21 hours ago, CMNightRider said:

Nature is full of quantifiable miracles.  The earth is the perfect distance from the sun to support life.  If we were any farther away from the sun, we would freeze.  If we were even slightly closer to the sun, we would burn up.  Does this sounds like something that happened on its own?  Of course not, it's obvious God created this home for us.  

This is an interesting point that is sometimes used even by so-called creditable scientists to support a religious belief in a Creator God or an Intelligent Designer. Even some scientists who broadly accept the theory of evolution will claim that the very first forms of life, such as micro-organisms that are thought to have arisen about 4 billion years ago, are so complex that it is unlikely (or unbelievable) they could automatically have formed by chance in a 'soupy sea' of various chemicals, and therefore it is more likely that a Creator God of some description would have at least started the process.

 

Such an argument might seem reasonable at first glance, but when we consider the vastness of the universe, the fact that our own galaxy, the Milky Way, has at least 100 billion stars, or suns, (and possibly as many as 400 billion) and that the universe as a whole, as far as we know, has an estimated 100 billion galaxies, and possibly a lot more, then it seems reasonable to estimate that the number of planets in the universe is in the trillions.

 

That at least one of those trillions of planets, and probably a lot more than one, has the right conditions for life to form spontaneously in a soupy sea, seems a reasonable possibility to me.

 

A good analogy would be the winning of a huge sum in a very large lottery through a random selection of one ticket out of several million. The chances of any specific or nominated individual winning is so small that the winner might think he has been favored by some God when he wins. However, the chances of someone (anyone) winning is very certain.
 

4 hours ago, Elad said:

Imagine if we evolved on a planet with a continuous blanket of cloud cover where only day and night was notable, no stars, moon or planets in the night sky, would religion be where it is today?  

That is everyday life for less evolved beings on this planet, just think of how invertebrated perceive the world.

I never met anyone who would rather be a worm or a sea cucumber.

Humans perception of reality is undoubtedly more refined than every other physical being on this planet.

4 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

I never met anyone who would rather be a worm or a sea cucumber.

I have sometimes considered what life must be like for God's greatest creation, the Onchocerca, and whether I would prefer to be one

Which God are you referring to

After all there ARE many to choose from

Pagan, Hindu, and the rest

Let the believers do their thing and I will continue down the road to ruin enjoying each step

12 minutes ago, ThaiBunny said:

I have sometimes considered what life must be like for God's greatest creation, the Onchocerca, and whether I would prefer to be one

That's an awful creature, but nature is not good or bad, as intelligent beings we have to accept it for what it is beautiful and terrible.

Some people can be worse than onchocerca ( i had to google it)

1 minute ago, mauGR1 said:

That's an awful creature, but nature is not good or bad, as intelligent beings we have to accept it for what it is beautiful and terrible.

Some people can be worse than onchocerca ( i had to google it)

My point is why a God would ever include such a creature in his "intelligent" design

4 minutes ago, ThaiBunny said:

My point is why a God would ever include such a creature in his "intelligent" design

And my point is that God, assuming there is a God, or chief creator, or intelligent design, is not there to compromise with your or my desires.

The science has just begun to uncover nature's countless mysteries, in the big picture it's fair to say that every being, from the little insects to the largest snake, from the fishes to the mammals, have a role to play.

 

You'll just have to make the best of it.

52 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

And my point is that God, assuming there is a God, or chief creator, or intelligent design, is not there to compromise with your or my desires.

The science has just begun to uncover nature's countless mysteries, in the big picture it's fair to say that every being, from the little insects to the largest snake, from the fishes to the mammals, have a role to play.

 

You'll just have to make the best of it.

My position is that such a God is morally bankrupt and worthy of my contempt, not my worship

I believe in this!???? And a cold beer!

Just now, ThaiBunny said:

My position is that such a God is morally bankrupt and worthy of my contempt, not my worship

That's entirely your choice, to fill your mind (or soul) with any thought you find appropriate.

Personally i think that a grateful attitude works better, even if it can happen that the reality can be disturbing.

6 minutes ago, ThaiBunny said:

My position is that such a God is morally bankrupt and worthy of my contempt, not my worship

Please let us know how that works out for you Bunny.

Just now, mauGR1 said:

That's entirely your choice, to fill your mind (or soul) with any thought you find appropriate.

Personally i think that a grateful attitude works better, even if it can happen that the reality can be disturbing.

Yes I'd be really grateful to get River Blindness. Even cancer might be a laugh

6 minutes ago, ThaiBunny said:

Yes I'd be really grateful to get River Blindness. Even cancer might be a laugh

You're not exactly fun at parties, are you ?

4 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

You're not exactly fun at parties, are you ?

I'm the guy who goes around asking all the vegan women if they swallow during oral sex

4 hours ago, ThaiBunny said:

My point is why a God would ever include such a creature in his "intelligent" design

I agree and there are infinitely more examples, but it's the believer's old and tired give-the-god-thing-credit for everything good, beautiful, important, nice and sweet argument. But they always deny the same for any of the horrific. It (god-thing-creator-of-everything) always gets a pass on bad stuff. 

