thousands of baht just to enter?

[ubonjoe]

Did he have the equivalent of 20k baht in cash to show?

What is the reasons shown on the denial of entry stamp he got. They are numbers that are in parthenisese on the 3rd line of the stamp normally.

[BritTim]

He will need to enter by land (avoiding the Poipet/Aranayprathet crossing from Cambodia). From Ho Chi Minh City, two possibilities are:

• overland to Koh Kong in Cambodia, entering at Hat Lek (Trad) in Thailand;
• fly to Vientiane and cross the Friendship Bridge to Nong Khai.

After crossing to Nong Khai, you have the option of flying to Bangkok from Udon airport.

 

It might be worth getting a replacement passport at some point, but this will not expunge the record of his denied entry from immigration's system.

[lkv]

3 hours ago, Finlaco said:

 is on his way back to Vietnam

First let's find out what happens in Vietnam.

[JackThompson]

First Note - his Tourist Visa is likely still use-able.  All he has to do is get to a law-abiding entry point - any land-border other than Poipet/Aranyaprathet will work.

 

"Too much time in Thailand" is not a legal reason to deny entry.  If he didn't have the required 20K Baht in cash, then they could have gotten him on a technicality, as this is a rule on the books.  If he did have it and/or they didn't ask to see it, they probably stamped his passport with "doesn't have enough money to support himself," or similar - since they cannot leave evidence of denying-entry for an illegal reason.

 

If Vietnam says he must fly out (may depend on his nationality), hopefully they will allow him to fly to Malaysia or Laos - not only his passport-country.  I would choose Malaysia, since they do not care about denials-of-entry at Bangkok airports.  

[Bohlaan]

I took the bus once from hcmc to pnomh penh,spent a few nights there and then another bus to thailand,nice trip! and peace of mind using land border:)

[riclag]

Not that it makes a difference . How old is he and does he have 20k?

[Thailand Outcast]

6 hours ago, puukao said:

Of course a new passport doesn't hurt.  It might not help, but it certainly won't hurt.  Land crossing makes the most sense, but think of all the money trying new things...... i would be thinking about another country for a year.  do you really want to spend tens of thousands of baht just to enter?

I don't think he would have to vacate for a year, but I agree with your advice, and not just to the OP, but to anyone in a similar circumstance.

 

The time has come to seriously contemplate your Plan B country, and if you haven't chosen an alternative location, best to start exploring. 

[zhangxifu]

Sorry to hear of op's trouble. I'm sure a land border will be a better option.

What I don't understand is that why the long-termers on TR visas don't spend half the time in other countries. Nice condos for sale on Langkawi and Penang. Cambo and Vietnam, a bit more adventurous destinations. Personally, I have almost always stayed here on yearly extensions. Education, children, marriage. Lately on multiple entry visas as it get's boring as hell staying solely in Thailand for years. I am quite happy to travel and see the SEA and even happier to return home to Thailand.

[Penefattore]

Thai Immigration has really gone ape.  If they want to put a limit on the days a tourist can stay in Thailand , they must issue a precise rule , so that people know if they can enter or not.

Being denied entry while having a visa is plain outrageous.

At the moment , they are acting like a restaurant chasing away their best customers , which is idiotic to say the least. All money gifted to Cambodia , Vietnam and Indonesia.

[problemfarang]

18 hours ago, JackThompson said:

"Too much time in Thailand" is not a legal reason to deny entry.  If he didn't have the required 20K Baht in cash, then they could have gotten him on a technicality, as this is a rule on the books.  If he did have it and/or they didn't ask to see it, they probably stamped his passport with "doesn't have enough money to support himself," or similar - since they cannot leave evidence of denying-entry for an illegal reason.

 

 

It is indeed a legal reason to deny entry. He might be working here... or doing another things. IO duty is to protect his/her country against ppl like these. And he has full right to deny a visitor who is keep coming back. Maybe hes working illegally or else. A person who enters a country many times with any kind of tourist visa is suspicious. 20K is nothing with this, Because its for normal tourists. 

