Do you believe in God and why

[Tippaporn]

31 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

 

Basically, we have very limited power to change other people's mind, but truly unlimited power to change and improve our own.

I find Plato's allegory of the cave enlightening in this regard, we have some sort of moral duty to warn those who are chained in the darkness, but we should not expect a medal for that effort.. instead we are often treated as fools, well, I'm getting fairly used to that ????

We have zero power to change other people's minds.  You create your own reality.  That is the main rule.  Therefore no one can create within another's reality.  However, we do have influence.  That is something which is well understood by those in power.  It is common knowledge that "influencers" are used to promote whatever narrative is to be promoted.  TikTok influencers, Hollywood influencers, recording artist influencers.  Anyone with a large following is targeted to use their influence towards the ends which those who recruit these influencers have.

I have to say that the information which Seth provides is meant to be practical above all else.  And it's practical applications are endless.  For instance, when one truly understands the concept of the physical universe as idea construction, when someone finally gets it that it's all about ideas, when the comprehension finally sinks in that this world and your personal life is a literal idea construction constructed from the endless ideas which exist, and most importantly those which reside in your own mind, your perception of the world will forever be altered.  You can see and understand so much of what is going on and why.  Both personally and en masse.  The clarity which comes from that understanding is simply amazing.
 

Edited May 24, 2023 by Tippaporn

[save the frogs]

On 5/22/2023 at 11:41 AM, Sunmaster said:

I believe you mean the universe is 38 billion years old, not God. 

then god must be really really really old. 

[save the frogs]

9 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

Either it was all created either by happenstance with no rhyme or reason or purpose or it was intentionally created. 

I'm on team "intentionally created".

But that still doesn't answer how or why or what the purpose of any of it is or where anything is leading. 

And as I argued with my film analysis of Prometheus, I think we're not meant to know.

So that's why neither science nor religion has the answers. 

Not yet, anyway.

 

[Sunmaster]

6 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

then god must be really really really old. 

Something that is not bound by time is neither old nor young. It always was and will always be, because it just IS.

[Sunmaster]

3 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

I'm on team "intentionally created".

But that still doesn't answer how or why or what the purpose of any of it is or where anything is leading. 

And as I argued with my film analysis of Prometheus, I think we're not meant to know.

So that's why neither science nor religion has the answers. 

Not yet, anyway.

 

It sounds scary, but the more I think about it, the more I believe there is no purpose behind it all. 

This doesn't mean that we can't give our lives a meaning, though. 

 

I agree with you on the part that we are not meant to know. We don't come into this life knowing who we are. We forget, and there is a reason this happens. 

But again, this doesn't mean that we can't know or at least strive to know.

[mauGR1]

5 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

It sounds scary, but the more I think about it, the more I believe there is no purpose behind it all. 

This doesn't mean that we can't give our lives a meaning, though. 

 

I agree with you on the part that we are not meant to know. We don't come into this life knowing who we are. We forget, and there is a reason this happens. 

But again, this doesn't mean that we can't know or at least strive to know.

That's a quite thought provoking post, in fact, why the absolute, otherwise known as "all that is" would have a purpose apart from existence ?

Of course,  i agree that not only we can give our life a meaning, but arguably, life can be better if we give it a meaning.

Perhaps I'll have a better answer in a few hours.

[Hummin]

3 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

That's a quite thought provoking post, in fact, why the absolute, otherwise known as "all that is" would have a purpose apart from existence ?

Of course,  i agree that not only we can give our life a meaning, but arguably, life can be better if we give it a meaning.

Perhaps I'll have a better answer in a few hours.

I like the idea we have no purpose, make it easier to understand the craziness and the chaos that surrounds us. Do your best, use your abilities the best you can, and thats it. One shot, thats all, recycle, 

[mauGR1]

5 hours ago, Hummin said:

I like the idea we have no purpose, make it easier to understand the craziness and the chaos that surrounds us. Do your best, use your abilities the best you can, and thats it. One shot, thats all, recycle, 

Uhm, ok, it's no surprise to me, but maybe " the craziness and the chaos that surround us", depends by so many people having no purpose ????

Note that i say " maybe ", as it's quite possible that people with a purpose can be creators of chaos as well.

Well, whatever one's stance on purpose is, i think it deserves some serious investigations. 

Perhaps, and this is just an intuition, which may be just a crazy idea, " purposes " can be  portals to different kinds of incarnations..

[Tippaporn]

9 hours ago, Hummin said:

I like the idea we have no purpose, make it easier to understand the craziness and the chaos that surrounds us. Do your best, use your abilities the best you can, and thats it. One shot, thats all, recycle, 

"There are other directions that your race can take, and I'm trying to point out those directions to you.  And if you take those directions, then indeed-in your terms-there will be a birth of a new species - a species that understands its blessed creaturehood, that understands its spirituality, that does not despoil its planet, that purposefully creates the kind of world a sane god would create, a god who has no need for a heaven or a hell!"

