Do you believe in God and why

[sweatalot]

going back to times immemorial does not make the tellings history. There is no proof that a man called Abraham lived. And may be they were changed intentionally for some purpose.

Somebody said "history is the history of the winners". May be there were people who won by declaring the bible history? How does it help our soul to know that Kain murdered Abel?

Edited May 20, 2019 by sweatalot

[Sunmaster]

On 5/18/2019 at 11:06 AM, ThaiBunny said:

My position is that such a God is morally bankrupt and worthy of my contempt, not my worship

this is because you think such "God" has the same notion of "good" and "evil" as you have. By definition, such a God is beyond the polarity of good and evil, which are subjective anyway.

[mauGR1]

1 minute ago, sweatalot said:

How does it help our soul to know that Kain murdered Abel?

I see it as a metaphor of the advent of the agricultural society, which has developed from hunter-gatherers to what we call 'civilised society'

The metaphor is still valid nowadays, Abel is a lazy dreamer, Kain is the restless materialist.. There is a part of Kain and a part of Abel in everyone, and so on.

[Skeptic7]

9 hours ago, sweatalot said:

It was written by a couple of wise authors trying to advise people how to improve their lives.

Sorry I may have broke forum rules by selectively quoting from your post, but just to be clear...the Christian Bible was written by 40 authors over a period of 1500 years. 

 

Not to mention the scribes and errors/agendas, translators and errors/agendas...and forgeries, of which are plentiful. 

[yodsak]

On 4/21/2019 at 12:29 PM, mauGR1 said:

Children can see realities invisible to adults, unless you think they are all liars.

Yes children can.

On 4/21/2019 at 12:20 PM, JWRC said:

 

My second experience was a very nasty ghost who moved houses with my family, the ghost became very jealous of my grandson and would appear to him as a big Teddy Bear, after several months this teddy bear would attack my grandson while he was sleeping and bite him. Now I don't or didn't believe in ghosts until all this happened, my grandson who was only 4 at the time would not go to bed on his own because of the "Teddy Bear". My Thai partner was unperturbed at all this and we visited the local Monks together with my grandson, they were told of the situation and did their chanting over my grandson, they then gave me some "blessed water" and told me to sprinkle it all over the house and tell the ghost that we never had a problem with it, but would it please leave the house. Here's me thinking "what a load of twaddle" but game to try anything I  got some reeds and sprayed the water all over the house, not forgetting a particular wardrobe where the ghost lived. I have never felt like such a prawn in all my life doing this and telling the ghost that we didn't want a problem with it and that it was ok for him/her to move on and would it please go and live elsewhere. That night was the first peaceful night for months and we never never heard from the ghost again.

 

 

 

 

 

The 4 year old child isn't telling the story.   It's JWRC's experience.   He is saying the very nasty teddy bear ghost was in the original house, then moved houses with the family.,

[ Was the ghost a problem in the original house ?].  

 

It became jealous in the new house ,and after several months began to attack the the 4 year old grandson and bite him , the monks get involved, and JWRC  sprays the house with special water,  including the wardrobe where the nasty teddy bear ghost lived.  He talks to the ghost and asks the ghost to move on and go live else where.   And the ghost does.   JWRC now believes in ghosts, as do the thais.

 So where has the nasty teddy bear ghost gone to live ?  do spirit houses not stop ghosts from entering the house?

  All's well that ends well. 

 

[sweatalot]

21 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

I see it as a metaphor of the advent of the agricultural society, which has developed from hunter-gatherers to what we call 'civilised society'

The metaphor is still valid nowadays, Abel is a lazy dreamer, Kain is the restless materialist.. There is a part of Kain and a part of Abel in everyone, and so on.

Agree,  reading the story as a metaphor makes sense. Reading as history does not

[CMNightRider]

The Bible was written over a span of 1500 years, by 40 writers.  Unlike other religious writings, the Bible reads as a factual news account of real events, places, people, and dialogue.  Historians and archaeologists have repeatedly confirmed its authenticity.