Plus if he even thinking to get a new passport... i would say IO was right tbh.

[problemfarang]

25 minutes ago, Penefattore said:

Thai Immigration has really gone ape.  If they want to put a limit on the days a tourist can stay in Thailand , they must issue a precise rule , so that people know if they can enter or not.

Being denied entry while having a visa is plain outrageous.

At the moment , they are acting like a restaurant chasing away their best customers , which is idiotic to say the least. All money gifted to Cambodia , Vietnam and Indonesia.

 

i kind of not agree with you. A person who keep coming to the county with any kind of tourist visa is... not normal. common. He might be working here.. or any other things! IO duty is to protect his/her country. and imagine ppl get a new passport to get into the country... this makes more sense to me why IO denying. 

Plus getting a visa and having a visa means nothing. IO officer at the border has the full right to stop you.

Edited April 11, 2019 by problemfarang

[BritTim]

1 hour ago, problemfarang said:

Plus getting a visa and having a visa means nothing. IO officer at the border has the full right to stop you.

It gets boring having to continually point this out. Under Thai law, immigration officials are only supposed to deny entry according to reasons laid out in Section 12 of the Immigration Act; or according to ministerial/police orders that identify additional reasons for denied entry. The Immigration Act specifically makes clear that only the Minister has discretion to arbitrarily admit or deny entry. This "official has full power" meme is based on people's assumptions of what the law ought to be based on what is common in Western countries. It has nothing to do with Thai law which is what officials are supposed to be following (not US, UK or Australian law).

[thecyclist]

A new passport, in all likelihood, will help:IOs usually do not pay much attention attention to the screen, but they often go back and forth through the passport. I have been going in and out for decades :They would have to scroll down the screen to get all my entries, never see them do it, hardly even look at the computer :but had officer engrossed in my passport for minutes. So to to say that a new passport can't hurt is an understatement. 

[Briggsy]

26 minutes ago, thecyclist said:

A new passport, in all likelihood, will help:IOs usually do not pay much attention attention to the screen, but they often go back and forth through the passport. I have been going in and out for decades :They would have to scroll down the screen to get all my entries, never see them do it, hardly even look at the computer :but had officer engrossed in my passport for minutes. So to to say that a new passport can't hurt is an understatement. 

I completely agree with this. I have been in Thailand on tourist visas for a very long time. A new clean passport seems to speed things along greatly.

[problemfarang]

2 hours ago, BritTim said:

It gets boring having to continually point this out. Under Thai law, immigration officials are only supposed to deny entry according to reasons laid out in Section 12 of the Immigration Act; or according to ministerial/police orders that identify additional reasons for denied entry. The Immigration Act specifically makes clear that only the Minister has discretion to arbitrarily admit or deny entry. This "official has full power" meme is based on people's assumptions of what the law ought to be based on what is common in Western countries. It has nothing to do with Thai law which is what officials are supposed to be following (not US, UK or Australian law).

 

wanna tell this to IO face to face?

tbh denied because of multiple entries with TR visa sounds very logical and reasonable to me. Because of many reasons which i have no time and wish to write here. And i still really dont believe it is illegal for the IO to tell you this and deny you. If it is... then its a big WOW

Edited April 11, 2019 by problemfarang

[Thailand Outcast]

4 hours ago, problemfarang said:

 

i kind of not agree with you. A person who keep coming to the county with any kind of tourist visa is... not normal. common. He might be working here.. or any other things! IO duty is to protect his/her country. and imagine ppl get a new passport to get into the country... this makes more sense to me why IO denying. 

Plus getting a visa and having a visa means nothing. IO officer at the border has the full right to stop you.

In the past, a lot of offshore oil rig workers would come to Thailand.  1 month on the rig, 1 month off.  They would come to Thailand for their month off, and had serious money to spend, especially since they had not seen any alcohol or women for 1 month.  These guys are all but gone now, because of Thailand's visa laws.