 

The currently accepted mass ideas which are used to create our mass experienced temporal reality lead to "the craziness and the chaos that surrounds us."  One of those ideas which are used in the formation of our mass reality is the idea that "we have no purpose."

Here's a great analogy which explains idea construction as the formation of experience and which one can use to understand the world around them.

Imagine yourself in a kitchen in which the cupboards contain every ingredient that exists.  Your job as the chef is to choose those ingredients which, mixed together, create a satisfying, pleasing, delightful and fulfilling gastronomical experience.

 

Now imagine yourself in a world in which the cupboards contain every idea that exists.  Your job as the creator of your life is to choose those ideas which, mixed together, create a satisfying, pleasing, delightful and fulfilling lived experience.

 

If you were to walk into a kitchen and observe on the counter shredded reindeer meat, butter, fresh mushrooms, bacon, water, sour cream, milk, ekte geitost, crushed juniper berries, and dried thyme you would probably remark that someone is cooking up some delicious, yummy finnbiff.  And you would be correct.  If the chef were to tell you that he was making kransekake you would quickly raise your eyebrows and with incredulouslness protest that those ingredients could not possibly produce kransekake.  Those ingredients c an only produce finnbiff.  And you would again be correct.

 

In the same way reality is created using ingredients which are ideas.  You choose from within the cupboards a range of ideas which together produce a certain dish, or outcome.

 

To understand the craziness and chaos which you witness in the world then the question becomes, "Which ideas would produce these outcomes."  If someone told you the craziness and chaos were the result of love, happiness, fulfillment, a sense of purpose and meaning you'd balk.  And rightly so.  You might see hatred, purposelessness, hopelessness, unfulfillment, fear, meaninglessness, and other ideas at play.  For only certain ideas could produce such results.

Now in this miraculous kitchen the cupboards are, again, filled with every ingredient imaginable.  Your job, your only job, is to choose those ingredients which produce the culinary delight you desire.  As to the ingredients which you do not like your job is not to eliminate them from the kitchen so that no other is able to choose them.  To eliminate them is not within your or anyone else's purview.  It is an impossibility.  As long as you do not choose those unwanted experience they will not enter your wonderful meal.  Only by choosing them would they get mixed in and so spoil your otherwise scrumptious feast.

Because people don't understand that ideas, thoughts create reality they are not choosing their ideas or their thoughts with discrimination but rather take in whatever comes across their path.  They are creating experience by default rather than with purposeful intention.  The entire reason entities such as Seth enter our existence is to teach us just that.  How to create consciously rather than unconsciously.  It's said that you're only half alive when you live life unconsciously to a large degree.

 

When one understands how reality is actually constructed then one can begin to view events with much greater clarity and understanding.  The "ingredients" used for any given event become very apparent.  Even when one cannot easily identify a particular ingredient one can certainly employ the process of elimination and quickly rule out the ingredients which cannot possibly be present.

Does the above make sense, Hummin?  I'm asking with respect and sincerity for your answer and not asking in the vein of belittlement.  Just to be clear.   

[Tippaporn]

18 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Uhm, ok, it's no surprise to me, but maybe " the craziness and the chaos that surround us", depends by so many people having no purpose ????

Note that i say " maybe ", as it's quite possible that people with a purpose can be creators of chaos as well.

Well, whatever one's stance on purpose is, i think it deserves some serious investigations. 

Perhaps, and this is just an intuition, which may be just a crazy idea, " purposes " can be  portals to different kinds of incarnations..

"Uhm, ok, it's no surprise to me, but maybe " the craziness and the chaos that surround us", depends by so many people having no purpose."

Buy this man another drink!!!  Thank you very much for that extremely astute thought, mauGR1.    Seth has harped on this extensively.  A life without purpose would literally drive men mad, is what he says.  And for me, at least, that outcome is as obvious as the nose on my face.  The cause of much of the chaos in the world can indeed be linked to the idea that there exists no purpose or meaning to life.  Without meaning or purpose how is it possible to achieve fulfillment?  And why would anything matter?  Would that madness not manifest itself, perhaps, in the recent development of mass school shootings that are being experienced in the U.S., which are seemingly becoming everyday common occurrences as the new normal? 

 

I'm shocked to even hear the idea that existence has no purpose coming from those who are of a spiritual bent.  I recall quite clearly so many science-minded folks here making that same claim.  To which I would always push back on as utter nonsense.  Anyway, my jaw dropped to the floor upon hearing this idea being contemplated as being an actual fact, or aspect of existence. 
 

17 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

It sounds scary, but the more I think about it, the more I believe there is no purpose behind it all. 

This doesn't mean that we can't give our lives a meaning, though. 

 

I agree with you on the part that we are not meant to know. We don't come into this life knowing who we are. We forget, and there is a reason this happens. 