 

The accuracy of today’s Old Testament was confirmed in 1947, when archaeologists found “The Dead Sea Scrolls” along today's West Bank in Israel.  "The Dead Sea Scrolls" contained Old Testament scripture dating 1,000 years older than any manuscripts we had.

 

When it comes to the New Testament, written between 50-100 A.D, there are more than 5,000 copies.  All are within 50-225 years of their original writing.  When it comes to Scripture, scribes (monks) were meticulous in their copying of original manuscripts. They checked and rechecked their work, to make sure it perfectly matched.  

 

What the New Testament writers originally wrote is preserved better than any other ancient manuscript.  We can be more certain of what we read about Jesus’ life and words, than we are certain of the writings of Caesar, Plato, Artistotle and Homer.

 

There are a few feather merchants who keep making false statements as to the authenticity of the Bible.  I'll guarantee you, not one of these intellectually challenged individuals have ever sat down and read the Bible, and then investigated the historical events written in the Bible.

 

 

[dick dasterdly]

On 5/18/2019 at 11:06 AM, ThaiBunny said:

My position is that such a God is morally bankrupt and worthy of my contempt, not my worship

Agree entirely, which is why I've always said that if I eventually find out that there is a god (????) - I'd spit in his eye for causing/allowing so much suffering in our world.

Edited May 20, 2019 by dick dasterdly

[Sunmaster]

16 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Agree entirely, which is why I've always said that if I eventually find out that there is a god (????) - I'd spit in his eye for causing/allowing so much suffering in our world.

In that case, are you also going to kiss his feet for creating all the beauty in the world?

[mauGR1]

4 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

In that case, are you also going to kiss his feet for creating all the beauty in the world?

Nope, the beauty in the world we take for granted, but let's blame god when things go pear-shaped..(sarcasm)

[ThaiBunny]

3 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Nope, the beauty in the world we take for granted, but let's blame god when things go pear-shaped..(sarcasm)

I'm always entertained when there's been yet another mass shooting at a school in the US and people start saying of the survivors and the families of the dead "We must remember them in our prayers"

[Sunmaster]

1 minute ago, ThaiBunny said:

I'm always entertained when there's been yet another mass shooting at a school in the US and people start saying of the survivors and the families of the dead "We must remember them in our prayers"

I don't understand...
First I fail to see the entertainment bit, and second are you blaming God for a mass shooting??

[mauGR1]

2 minutes ago, ThaiBunny said:

I'm always entertained when there's been yet another mass shooting at a school in the US and people start saying of the survivors and the families of the dead "We must remember them in our prayers"

Better blame God then..

[Skeptic7]

10 hours ago, CMNightRider said:

The Bible was written over a span of 1500 years, by 40 writers.  Unlike other religious writings, the Bible reads as a factual news account of real events, places, people, and dialogue.  Historians and archaeologists have repeatedly confirmed its authenticity.

 

The accuracy of today’s Old Testament was confirmed in 1947, when archaeologists found “The Dead Sea Scrolls” along today's West Bank in Israel.  "The Dead Sea Scrolls" contained Old Testament scripture dating 1,000 years older than any manuscripts we had.

 

When it comes to the New Testament, written between 50-100 A.D, there are more than 5,000 copies.  All are within 50-225 years of their original writing.  When it comes to Scripture, scribes (monks) were meticulous in their copying of original manuscripts. They checked and rechecked their work, to make sure it perfectly matched.  

 

What the New Testament writers originally wrote is preserved better than any other ancient manuscript.  We can be more certain of what we read about Jesus’ life and words, than we are certain of the writings of Caesar, Plato, Artistotle and Homer.

 

There are a few feather merchants who keep making false statements as to the authenticity of the Bible.  I'll guarantee you, not one of these intellectually challenged individuals have ever sat down and read the Bible, and then investigated the historical events written in the Bible.