 

Then, there were miners, many from Australia.  3 weeks in the mine, 2 weeks off, or similar.  Same thing, no alcohol or women, and big money to spend.  All but gone also. 

 

These are just two examples, there are many more, like short term contract workers, people who own businesses in their home country etc. 

 

You think along the same lines as immigration staff, and it is wrong.

 

Just because someone comes to Thailand regularly, doesn't mean they must be working illegally. 

[BritTim]

5 hours ago, problemfarang said:

wanna tell this to IO face to face?

No. I have lived in many countries over the years, and I know the futility of challenging officials in third world countries with little respect for the rule of law.

 

5 hours ago, problemfarang said:

 tbh denied because of multiple entries with TR visa sounds very logical and reasonable to me. Because of many reasons which i have no time and wish to write here. And i still really dont believe it is illegal for the IO to tell you this and deny you. If it is... then its a big WOW

It may seem logical, but it is not he law. If you believe it is, identify which subsection under Section 12 of the Immigration Act applies. Further, what is the point of having the consulate decide whether you qualify for a tourist visa if the immigration official on entry can simply override the consulate's decision?

[problemfarang]

4 hours ago, Thailand Outcast said:

In the past, a lot of offshore oil rig workers would come to Thailand.  1 month on the rig, 1 month off.  They would come to Thailand for their month off, and had serious money to spend, especially since they had not seen any alcohol or women for 1 month.  These guys are all but gone now, because of Thailand's visa laws.

 

Then, there were miners, many from Australia.  3 weeks in the mine, 2 weeks off, or similar.  Same thing, no alcohol or women, and big money to spend.  All but gone also. 

 

These are just two examples, there are many more, like short term contract workers, people who own businesses in their home country etc. 

 

You think along the same lines as immigration staff, and it is wrong.

 

Just because someone comes to Thailand regularly, doesn't mean they must be working illegally. 

 

well actually my father was a manager at BP and offshore.

thats not 1 month... it is 6 months there and around 3 months off.. now we can see where this 6 month come from after you get 3 times stamp on your visa ????

[BritTim]

5 minutes ago, problemfarang said:

 

well actually my father was a manager at BP and offshore.

thats not 1 month... it is 6 months there and around 3 months off.. now we can see where this 6 month come from after you get 3 times stamp on your visa ????

I do not know about your father, but I knew several offshore workers who were on a 4-week on, 4-week off rotation. It was certainly common in the past.

[problemfarang]

11 minutes ago, BritTim said:

No. I have lived in many countries over the years, and I know the futility of challenging officials in third world countries with little respect for the rule of law.

Well, thanks for the honest answer. Im not trying to create any argument or trying to be offensive, please understand that. But if even you agree with this then its not ok to kinda suggest another to do so. I know you were just trying to give an info but it wasnt look like that... And we all know if IO says no... its a no. end

 

13 minutes ago, BritTim said:

It may seem logical, but it is not he law. If you believe it is, identify which subsection under Section 12 of the Immigration Act applies. Further, what is the point of having the consulate decide whether you qualify for a tourist visa if the immigration official on entry can simply override the consulate's decision?

Now, no need to lie. I dont know the law about this. but we all know the paper work or else doesnt matter at the embassy. I mean for me when i go to savannakhet for NON-O visa i dont even give them full paper work for my visa. Plus my last time, which was about 2 months ago... IO officer asked me why i dont extend my NON-O.. I told her i dont have 400K in the bank i cannot. Im trying to live here. She just laughed and said ok. But the thing is she asked!

So in every country and in thailand IO officer still has the full right to stop you.