But again, this doesn't mean that we can't know or at least strive to know.

Yes, the idea that there is no purpose behind existence is quite scary.  So I have a serious question for you, Sunmaster.  In a world in which the purpose within everything can clearly be seen what is it specifically that you see which leads you to the possible conclusion that existence has no purpose?  I assume there is some example which you can point to.  And I'll posit this:  if existence is without purpose how is it that everything within existence ended up having purpose?

I found this gem on the Internet this morning.  It's a list which someone at Purdue University created of a number of Seth's concepts and Seth's related quotes explaining those concepts.  Here are the Seth quotes which relate to the question:

IN GENERAL, WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF THIS EXISTENCE?

 

In the most basic sense, the purpose of life is being - as opposed to not being.

 

In your system of three-dimensional reality you are learning about mental energy (also called thought energy or psychic energy) and how to use it.

 

Knowledge about mental energy and its use is learned by constantly transforming your thoughts and emotions into physical form (your physical reality) and by then perceiving and dealing with the matter and events that are formed.

 

From doing this, you are supposed to get a clear picture of your inner development as it is reflected by the exterior environment.

 

You participate in physical reality so that you can operate and experience within this dimension. Here, you can develop your abilities, learn, create, solve problems and help others.

 

Matter is the shape that basic experience takes when it comes into your three-dimensional system.

 

Your dreams, thoughts, expectations, beliefs and emotions are literally transformed into physical matter.

 

Granted, this question is specifically in regards to purpose as it relates to this existence.  Whereas in Sunmaster's reply to save the frogs he may have been referring to the lack of purpose as it relates to existence as a whole.  Not sure but maybe you could clarify what exactly you were referring to with the words, "it all."  Does "it all" mean existence itself or simply physical existence?

Anyone who cares to enter in the search term "purpose" in the Seth material search engine will find Seth quotes which are absolutely polluted with the word purpose.  Here are just a few as they pertain to purpose in life and the universe.  I wish I could find the exact quote where he states that man would go mad if purpose was removed from life so as to give the entire context.  It's always been frustrating for me to locate specific material relative to a discussion.  It's easily found in my brain but it's almost impossible to remember where it is to be found given the voluminousness of the Seth material.

"Man’s will to survive includes a sense of meaning and purpose, and a feeling for the quality (underlined) of life."
—DEaVF1 Chapter 5: Session 902, February 20, 1980

 

"Your closest approximation of the purpose of the universe can be found in those loving emotions that you have toward the development of your children, in your intent to have them develop their fullest capacities."
—DEaVF1 Chapter 1: Session 882, September 26, 1979

 

"Every nerve and fiber within the body has an unseen inner purpose."

[mauGR1]

12 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

"Uhm, ok, it's no surprise to me, but maybe " the craziness and the chaos that surround us", depends by so many people having no purpose."

Buy this man another drink!!!  Thank you very much for that extremely astute thought, mauGR1.    Seth has harped on this extensively.  A life without purpose would literally drive men mad, is what he says.  And for me, at least, that outcome is as obvious as the nose on my face.  The cause of much of the chaos in the world can indeed be linked to the idea that there exists no purpose or meaning to life.  Without meaning or purpose how is it possible to achieve fulfillment?  And why would anything matter?  Would that madness not manifest itself, perhaps, in the recent development of mass school shootings that are being experienced in the U.S., which are seemingly becoming everyday common occurrences as the new normal? 

 

I'm shocked to even hear the idea that existence has no purpose coming from those who are of a spiritual bent.  I recall quite clearly so many science-minded folks here making that same claim.  To which I would always push back on as utter nonsense.  Anyway, my jaw dropped to the floor upon hearing this idea being contemplated as being an actual fact, or aspect of existence. 
 

Yes, the idea that there is no purpose behind existence is quite scary.  So I have a serious question for you, Sunmaster.  In a world in which the purpose within everything can clearly be seen what is it specifically that you see which leads you to the possible conclusion that existence has no purpose?  I assume there is some example which you can point to.  And I'll posit this:  if existence is without purpose how is it that everything within existence ended up having purpose?

I found this gem on the Internet this morning.  It's a list which someone at Purdue University created of a number of Seth's concepts and Seth's related quotes explaining those concepts.  Here are the Seth quotes which relate to the question:

IN GENERAL, WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF THIS EXISTENCE?

 

In the most basic sense, the purpose of life is being - as opposed to not being.

 

In your system of three-dimensional reality you are learning about mental energy (also called thought energy or psychic energy) and how to use it.

 

Knowledge about mental energy and its use is learned by constantly transforming your thoughts and emotions into physical form (your physical reality) and by then perceiving and dealing with the matter and events that are formed.

 

From doing this, you are supposed to get a clear picture of your inner development as it is reflected by the exterior environment.