 

It or they get no credit, nor blame, from me as there is absolutely zero evidence that such a thing exists.

 

God(s) are a crutch for ignorance, and fear...especially fear of facing mortality. 

1 hour ago, Skeptic7 said:

God(s) are a crutch for ignorance, and fear...especially fear of facing mortality. 

That's a part of their overall purpose, and mostly beneficial. Fear is not good.

 

However, there is perhaps a more significant purpose of religions, and that is the sense of power that they can bestow upon rulers, whether kings, priests or tribal elders.

 

The most powerful entity that the human mind can imagine would be a Creator God, that is, an entity or intelligent force which has created the entire universe. Imagine what power an individual human could have if he/she could persuade the other members of society that he/she could communicate with such a God.

 

An instinctual drive towards power over other creatures is a fundamental characteristic of all animals, including humans.
Even cuddly Koala Bears will fight other male bears to the death in order to mate with a female. A humble farmer will get some joy from a sense of power and control when he traps a fox or a rabbit which is damaging his produce. The soldier who is subjected to power from the officers and generals, gets his own sense of power when he successfully kills the enemy.

 

Power is a fundamental requirement in all organized societies. Convincing people that they will not escape punishment for their misdeeds, even if they temporarily escape police arrest in this life, could help to reduce the amount of crime, especially centuries ago when there was no organized police force.

No

8 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

That's a part of their overall purpose, and mostly beneficial. Fear is not good.

 

However, there is perhaps a more significant purpose of religions, and that is the sense of power that they can bestow upon rulers, whether kings, priests or tribal elders.

 

The most powerful entity that the human mind can imagine would be a Creator God, that is, an entity or intelligent force which has created the entire universe. Imagine what power an individual human could have if he/she could persuade the other members of society that he/she could communicate with such a God.

 

An instinctual drive towards power over other creatures is a fundamental characteristic of all animals, including humans.
Even cuddly Koala Bears will fight other male bears to the death in order to mate with a female. A humble farmer will get some joy from a sense of power and control when he traps a fox or a rabbit which is damaging his produce. The soldier who is subjected to power from the officers and generals, gets his own sense of power when he successfully kills the enemy.

 

Power is a fundamental requirement in all organized societies. Convincing people that they will not escape punishment for their misdeeds, even if they temporarily escape police arrest in this life, could help to reduce the amount of crime, especially centuries ago when there was no organized police force.

Very good post.

 

..and that urge to power and the institutionalizing of a central authoritarian structure often based on religion, intensified during the great agricultural revolution commencing 10,000 years ago in China,the Punjab and the Fertile Crescent.

 

Without such a contractual central authority (protection and negotiation with both God and man) life would have been "poore,nasty,brutal and shorte"-as Thomas Hobbes once put it.

13 hours ago, Odysseus123 said:

Very good post.

 

..and that urge to power and the institutionalizing of a central authoritarian structure often based on religion, intensified during the great agricultural revolution commencing 10,000 years ago in China,the Punjab and the Fertile Crescent.

 

Without such a contractual central authority (protection and negotiation with both God and man) life would have been "poore,nasty,brutal and shorte"-as Thomas Hobbes once put it.

 

Thanks. I'm glad at least someone agrees with me for a change. ????

44 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

 

Thanks. I'm glad at least someone agrees with me for a change. ????

There is a great book by author Peter Watson which explores some of these issues-including the development of organised religion-during the period between 15,000 BC and about AD 500.Most of what was put in place is with us yet..

 

'The Great Divide-History and Nature in the Old World and the New'

12 hours ago, Odysseus123 said:

There is a great book by author Peter Watson which explores some of these issues-including the development of organised religion-during the period between 15,000 BC and about AD 500.Most of what was put in place is with us yet..

 

'The Great Divide-History and Nature in the Old World and the New'

Thanks for the recommendation. I've searched for reviews of the book, and they are very impressive. I think I'll either buy the book or borrow it from the local library. Having the time to read it is the problem. I've got so many unread e-books on my Kindle. ????

On 4/14/2019 at 3:31 PM, CharlieH said:

No offence to those that do,  but for me, its just  "an invisible friend for adults".

could be,funny how you always pray to him when you,re at your lowest though.

18 minutes ago, kingdong said:

could be,funny how you always pray to him when you,re at your lowest though.

What an absolutely absurd thing to ASS-ume! Certainly can't speak for Charlie, though highly doubtful. However can assure u I don't. Never did, never will. May as well pray to the wall. At least the wall exists.

 

A single pair of hands DOING is infinitely more effective than the entire planet praying. 

CHRISTIANITY:

The popular belief that a celestial Jewish baby who is also his own father, born from a virgin mother,

died for three days so that he could ascend to heaven on a cloud and then make you live forever.

Only if you symbolically eat his flesh, drink his blood and telepathically tell him that you accept 

him as your lord and master.