[problemfarang]

8 minutes ago, BritTim said:

I do not know about your father, but I knew several offshore workers who were on a 4-week on, 4-week off rotation. It was certainly common in the past.

maybe different position

my father was a brit and the manager of the rig. and im pretty sure it was 6 months at the rig and 3 months off. rest months were for the training new stuff or likewise..

but yes it was..like stoneage ago lol

Edited April 11, 2019 by problemfarang

[JackThompson]

8 hours ago, problemfarang said:

On 4/10/2019 at 5:27 PM, JackThompson said:

"Too much time in Thailand" is not a legal reason to deny entry.  If he didn't have the required 20K Baht in cash, then they could have gotten him on a technicality, as this is a rule on the books.  If he did have it and/or they didn't ask to see it, they probably stamped his passport with "doesn't have enough money to support himself," or similar - since they cannot leave evidence of denying-entry for an illegal reason.

 

It is indeed a legal reason to deny entry.

It is not one of the legal-reasons permitted for denial-of-entry in the Immigration Act.  That is why the "reason" stamped in passports has no reference to "time in country before." 

 

If this is unsatisfactory, the authorities can change the law, issue a ministerial order, or the minister can assign people matching specified criteria to a group subject to (potential or automatic) rejected entry.  

 

The authorities have declined to do any of these things, so IOs who don't agree with them have decided to make up their own rules, and break the laws they swore to uphold.  As there is no effective chain-of-command (note the inconsistent rules at different immigration offices, as well as entry points), they can get away with this behavior.  It's textbook "3rd World Country" behavior - not befitting Thailand; but the corruption is evidently too well-embedded to be dislodged.

 

8 hours ago, problemfarang said:

He might be working here... or doing another things.

If the IO has any evidence of lawbreaking (working illegally, etc), there are legal reasons to deny entry available.  The IO did not cite one of those reasons. 

 

8 hours ago, problemfarang said:

IO duty is to protect his/her country against ppl like these. And he has full right to deny a visitor who is keep coming back. Maybe hes working illegally or else. A person who enters a country many times with any kind of tourist visa is suspicious. 20K is nothing with this, Because its for normal tourists. 

Plus if he even thinking to get a new passport... i would say IO was right tbh.

It is 100% legal to get a new passport, and obtaining valid passports is not an indication of anything criminal (vs illegal "fake passports").  Immigration will have no trouble connecting his old passport with his new one.

 

Immigration has no definition of "normal tourists" vs "non-normal tourists."  The rules for those entering on tourist-entries are simple - you cannot work a Thai job, overstay, or break Thai laws.  That's it.  Nothing about what is "normal" or not.

[problemfarang]

4 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

It is not one of the legal-reasons permitted for denial-of-entry in the Immigration Act.  That is why the "reason" stamped in passports has no reference to "time in country before." 

 

If this is unsatisfactory, the authorities can change the law, issue a ministerial order, or the minister can assign people matching specified criteria to a group subject to (potential or automatic) rejected entry.  

 

The authorities have declined to do any of these things, so IOs who don't agree with them have decided to make up their own rules, and break the laws they swore to uphold.  As there is no effective chain-of-command (note the inconsistent rules at different immigration offices, as well as entry points), they can get away with this behavior.  It's textbook "3rd World Country" behavior - not befitting Thailand; but the corruption is evidently too well-embedded to be dislodged.

 

If the IO has any evidence of lawbreaking (working illegally, etc), there are legal reasons to deny entry available.  The IO did not cite one of those reasons. 

 

It is 100% legal to get a new passport, and obtaining valid passports is not an indication of anything criminal (vs illegal "fake passports").  Immigration will have no trouble connecting his old passport with his new one.

 

Immigration has no definition of "normal tourists" vs "non-normal tourists."  The rules for those entering on tourist-entries are simple - you cannot work a Thai job, overstay, or break Thai laws.  That's it.  Nothing about what is "normal" or not.

 

well thanks for the info then.

also.... i hope you can tell this or try to explain this to the IO... if you have ....

good luck

[JackThompson]

5 minutes ago, problemfarang said:

... but we all know the paper work or else doesnt matter at the embassy. I mean for me when i go to savannakhet for NON-O visa i dont even give them full paper work for my visa. Plus my last time, which was about 2 months ago... IO officer asked me why i dont extend my NON-O.. I told her i dont have 400K in the bank i cannot. Im trying to live here. She just laughed and said ok. But the thing is she asked!