 

You participate in physical reality so that you can operate and experience within this dimension. Here, you can develop your abilities, learn, create, solve problems and help others.

 

Matter is the shape that basic experience takes when it comes into your three-dimensional system.

 

Your dreams, thoughts, expectations, beliefs and emotions are literally transformed into physical matter.

 

Granted, this question is specifically in regards to purpose as it relates to this existence.  Whereas in Sunmaster's reply to save the frogs he may have been referring to the lack of purpose as it relates to existence as a whole.  Not sure but maybe you could clarify what exactly you were referring to with the words, "it all."  Does "it all" mean existence itself or simply physical existence?

Anyone who cares to enter in the search term "purpose" in the Seth material search engine will find Seth quotes which are absolutely polluted with the word purpose.  Here are just a few as they pertain to purpose in life and the universe.  I wish I could find the exact quote where he states that man would go mad if purpose was removed from life so as to give the entire context.  It's always been frustrating for me to locate specific material relative to a discussion.  It's easily found in my brain but it's almost impossible to remember where it is to be found given the voluminousness of the Seth material.

"Man’s will to survive includes a sense of meaning and purpose, and a feeling for the quality (underlined) of life."
—DEaVF1 Chapter 5: Session 902, February 20, 1980

 

"Your closest approximation of the purpose of the universe can be found in those loving emotions that you have toward the development of your children, in your intent to have them develop their fullest capacities."
—DEaVF1 Chapter 1: Session 882, September 26, 1979

 

"Every nerve and fiber within the body has an unseen inner purpose."

Thanks for your appreciation Tippaporn, it has some meaning to me, and it's reciprocal.

It's fair, however, to be in doubt, at times, and personally, after been often accused to be dogmatic, i don't feel like expressing absolute certainties. 

I remember reading Don Juan words as a teen, " be sure that the path you choose has a heart", and since then, I'm trying. 

Although with different words and nuances, i think D.J. , Seth, Steiner and other masters put some emphasis on the same concept. 

Moreover, in this age of confusion, having no purpose at all, can make one an easy prey for the " dark forces" imho.

[Tippaporn]

4 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Thanks for your appreciation Tippaporn, it has some meaning to me, and it's reciprocal.

It's fair, however, to be in doubt, at times, and personally, after been often accused to be dogmatic, i don't feel like expressing absolute certainties. 

I remember reading Don Juan words as a teen, " be sure that the path you choose has a heart", and since then, I'm trying. 

Although with different words and nuances, i think D.J. , Seth, Steiner and other masters put some emphasis on the same concept. 

Moreover, in this age of confusion, having no purpose at all, can make one an easy prey for the " dark forces" imho.

Life is never without doubt.  Anyone who reads Seth and the like is certainly filled with doubt as they go along.  I know.  I know very well.

I hear you about expressing ideas with absolute certainty.  For myself I had a choice to make early on when I came onto this thread.  Do I declare with absolute certainty what I know or do I couch it in terms like "I think" or "I believe" or "in my opinion" and other such qualifiers.  I opted to declare what I know with absolute certainty.  But only that which I know with absolute certainty for there is much that I do not know.  I've gotten a lot of flack for my choice.  But I felt that to pretend that I don't know for certain what I do know for certain is to be cowardly.  Cowardly in the sense that I would give in to the avoidance of criticism.  And I thought, f-it, I'm too old to waste time.  Be brave.

Having no purpose or meaning in life can only lead to emptiness.  And that emptiness, as it finds it's eventual outlet, cannot lead to pleasant manifestations.  It's an ingredient that can produce only one result.  And it ain't tasty at all.

[mauGR1]

5 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

But I felt that to pretend that I don't know for certain what I do know for certain is to be cowardly.  Cowardly in the sense that I would give in to the avoidance of criticism.  And I thought, f-it, I'm too old to waste time.  Be brave.

Amen to that ????

[Sunmaster]

35 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

Granted, this question is specifically in regards to purpose as it relates to this existence.  Whereas in Sunmaster's reply to save the frogs he may have been referring to the lack of purpose as it relates to existence as a whole.  Not sure but maybe you could clarify what exactly you were referring to with the words, "it all."  Does "it all" mean existence itself or simply physical existence?

When I say "There is no purpose behind it all." I refer to the highest perspective I'm able to imagine. That non-dual Ground of all Being which is pure being-ness. My intuition tells me there is no purpose there, just IS-ness.
Once that non-dual Being-ness splits into duality, everything else is created, including purpose. 
That's why I added that the ultimate lack of purpose in non-duality doesn't preclude that we can give our lives meaning and purpose. As I see it, the purpose of our existence is to "know thyself", gather all necessary pieces of the puzzle, choose the path with a heart, return to the Source.....only to realize that there was no purpose to start with.