He can then remove an evil force from your spiritual being that is present in all humanity

because an immoral woman made from a man's rib was hoodwinked by a talking reptile possessed 

by a malicious angel to secretly eat forbidden fruit from a magical tree....

 

SOUNDS PERFECTLY PLAUSIBLE....

15 minutes ago, cranki said:

CHRISTIANITY:

The popular belief that a celestial Jewish baby who is also his own father, born from a virgin mother,

died for three days so that he could ascend to heaven on a cloud and then make you live forever.

Only if you symbolically eat his flesh, drink his blood and telepathically tell him that you accept 

him as your lord and master.

He can then remove an evil force from your spiritual being that is present in all humanity

because an immoral woman made from a man's rib was hoodwinked by a talking reptile possessed 

by a malicious angel to secretly eat forbidden fruit from a magical tree....

 

SOUNDS PERFECTLY PLAUSIBLE....

Thanks for posting this. Was gonna post it 60 pages ago, but by then most of the believers had their own twist on the the ridiculous. 

 

Mine was slightly different...it said "rib-woman"! Hahaha! Great stuff! 

God must exist as people are always calling on him when they're in trouble or when they're at the height of sexual arousal "Oh god, oh my god oh oh ooh god , that was incredible"

3 hours ago, cranki said:

CHRISTIANITY:

The popular belief that a celestial Jewish baby who is also his own father, born from a virgin mother,

died for three days so that he could ascend to heaven on a cloud and then make you live forever.

Only if you symbolically eat his flesh, drink his blood and telepathically tell him that you accept 

him as your lord and master.

He can then remove an evil force from your spiritual being that is present in all humanity

because an immoral woman made from a man's rib was hoodwinked by a talking reptile possessed 

by a malicious angel to secretly eat forbidden fruit from a magical tree....

 

SOUNDS PERFECTLY PLAUSIBLE....

It shows that the bible does not tell history, It is telling parables for those that understand. There is no proof that Abraham, Moses, Jesus etc ever existed.  It was written by a couple of wise authors trying to advise people how to improve their lives.

Christ means natural intelligence and hope of glory. And the bible says Christ is in you. (That might be a more proper way of interpretation.)

He is not an invisible person outside. And what is in you? Your spirit, your consciousness. The bible say "be still and know I am God"  I am ... that is you, everybody is more than their name. 

And Jesus crucified is you - being crucified to this material life.

(interpretation)

 

At least makes more sense then taking the stories literally...

 

And by the way  ... do you know who you are? John Do? Is that all that you are? really ?

 

The bible was changed by politicians at the council of Nicea to  make up the story of christianity in order to have power over the people. Do you believe emperor Constantin really saw a cross in the sky telling him to win the battle if becoming a Christ believer? Another fairy tale. 

 

4 minutes ago, sweatalot said:

It shows that the bible does not tell history, It is telling parables for those that understand. Their is no proof that Abraham, Moses, Jesus etc ever existed. It was written by a couple of wise authors trying to advise people how to improve their lives. Christ means natural intelligence and hope of glory. And the bible says Christ

is in you. He is not an invisible person outside. And what is in you? Your spirit, your consciousness. The bible say "be still and know I am God"  I am ... that is you, everybody. 

And Jesus crucified is you - being crucified to this matrerial life.

 

At least makes more sense then taking the stories literally...

 

And by the way  ... do you know who you are? John Do? Is that all that you are? really ?

 

So...exactly who did write this so called "BIBLE" that so many hypocrites talk and preach about (not saying you are)

IMHO I think it's crap....

 

 

PS: No idea what reference your John Do is about.

14 minutes ago, cranki said:

So...exactly who did write this so called "BIBLE" that so many hypocrites talk and preach about (not saying you are)

IMHO I think it's crap....

 

 

PS: No idea what reference your John Do is about.

May be the authors were known ... but the library of Alexandria burnt down (suiting well the politicians and church managers at that time) making it impossible to find out now.

 

At least it was not God who wrote it sitting in the sky at his divine desk, Jesus sitting on his right side and the holy ghost to his left while busy forgiving our sins .... (sin another thing to keep the people in fear and easier to suppress)

 

9 hours ago, sweatalot said:

It shows that the bible does not tell history, It is telling parables for those that understand. There is no proof that Abraham, Moses, Jesus etc ever existed.  It was written by a couple of wise authors trying to advise people how to improve their lives.

Let's not forget that we can trace the origin of the written Bible as early as ancient languages as Hebrew, Aramaic etc were invented, around 1 or 2 Thousands years BC.

Obviously many stories of the Bible go back to a time when the "stories" were transmitted orally, as there were no written languages.

One has to doubt about the accuracy of such old stories, like the Noah's ark and the flood, but interestingly, other cultures as Maya, Aztecs, even the Vikings, mention a catastrophic flood in their "stories"

According to the ancient Hindu "stories" we are in the "Kali Yuga" or "era of destruction" which has roughly begun when the first written languages were invented.