Do you believe in God and why

[Sunmaster]

PART 6
 

THE EXPERIMENTAL INDUCTION OF RELIGIOUS-TYPE EXPERIENCES

JEAN HOUSTON AND ROBERT E. L. MASTERS

 

In the Altered States of Consciousness Induction Device, our subject-theologian entered quickly and deeply into what is presumably a trance state. He reported descending through darkness, then water, then fire, until he reached a vision of the Platonic forms. Speaking ecstatically, he declared that “It is as if my mind were united to the mind of God. I am expanding, expanding … and I can read secrets of the universe and glimpse the forms of things … Beautiful forms, mathematical forms, geometrical forms. They are all alive, colorful and brilliant. This is the Source of the Forms, the World of the Divine Ideas, the Creative Source. It is the Fons et origo.”

 

He continued his description, sighing, joyously weeping, moaning and sometimes writhing as if the experience were almost more than he was able to endure. Still he kept describing his experience:

“It is the unity unified, it is the experience of the Unity, the Nous, the Logos of the soul, as if all unified in me!” In his subsequent written account of this session, which lasted an hour and a half and throughout was similarly visionary and ecstatic, the subject wrote, in part: My experience of the world of forms was one of the two most profound and beautiful experiences of the session. The forms were luminescent—like mathematical or geometrical figures—but not abstract. They were spirit made concrete and were unbelievably dynamic, like the seeds of life. Their texture was crystal and they reflected the brilliant and glorious light of the sun. I felt that this was the world that Plato saw and that Augustine referred to as the rationes seminales. …

 

Then I experienced many sides of matter—as dark and consuming non-being, as the infinite multiplicity. Ultimately I saw matter grounded in God—as the infinite womb of forms …

 

Then I experienced the world of life—the infinite variety of living cells, the vast expanse of the night skies with millions of stars, the sands and the sea. I was asked what this might mean in my personal life, and I saw my home—all the plants and trees, my children and my wife and other persons whom I know. All formed a vast symphony of life—and I saw the various levels of life all flowing from the Source and back to the Source.

 

After that I witnessed the generation of Logos from the Ground—this was the deepest experience I have yet had—and I saw it as light emanating out of the abyss. And I felt that my mind shared in this great mystery—that I had touched the depths and secret of my own mind. … Then I had a long and extremely satisfying experience of the integral and emanating aspect of all creation as participating in the infinite life of the Source. And I was gradually restored to wakefulness by the instructions of the guide.

 

What are we to say of experiences like this, occurring in a modern laboratory setting, and of the experimenter who helps make them possible? Is the experimenter priest, shaman or scientist primarily? What may be his responsibilities? After having witnessed, first with psychedelic drugs and more recently under other conditions, the most intense and subjectively valid mystical unions and encounters with God in various types of transcendental experiences, we have often pondered especially our moral position. The experimenter must ask himself if the Presence of God, so intensely experienced by the subject, is delusion or reality—and if reality, what kind—or what? If God is truly present in some religious experiences, but not present in those that occur during our experiments, then we are assisting in the production of an inauthentic religious experience that nonetheless can powerfully and beneficially transform the deluded individual and awaken in him, or intensify, a dedicated spiritual life.

 

Similar questions arise with regard to the other varieties of profound religious-type experiences that we may induce or enable to occur. It is our feeling that these experiments and explorations are permissible given the experimenter’s open-mindedness, respect for the subject and the subject’s experience, and dedication to the pursuit of knowledge. Given these attitudes and aims, there seems no reason why the experimenter should not venture upon terrain he shares with traditional gurus of the East and spiritual directors of the West. If man comes equipped with a spiritual core that can be made conscious to the end of health and enrichment, then it should be desirable to join in the effort to study that core and to make it more readily available to consciousness.