Like many masters told us, we strive to become enlightened, we meditate, we read books, we do this and that, but at the moment of enlightenment the masters realize the absurdity of it all. We are already that which we are seeking. There is nothing we can do to make it happen. 

It's a paradox and it's still blurry in my mind, but like I said...my intuition is telling me this and I think I'm unto something.

 

[Tippaporn]

Well, another main reason I had for my decision to declare firmly that I know things with absolute certainty is to counter a very debilitating belief which is abhorrent to me.  No one can know.  I call major bullsh!t on that thoroughly impoverished notion.

Which leads me to . . .

 

21 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

<snip>

 

I agree with you on the part that we are not meant to know. We don't come into this life knowing who we are. We forget, and there is a reason this happens. 

But again, this doesn't mean that we can't know or at least strive to know.

I agree with you on all but the first statement, Sunmaster.  Though I admit that the first is up to interpretation.

 

If I interpret it as expressed in Christian theology - "it is for God to know" - then I consider that idea impoverished as well.  For that well known phrase smacks of the idea that us lowly humans aren't allowed certain information.  We cannot know what God knows in the vein that it's forbidden knowledge for us.

If I interpret it in the context of the 3rd statement then it reads to me that we are not meant to come into this world with full awareness.  Then I would agree.  For there are no doubt a number of very practical considerations which account for our unawareness of the rest of us, our reincarnational selves, and our probable selves and other selves.  Full awareness would make it impossible to have the type of experience we intended.

One piece of information which we do keep hidden from ourselves, again for good reason and purpose, is the time of our death.

[Sunmaster]

18 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

If I interpret it in the context of the 3rd statement then it reads to me that we are not meant to come into this world with full awareness.  Then I would agree.  For there are no doubt a number of very practical considerations which account for our unawareness of the rest of us, our reincarnational selves, and our probable selves and other selves.  Full awareness would make it impossible to have the type of experience we intended.

Yes, of course I meant it this way. 

Are you trying to give me a hard time today? ????

[Tippaporn]

28 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

When I say "There is no purpose behind it all." I refer to the highest perspective I'm able to imagine. That non-dual Ground of all Being which is pure being-ness. My intuition tells me there is no purpose there, just IS-ness.
Once that non-dual Being-ness splits into duality, everything else is created, including purpose. 
That's why I added that the ultimate lack of purpose in non-duality doesn't preclude that we can give our lives meaning and purpose. As I see it, the purpose of our existence is to "know thyself", gather all necessary pieces of the puzzle, choose the path with a heart, return to the Source.....only to realize that there was no purpose to start with.

Like many masters told us, we strive to become enlightened, we meditate, we read books, we do this and that, but at the moment of enlightenment the masters realize the absurdity of it all. We are already that which we are seeking. There is nothing we can do to make it happen. 

It's a paradox and it's still blurry in my mind, but like I said...my intuition is telling me this and I think I'm unto something.

Stupid question but what is duality?  I've heard the term many times but for some reason it seemed off-putting to me and I never bothered to investigate it's meaning.  I understand duality only in terms of our existence to mean opposites.  Male female, up down, left right, in out, right wrong, good evil, etc.  All being the flip side of the same coin.  I can't recall that don Juan talked about duality but I think he did.  You should be able to confirm, I think.  But in all of the other material I've read, which is more than just Seth, I've never heard the phrase used.  Perhaps that's why I find it off-putting?  Since I don't know what it really refers to I can't say whether I believe in the existence of such a concept.

I tend to go with Seth's statement below:

In the most basic sense, the purpose of life is being - as opposed to not being.

 

I would imagine that even All That Is is being.  Hence All That Is would innately have purpose.

I never liked terms such as enlightenment due to what that term implies.  In essence, an end to a journey.  A finished product.  Or the concept of seeking.  Seeking what?  That which we currently are not?  I believe that we are endlessly creative and as there is no single reality in which we can express ourselves in full we create infinite realities for that self expression.  As a great artist who cannot express himself fully on the medium of a canvas alone and so expresses himself in multiple mediums.

I especially find the idea of anything as absurd to be distasteful.  Everything has meaning and everything has purpose and there is none of it which is better or worse than the other.  And all of it is ultimately us anyway. To consider any of it as absurd is, in my mind, to then consider a portion of ourselves as absurd.  Which is absurd to me. 

 

One of the reasons I've never delved into eastern religions is due to their idea that this worldly existence is somehow subpar, perhaps due to the pain which exists here, and something to suffer through (the irony) until we can finally find something called enlightenment in which suffer comes to an end, and in which we blend into oneness and, God forbid, lose our identity.  No thanks.

Here are some more quotes from Seth:

 

"In your state of development you cannot easily understand the meaning of the word “purpose,” for to you the term itself implies an eventual rigidity, a goal with an end, a progression, literally, toward a nothingness that it would have to follow once a goal in those terms was achieved."