 

 

Being no theologian, spent most of the afternoon reading and researching the Dead Sea Scrolls. While some interesting historical Jewish artifacts and fragments of writings found...they certainly don't prove anything about Christianity, which wasn't yet even a twinkle in the adulterous YHWH's eye, nor evidence of any supernatural god. 

 

They are only meaningful to those so invested in such ancient, superstitious ignorance. Also, as as side note...forgeries abound today and the billionaire founder of The Bible Museum in DC was duped out of millions of dollars and verily embarrassed. 555

 

As for the New Testament...I call BS. There is very little (almost zero) non-Christian historical record during the time of the supposedly most important "man" ever. The 2 most noteworthy are by Flavious Josephus, 1st century Jewish historian...1 which is admittedly a rank forgery by all and the other a questionable 3rd person reference referring to James the brother of Jesus, the so-called Christ. Quite weak and extremely limited mention of a man-god, born of a virgin (yeah right)...performing miracles...and rising from the dead. Extremely weak and limited when other parts of 1st century history is more well reported, though nowhere near as important or impressive. 

 

IF Jesus existed at all...he was just a human cult leader whom got over elevated and overrated after his human demise. 

 

Learned a bit today about the Old Testament. New Testament I'm much more familiar to be prepared for good debate with the believers.

 

My conclusion: Dead Sea Scrolls (& Old Testament) and New Testament prove nothing Divine or Supernatural, nor even clarify much, if anything, to any but the most devout. DSS may even give rise to more questions than answers. Yes...A remarkable, historical find and important to Jewish history, but nothing remarkable in it to change many/any minds. They get us...ALL of us...non-believers and believers alike...no closer to any evidence for any thing even remotely qualifying as a god. That requires and is where blind faith comes in. 

Edited May 20, 2019 by Skeptic7

[Elad]

Of course God exists... He's the big guy with long brown hair, a beard and wears sandals...

 

Sometimes your can hear him upstairs moving his furniture around... some people call it thunder. ????

[mauGR1]

6 hours ago, Skeptic7 said:

Being no theologian, spent most of the afternoon reading and researching the Dead Sea Scrolls.

 

6 hours ago, Skeptic7 said:

no closer to any evidence for any thing even remotely qualifying as a god. That requires and is where blind faith comes in. 

So you spent most of the afternoon looking for God on internet and you did not find him.

Tough luck

 

 

[Skeptic7]

2 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

 

So you spent most of the afternoon looking for God on internet and you did not find him.

Tough luck

 

 

Exactly is the kind of meaningless quip expected from the Woo Guru himself. Was not looking for god, but rather into the relevance of the Dead Sea Scrolls since they were brought up by CMNR. Actually spent time doing meaningful, objective & honest research on the topic. Nothing Earth shattering, nor even mildly mind changing was found. Had that been the case, it would have changed minds and settled the issue 70 years ago, or sometime since. 

 

While an interesting and valuable find to Jewish history and Judaism and those interested and/or invested in such...they yeild nothing of relevance to those whom aren't.

 

Clear 'nuff for ya now? 

[Skeptic7]

Book recommendation for all. For a LOL, hilarious read based literally on The God of The Bible...

 

The Story of God by Chris Matheson. ????

[CMNightRider]

9 hours ago, Skeptic7 said:

Being no theologian, spent most of the afternoon reading and researching the Dead Sea Scrolls. While some interesting historical Jewish artifacts and fragments of writings found...they certainly don't prove anything about Christianity, which wasn't yet even a twinkle in the adulterous YHWH's eye, nor evidence of any supernatural god. 