 

If religious and mystical experiences are only regressive and nothing more than products of the activation of brain mechanisms and chemicals, then that harsh fact had best be made plain and adjustment made to it. We do shudder at the prospect, say, of implanted electrodes being used to trigger mystical experiences on the one hand, and to titillate various pleasure centers in the brain on the other. But should such a thing be possible, the brain researchers will discover it regardless of our own efforts. While remaining open to such a possibility, we must admit a bias in hoping that it does not occur. But, even if it did, what would be demonstrated is only the rather well-known fact that man is a psychoneuro-physiological being; and stimulating his “spiritual centers” by mechanical means would no more be a substitute for traditional religious experience than stimulating certain pleasure centers would be an adequate substitute for the union of two persons.

 

[mauGR1]

51 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

man comes equipped with a spiritual core that can be made conscious to the end of health and enrichment, then it should be desirable to join in the effort to study that core and to make it more readily available to consciousness.

 

If religious and mystical experiences are only regressive and nothing more than products of the activation of brain mechanisms and chemicals, then that harsh fact had best be made plain and adjustment made to it. We do shudder at the prospect, say, of implanted electrodes being used to trigger mystical experiences on the one hand, and to titillate various pleasure centers in the brain on the other. But should such a thing be possible, the brain researchers will discover it regardless of our own efforts. While remaining open to such a possibility, we must admit a bias in hoping that it does not occur. But, even if it did, what would be demonstrated is only the rather well-known fact that man is a psychoneuro-physiological being; and stimulating his “spiritual centers” by mechanical means would no more be a substitute for traditional religious experience than stimulating certain pleasure centers would be an adequate substitute for the union of two persons.

 

Well, tbh this explanation sounds a bit too complicated. 

I tried in vain to get some sense out of it.

I prefer simplicity, while avoiding being simplistic, i know, tough job. 

[Sunmaster]

11 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Well, tbh this explanation sounds a bit too complicated. 

I tried in vain to get some sense out of it.

I prefer simplicity, while avoiding being simplistic, i know, tough job. 

I like both. The disarming simplicity of Ramana Maharshi or Mother Meera, but also more intellectually challenging stuff like this research paper or the philosophical masterwork of Ken Wilber. They both shine different lights onto the same "object".

I think this paper will be more appealing for those scientifically minded people that are not satisfied with truths like "We are all One" or "The language of the Universe is Love".

Basically, they first experimented with LSD and observed how subjects experienced religious/mystical states. Then, once LSD was banned for the public and research has been stopped, they tried different methods to achieve altered states of consciousness (They build the ASCID).
While they don't believe (due to their research and own personal experiences) that these altered states are a simple matter of "the right electric impulse applied on the right synaptic junction in the brain", they say that EVEN IF it should turn out to be so, then it should still be explored further, because one way or another, the physiological, psychological and spiritual implications are too important not to be considered.

[mauGR1]

1 hour ago, Sunmaster said:

I like both. The disarming simplicity of Ramana Maharshi or Mother Meera, but also more intellectually challenging stuff like this research paper or the philosophical masterwork of Ken Wilber. They both shine different lights onto the same "object".

I think this paper will be more appealing for those scientifically minded people that are not satisfied with truths like "We are all One" or "The language of the Universe is Love".

Basically, they first experimented with LSD and observed how subjects experienced religious/mystical states. Then, once LSD was banned for the public and research has been stopped, they tried different methods to achieve altered states of consciousness (They build the ASCID).
While they don't believe (due to their research and own personal experiences) that these altered states are a simple matter of "the right electric impulse applied on the right synaptic junction in the brain", they say that EVEN IF it should turn out to be so, then it should still be explored further, because one way or another, the physiological, psychological and spiritual implications are too important not to be considered.

That's well put, thanks for taking the time. 

 

[Sunmaster]

Guys, there is a new documentary on Netflix called "Fantastic Fungi". It starts off as a very interesting look into the biology of mushrooms, but then soon starts to talk about the mind altering properties of "magic" mushrooms. 