 

[. . . ]

 

"Both of us are obviously then portions of a larger self [referring to himself and Jane], and manifestations of it, but one does not end in the other, and one’s purpose is not to become the other. We all, quite simply, are. Keep this sort of thing in mind when you think in terms of purposes. For the word can distract you, and lead you into narrowing concepts."
—TES9 Session 428 August 12, 1968

 

Well, the narrowing of the concept of purpose is, I agree, exactly as he stated in his first statement.  I especially agree with this portion:

". . . and one’s purpose is not to become the other."

In other words, we're not trying to attain some state that, at worst, is a finished state.  As Seth has remarked on Heaven, it is an impossible state of existence and if there were such a thing as true death Heaven would be it.  For it represents a finished state in which there can be no more growth.  Yet growth is never ending.  It's eternal.  Whether that growth is in one direction or another to me all directions which growth takes are equal in their value and importance.

In our terms that translates to, say, the decision of a youth as to what he wants to become when he finishes school.  A doctor, lawyer, chimney sweeper . . . all represent growth and none is better or worse than the other.  All provide avenues for fulfillment.  (Although our cultural world would certainly make clear distinctions of better and worse based on remuneration.  )

[Tippaporn]

58 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

Yes, of course I meant it this way. 

Are you trying to give me a hard time today? ????

Are you looking only for confirmation of your ideas? 

Of course you like to be challenged!!!  I know that.  All in good fun. 

[Sunmaster]

14 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

Stupid question but what is duality?  I've heard the term many times but for some reason it seemed off-putting to me and I never bothered to investigate it's meaning.  I understand duality only in terms of our existence to mean opposites.  Male female, up down, left right, in out, right wrong, good evil, etc.  All being the flip side of the same coin.  I can't recall that don Juan talked about duality but I think he did.  You should be able to confirm, I think.  But in all of the other material I've read, which is more than just Seth, I've never heard the phrase used.  Perhaps that's why I find it off-putting?  Since I don't know what it really refers to I can't say whether I believe in the existence of such a concept.

I tend to go with Seth's statement below:

In the most basic sense, the purpose of life is being - as opposed to not being.

Duality....all that which comes from the non-dual, everything you can sense with your outer and inner senses. On one hand the non-dual is beyond the dual, but at the same time it is the very ground from which the dual arises.
The symbol of the TAO depicts exactly that. The duality is movement, change, opposites, no end, no beginning, the cosmic dance. Both form a circle, which represents non-duality. 

 
Maybe Seth meant that purpose can be found in the world of being (creation/becoming/transformation/action/duality), and that it can not be found in "not being" (non-duality). 
If that's the case, I guess I agree with him. ????

 

42 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

Everything has meaning and everything has purpose and there is none of it which is better or worse than the other.  And all of it is ultimately us anyway. To consider any of it as absurd is, in my mind, to then consider a portion of ourselves as absurd.  Which is absurd to me. 

Exactly....everything has a purpose. Everything you can name, imagine or dream of has a purpose. But what about what is beyond that? That which has no form, no time, no space, that which is beyond all comprehension. This is what I'm referring to when I say no purpose. 
We like to assume that our system (our world/the material) has a purpose, but then we automatically deduce that a bigger system which includes our smaller system, must also have purpose. This is debatable however. 

What I'm saying is: purpose is a product of duality and the never ending action of the yin/yang. The Tao incorporates the yin/yang, but is itself immovable and has no purpose. 

 

 

57 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

One of the reasons I've never delved into eastern religions is due to their idea that this worldly existence is somehow subpar, perhaps due to the pain which exists here, and something to suffer through (the irony) until we can finally find something called enlightenment in which suffer comes to an end, and in which we blend into oneness and, God forbid, lose our identity.  No thanks.

Yes, this idea is possible. But then it's the students interpretation that is faulty, not the teaching. Besides, the same happens in most other religions. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Tippaporn said:

"In your state of development you cannot easily understand the meaning of the word “purpose,” for to you the term itself implies an eventual rigidity, a goal with an end, a progression, literally, toward a nothingness that it would have to follow once a goal in those terms was achieved."

Isn't this what I said?

A goal with an end = time; progression = change/action = duality

towards a nothingness = non-duality

 

 

1 hour ago, Tippaporn said:

In other words, we're not trying to attain some state that, at worst, is a finished state.  As Seth has remarked on Heaven, it is an impossible state of existence and if there were such a thing as true death Heaven would be it.  For it represents a finished state in which there can be no more growth.  Yet growth is never ending.  It's eternal.  Whether that growth is in one direction or another to me all directions which growth takes are equal in their value and importance.

In our terms that translates to, say, the decision of a youth as to what he wants to become when he finishes school.  A doctor, lawyer, chimney sweeper . . . all represent growth and none is better or worse than the other.  All provide avenues for fulfillment.  (Although our cultural world would certainly make clear distinctions of better and worse based on remuneration.  )

Yes, I agree. When you speak about growth, you speak about duality....the yin and the yang. To the TAO, speaking of growth is meaningless. The TAO simply IS.