 

They are only meaningful to those so invested in such ancient, superstitious ignorance. Also, as as side note...forgeries abound today and the billionaire founder of The Bible Museum in DC was duped out of millions of dollars and verily embarrassed. 555

 

As for the New Testament...I call BS. There is very little (almost zero) non-Christian historical record during the time of the supposedly most important "man" ever. The 2 most noteworthy are by Flavious Josephus, 1st century Jewish historian...1 which is admittedly a rank forgery by all and the other a questionable 3rd person reference referring to James the brother of Jesus, the so-called Christ. Quite weak and extremely limited mention of a man-god, born of a virgin (yeah right)...performing miracles...and rising from the dead. Extremely weak and limited when other parts of 1st century history is more well reported, though nowhere near as important or impressive. 

 

IF Jesus existed at all...he was just a human cult leader whom got over elevated and overrated after his human demise. 

 

Learned a bit today about the Old Testament. New Testament I'm much more familiar to be prepared for good debate with the believers.

 

My conclusion: Dead Sea Scrolls (& Old Testament) and New Testament prove nothing Divine or Supernatural, nor even clarify much, if anything, to any but the most devout. DSS may even give rise to more questions than answers. Yes...A remarkable, historical find and important to Jewish history, but nothing remarkable in it to change many/any minds. They get us...ALL of us...non-believers and believers alike...no closer to any evidence for any thing even remotely qualifying as a god. That requires and is where blind faith comes in. 

Have you given any thought to being wrong about you assumption regarding life after death?  If you are wrong, you will have an eternity to regret this decision in agony.  

 

I think instead of wasting your time on this site, it would be better to actually read the Bible yourself, and then give thought to the prophecies in the Bible, and the historical facts mentioned in the Bible that has been proven to be true.     

[giddyup]

46 minutes ago, CMNightRider said:

Have you given any thought to being wrong about you assumption regarding life after death?  If you are wrong, you will have an eternity to regret this decision in agony.  

 

I think instead of wasting your time on this site, it would be better to actually read the Bible yourself, and then give thought to the prophecies in the Bible, and the historical facts mentioned in the Bible that has been proven to be true.     

Isn't that what religion instills in people, the fear of eternal damnation if you are a non-believer? Sorry, but I don't respond well to threats.

[mauGR1]

39 minutes ago, giddyup said:

Isn't that what religion instills in people, the fear of eternal damnation if you are a non-believer? Sorry, but I don't respond well to threats.

I also don't believe in something like "eternal damnation" , but i suspect there is something like a law of "action and reaction", which, honestly, i can't fully understand.

I don't think that being a "believer" or a "non believer" is important, but every action is followed by a reaction, of that i'm fairly sure.

[giddyup]

6 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

I also don't believe in something like "eternal damnation" , but i suspect there is something like a law of "action and reaction", which, honestly, i can't fully understand.

I don't think that being a "believer" or a "non believer" is important, but every action is followed by a reaction, of that i'm fairly sure.

"Have you given any thought to being wrong about you assumption regarding life after death?  If you are wrong, you will have an eternity to regret this decision in agony." What did you mean by this comment?  

[mauGR1]

6 minutes ago, giddyup said:

"Have you given any thought to being wrong about you assumption regarding life after death?  If you are wrong, you will have an eternity to regret this decision in agony." What did you mean by this comment?  

I didn't say that.

[giddyup]

1 minute ago, mauGR1 said:

I didn't say that.

Sorry, my mistake it was CMnightrider.

[Sunmaster]

19 minutes ago, giddyup said:

"Have you given any thought to being wrong about you assumption regarding life after death?  If you are wrong, you will have an eternity to regret this decision in agony." What did you mean by this comment?  

He meant that if you don't believe in God, you will spend the rest of eternity in hell regretting the fact that you didn't believe while alive.
And things like this are exactly why the Christian religion is losing more and more followers. The shining jewel at its core is covered in so much dirt, superstition and mind-bending BS, that only few can wade through to find it. A pity, because it does have important values to teach (love, compassion...).
If they are not capable of changing and evolving, they'll soon disappear. Just look at the churches and monasteries in Europe...fewer and fewer people become priests and monks. Priests have to be "imported" now from other countries (Africa, Eastern Europe) to fill the positions. A monastery in my city saw 4 old monks die within the last 2 years, only 2 new ones replaced them.