This is an issue that immigration (or the minister of the interior) can take up with the MFA through proper channels if they choose - not an issue to be "taken out" on those entering with valid visas.

 

5 minutes ago, problemfarang said:

So in every country and in thailand IO officer still has the full right to stop you.

They may have the "force" to stop you - same as a thug in the street - but they do not have the legal right to deny entry for any reason not specified in the Immigration Act, or a valid ministerial order.

 

1 minute ago, problemfarang said:

i hope you can tell this or try to explain this to the IO... if you have ....

good luck

I would not do that any more than I would tell an armed mugger that he is breaking the law.  There is no point citing laws to those who don't believe in following laws.  They lack the basic thing that is necessary for a society to function - mutual respect for a law that applies equally to all. 

 

The good news is, most entry-points to Thailand are run by IOs who do follow the law as written.  It's just a clique of bad-IO supervisiors who have taken some key points, and turned them into Somalian-style outposts.

 

It is to the great credit of the character of the Thai people, that the country is not a hellhole, given how laws are ignored, and basic civility disregarded, by some with power (and this affects Thai citizens far more than it does us).

[Penefattore]

9 hours ago, problemfarang said:

 

It is indeed a legal reason to deny entry. He might be working here... or doing another things. IO duty is to protect his/her country against ppl like these. And he has full right to deny a visitor who is keep coming back. Maybe hes working illegally or else. A person who enters a country many times with any kind of tourist visa is suspicious. 20K is nothing with this, Because its for normal tourists. 

Plus if he even thinking to get a new passport... i would say IO was right tbh.

protect country against people who come to spend their cash in Thailand ? Because they "might" be working there ? (where's the rolling on the floor laughing emoticon in this forum ?)

Congratulations , you just succeeded in topping Immigration narrow-mindedness  . Which is quite an achievement , I would have never imagined anyone could do that.

The assumption that frequent visitors "maybe work illegally" is pure paranoia , don't you know there are many rentiers who live on interest from their savings and do not need to work ? 

By the way what would prevent an "illegal worker" to do so on a retirement or educational visa ? Do "illegal workers" have a special crush for tourist visa ?

But most of all , do you think that apart desperate Burmese/Laotians/Cambodians any foreigner would pick Thailand with its average salary of less than 20 bucks a day as a good place for getting a job ?

Anyway if Immigration thinks that frequent visitors are all illegal workers , just state a precise rule for "frequent" , if people starts to doubt a couple of stamps on passport can get them in trouble for sure won't bother to visit again. 

[JackThompson]

23 minutes ago, Penefattore said:

By the way what would prevent an "illegal worker" to do so on a retirement or educational visa ?

Those often involve "extra money" to immigration for the extensions - so they are ok.  They don't really care what you do - just if you pay tribute.

 

23 minutes ago, Penefattore said:

apart desperate Burmese/Laotians/Cambodians any foreigner would pick Thailand with its average salary of less than 20 bucks a day as a good place for getting a job ? 

They used to use the "working illegally" stamp on Western visitors, but it was so preposterous that they switched to something else more vague, and w/o an opportunity to disprove their baseless allegation.

 

Quote

Anyway if Immigration thinks that frequent visitors are all illegal workers , just state a precise rule for "frequent"

I have suggested requiring a week out before re-entry as a tourist - would erase all doubt.  Those illegal jobs (maid, etc) don't give you a week off willy-nilly. 

 

Fact is, if we were willing to work for cheap, they'd look the other way, or perhaps even make a special visa for us - as they have for others.  Given we won't work cheap, they see us as marks to be fleeced - and no way they can do this easily with tourist-entries.

Edited April 11, 2019 by JackThompson