 

[Tippaporn]

On 5/24/2023 at 6:36 PM, save the frogs said:

I'm on team "intentionally created".

But that still doesn't answer how or why or what the purpose of any of it is or where anything is leading. 

And as I argued with my film analysis of Prometheus, I think we're not meant to know.

So that's why neither science nor religion has the answers. 

Not yet, anyway.

Just so you know, it was I that gave your post the     reaction.  Credit where credit is due.

"But that still doesn't answer how or why or what the purpose of any of it is or where anything is leading. "

The answers are out there.  One the one hand they're not simple and on the other hand they are very simple.  But they certainly aren't hidden, either.  You've looked at a few quotes from Seth and your effort seemed trained to be little more than to find something, anything about them which you could disagree with in order to declare it's all false.  To invalidate those ideas.  Rather, since the answers to your questions are there then it's up to you, and everyone, to do the work, to put in the effort, and satisfy your desire for knowledge and understanding.

 

On the issue of "not meant to know" it is as I stated in a post to Sunmaster.

"For there are no doubt a number of very practical considerations which account for our unawareness of the rest of us, our reincarnational selves, and our probable selves and other selves.  Full awareness would make it impossible to have the type of experience we intended."

Now I understand that that statement will not be entirely satisfying as an answer to your question.  There's obviously much that's left out.  But again, if you want further detail it's all there.  As much detail as you like or can ask for.  I can offer as much as I can.  As much as I have time and willingness for.  But I can't do it for everyone else.  That's not within my purview and even if it was I wouldn't.

Religion will not find the answers because they're too settled on their dogma.  Besides, they believe they already have all the answers.  There are no more answers to be found for religion.  Science will not find the answers for science has committed itself to investigate only the physical world.  The effects.  Since there's a subjective world as well, which they reject, they foolishly believe they can arrive at all the answers whilst working with only half of the data.

[save the frogs]

19 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

"For there are no doubt a number of very practical considerations which account for our unawareness of the rest of us, our reincarnational selves, and our probable selves and other selves.  Full awareness would make it impossible to have the type of experience we intended."

Now I understand that that statement will not be entirely satisfying as an answer to your question. 

it's not just that it's "not entirely satisfying". it's that I have no clue what it means. 

what's a probable self? are you sure that actually means anything?

 

it seems like you and i are trapped in an infinite loop, like hamsters on a wheel.

you give me quotes that mean nothing to me. 

and then we go round and round. 

and still ... i am dazed and confused.

 

 

Edited May 26, 2023 by save the frogs

[Tippaporn]

6 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

it's not just that it's "not entirely satisfying". it's that I have no clue what it means. 

what's a probable self?

it seems like you and i are trapped in an infinite loop, like hamsters on a wheel.

you give me quotes that mean nothing to me. 

and then we go round and round. 

and still ... i am clueless. 

Here's the dilemma in a nutshell.  Existence is too vast to explain in full with a quote, with a sentence, with a paragraph, with a book.  Or endless posts.  That much should be understood.

As best of an analogy I could think of it is very much like a picture puzzle.  You begin by picking up the first piece and examining it.  Of course that single puzzle piece, while it does contain information, is insufficient to arrive at the overall final picture.  So you search to find another puzzle piece directly related to the one in your hand.  And then another.  Generally, when putting a picture puzzle together you work not just on a single part of the puzzle.  You usually get stuck and move on to putting other pieces together that come from other portions of the picture.  Eventually you begin to see parts of the final picture more clearly and begin tying in the other partially completed portions.

So it is with arriving at a fuller explanation, or a fuller picture of who we are and our reality.  As anyone who has put a puzzle picture knows it requires patience.  And it is a fun endeavour which has a component of excitement as the picture becomes clearer and clearer.  Anyone who seeks knowledge and understanding should understand that patience is required.  Without patience a person will give up rather quickly.  But the component of excitement also exists in the search for knowledge and understanding.  The more one begins to understand the more they want to understand more.  There's a drive to complete the puzzle.

Also, when beginning a picture puzzle it is initially difficult as you have little to work with.  As the puzzle progresses it becomes easier and easier as the pieces fall together at an ever accelerated clip.  Towards the end you pick up remaining pieces and rather than staring at them to figure out where they go you need only glance at them and know exactly where they fit.

 

To answer your question as to what a probable self is and have it make any sense at all would require some basic understanding of who and what we are.  It would require a much broader concept of identity.  For our current concept of identity includes only what is reflected back to us in the mirror.  Of course there is much more than that.  Any understanding of what a probable self is hinges also on relinquishing the false notion that there exists only a single reality,  Our physical one.  For as long as one subscribes to the one world, one universe view then probable selves would not only appear nonsensical but an impossibility as well.