 

Edited May 21, 2019 by Sunmaster

[Sunmaster]

It just doesn't make sense for me...
If God is pure Love, how could he punish his children for making a small "mistake". One can be a great loving person and not believe in God, yet by some standards, he will still have to face eternity in hell. 
No normal parent would punish his children by retracting all the love from them. Why would God then, who is supposed to be the all knowing, wise and pure loving father?? Because it says so in a book??? 

[mauGR1]

2 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

He meant that if you don't believe in God, you will spend the rest of eternity in hell regretting the fact that you didn't believe while alive.
And things like this are exactly why the Christian religion is losing more and more followers. The shining jewel at its core is covered in so much dirt, superstition and mind-bending BS, that only few can wade through to find it. A pity, because it does have important values to teach (love, compassion...).
If they are not capable of changing and evolving, they'll soon disappear. Just look at the churches and monasteries in Europe...fewer and fewer people become priests and monks. Priests have to be "imported" now from other countries (Africa, Eastern Europe) to fill the positions. A monastery in my city saw 4 old monks die within the last 2 years, only 2 new ones replaced them.

 

True, one of Jesus close friends, Thomas, was not believing anything, but he was his friend, while there is a certain episode in Jesus's life when he went to the temple and berated the priests, who were exploiting the people for their personal gain.

[Skeptic7]

2 hours ago, CMNightRider said:

Have you given any thought to being wrong about you assumption regarding life after death?  If you are wrong, you will have an eternity to regret this decision in agony.  

 

I think instead of wasting your time on this site, it would be better to actually read the Bible yourself, and then give thought to the prophecies in the Bible, and the historical facts mentioned in the Bible that has been proven to be true.     

I know you are well intended, so I'll try not to offend...but do you really think I haven't read it? I, as most atheists, know more about it than most believers. Not because I was ever religious, required, or a believer...but rather because it's fascinating that others are. I am more moral than the thing you worship. 

 

The Abramhamic god of Judaism, Christianity and Islam (all the same) is simply awful and even if It did exist...would want nothing to do with It. Richard Dawkins describes It best...

 

'...the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.'

 

I could not possibly agree more. 

 

And please spare me the New Covenant BS. That's a cop out. Your god claims to be perfect and unchanging. Can't have the New Testament without the Old and your JC said he did not come to change the old law, but to uphold it...every jot and tittle. No cherry picking either. 

 

What you're offering is Pascal's Wager which goes...even if you don't believe, pretend you do, by fooling god, to avoid burning for all eternity in a lake of fire, and con your way into heaven. Any god would see right through such a ruse, so all the pretenders, of which are many, are in for the big slow roast too! 

 

Can't choose beliefs anyway bro. I can't make myself believe something I don't...nobody can. And I have zero interest in believing ridiculous, magical, mystical superstition...which is exactly what it is. 

 

su·per·sti·tion

/ˌso͞opərˈstiSH(ə)n/

noun

1. excessively credulous belief in and reverence for supernatural beings.

 

 

 

[CMNightRider]

49 minutes ago, giddyup said:

"Have you given any thought to being wrong about you assumption regarding life after death?  If you are wrong, you will have an eternity to regret this decision in agony." What did you mean by this comment?  

Those are not my words.  It is what the Bible states.  All I am suggesting is it may be a wise idea to read the Bible, so you can make an intelligent decision.  If you are not interested then don't worry about it.  

[ThaiBunny]

6 minutes ago, CMNightRider said:

Those are not my words.  It is what the Bible states.  All I am suggesting is it may be a wise idea to read the Bible, so you can make an intelligent decision.  If you are not interested then don't worry about it.  

The Bible is the infallible Word of God. How do we know? The Bible says so