[Sunmaster]

31 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

it seems like you and i are trapped in an infinite loop, like hamsters on a wheel.

you give me quotes that mean nothing to me. 

and then we go round and round. 

and still ... i am dazed and confused.

That's what I mean when I say that imparting knowledge from the "top down" doesn't really work. A teacher (or just someone who has more knowledge about a specific subject) has to identify the level of the student (or anyone who doesn't have that specific knowledge yet) and guide him from that level onwards, feeding him bites that he can actually swallow.
What good will it do to teach quantum entanglement to a first year university student? 
 

@Tippaporn

A while back I asked you to give some practical examples of the Seth teachings. Things we can use right now to make our lives better. Things that won't leave us dazed and confused. ????
Got any succulent bites?

[Sunmaster]

4 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

As best of an analogy I could think of it is very much like a picture puzzle. 

Great analogy. 
The only difference is that when we usually start an actual puzzle, we are given a complete picture to follow, which makes it a lot easier and faster. In real life, we are given the pieces, but very rarely are we allowed to see what it should look like once finished. Furthermore, we don't get all the pieces at once. Most of the times, new pieces will only materialize once a section has been completed first.

[Tippaporn]

12 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

Great analogy. 
The only difference is that when we usually start an actual puzzle, we are given a complete picture to follow, which makes it a lot easier and faster. In real life, we are given the pieces, but very rarely are we allowed to see what it should look like once finished. Furthermore, we don't get all the pieces at once. Most of the times, new pieces will only materialize once a section has been completed first.

Now that's a very astute observation, Sunmaster.  Especially the part where, unlike a puzzle picture which has the completed picture on the box cover, we don't have a completed picture to follow.  Or really any picture.  A most excellent point!

Hey, that just adds to the challenge, right? 

[Tippaporn]

24 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

That's what I mean when I say that imparting knowledge from the "top down" doesn't really work. A teacher (or just someone who has more knowledge about a specific subject) has to identify the level of the student (or anyone who doesn't have that specific knowledge yet) and guide him from that level onwards, feeding him bites that he can actually swallow.
What good will it do to teach quantum entanglement to a first year university student? 
 

@Tippaporn

A while back I asked you to give some practical examples of the Seth teachings. Things we can use right now to make our lives better. Things that won't leave us dazed and confused. ????
Got any succulent bites?

Very true.  Seth has made mention of this important aspect of teaching as well.  You must first consider where the student is at.  Else it all goes over his head.  And just as any university subject matter, to advance to the next level in any subject there are prerequisites that must come before.  Knowledge is literally built up.

As for giving practical examples of Seth teachings which would improve one's life they are endless.  The sticking point, though, is that any practical recommendations that could be given may, and often do, require an understanding of basic principles before anyone even attempts to follow them, let alone find success with them.

 

For example, if I were to recommend choosing your thoughts with discrimination based on their beneficence to you, using your feelings as a guide in choosing thoughts, and yet one did not believe that thoughts create then my recommendation would be rather worthless, correct?  For most believe that thoughts have zero effects and nothing at all to do with one's experience.  One could suggest that one follow their thoughts and find the matches within their experience, and I have made this suggestion to certain posters before, there are few who are willing to expend even that minuscule amount of effort to prove it categorically to themselves.  The belief that thoughts have naught to do with experience is more than enough to quash any impulse to deliberately choose one's thoughts.  If thoughts produce nothing then it is the height of absurdity to pursue such a knowingly futile effort.

 

But for those who recognise the fact that thoughts are energy, that they are precisely the paints that create our living, three dimensional picture, then that recommendation would be practical and be followed.

The main problem with getting anyone to agree that thoughts create is that most lack even a basic understanding of who and what we are.  On top of that, most have an erroneous understanding.  Most believe, for instance, that they are powerless to effectuate their desired life.  Anyone understanding who we are understands that the reverse is true.  Again, I agree with Seth in that it is neigh on impossible to understand the world in which one finds themselves in without an understanding of who and what we are.  It all really must begin there for so much other understanding hinges upon it.  It is, indeed, a prerequisite.

[Sunmaster]

43 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

Now that's a very astute observation, Sunmaster.  Especially the part where, unlike a puzzle picture which has the completed picture on the box cover, we don't have a completed picture to follow.  Or really any picture.  A most excellent point!

Hey, that just adds to the challenge, right? 

Where is my drink?!? ????

[Tippaporn]

Just now, Sunmaster said:

Where is my drink?!? ????

ID first, please. 

[Sunmaster]

14 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

ID first, please. 

 

 

Edited May 26, 2023 by Sunmaster

[Tippaporn]

1 minute ago, Sunmaster said:

I just called to verify and no one answered.  Email bounced back.  Address doesn't exist.  Hey, whaddaya tryin' ta pull here??