Funny coincidence or synchronicity. 

They talk about the very same things I've been writing here for the past 2 years and the last 2 months in particular. 

 

Highly recommended. Check it out.

[Fat is a type of crazy]

On 8/3/2021 at 12:47 AM, Sunmaster said:

Guys, there is a new documentary on Netflix called "Fantastic Fungi". It starts off as a very interesting look into the biology of mushrooms, but then soon starts to talk about the mind altering properties of "magic" mushrooms. 

Funny coincidence or synchronicity. 

They talk about the very same things I've been writing here for the past 2 years and the last 2 months in particular. 

 

Highly recommended. Check it out.

That was interesting. Thanks.  

[mauGR1]

An interesting hypothesis,  which i have mentioned a few times, is that the 'gods' described in the old books, might have been visitors from other solar systems.

Of course this hypothesis has been quickly labelled as "pseudoscience " by those who think they know better, but history shows us that those who dare to think "outside of the box" are mercilessly ridiculed before being taken into consideration. 

One intriguing detail of this hypothesis, is that "homo sapiens" could be the result of DNA engineering.

This is not supposed to be an argument to prove or disprove a supreme intelligent design, but imho, a hypothesis worth considering. 

[thaibeachlovers]

On 8/7/2021 at 12:27 AM, mauGR1 said:

An interesting hypothesis,  which i have mentioned a few times, is that the 'gods' described in the old books, might have been visitors from other solar systems.

Of course this hypothesis has been quickly labelled as "pseudoscience " by those who think they know better, but history shows us that those who dare to think "outside of the box" are mercilessly ridiculed before being taken into consideration. 

One intriguing detail of this hypothesis, is that "homo sapiens" could be the result of DNA engineering.

This is not supposed to be an argument to prove or disprove a supreme intelligent design, but imho, a hypothesis worth considering. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariots_of_the_Gods%3F

 

Chariots of the Gods? Unsolved Mysteries of the Past (German: Erinnerungen an die Zukunft: Ungelöste Rätsel der Vergangenheit; in English, Memories of the Future: Unsolved Mysteries of the Past) is a book written in 1968 by Erich von Däniken and translated from the original German by Michael Heron. It involves the hypothesis that the technologies and religions of many ancient civilizations were given to them by ancient astronauts who were welcomed as gods.

[MrJ2U]

No.

[mauGR1]

39 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariots_of_the_Gods%3F

 

Chariots of the Gods? Unsolved Mysteries of the Past (German: Erinnerungen an die Zukunft: Ungelöste Rätsel der Vergangenheit; in English, Memories of the Future: Unsolved Mysteries of the Past) is a book written in 1968 by Erich von Däniken and translated from the original German by Michael Heron. It involves the hypothesis that the technologies and religions of many ancient civilizations were given to them by ancient astronauts who were welcomed as gods.

Yep, i was referring to this and other authors who wrote books on that hypothesis. 

Actually gods, or beings, coming from the sky are mentioned in many old stories from many parts of the world including the bible.

[VincentRJ]

5 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

Yep, i was referring to this and other authors who wrote books on that hypothesis. 

Actually gods, or beings, coming from the sky are mentioned in many old stories from many parts of the world including the bible.

Probably a result of consuming to many mushrooms and other psychedelic drugs. ????

[mauGR1]

18 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

Probably a result of consuming to many mushrooms and other psychedelic drugs. ????

Surely it could be, ancient people used to know herbs better than we do, on average. 

.. but before ridiculing and dismissing ancient scriptures as hallucinations, it would be fair to study them carefully.

 

Why the great flood is present in all the great civilizations of the world ?

Even the Welsh and the Irish,  I recently found out, have legends about flood survivors. 

.. but in your rather unscientific view,  they were all high on mushrooms ????

[Sparktrader]

Give me lotto numbers then i believe

[mauGR1]

8 minutes ago, Sparktrader said:

Give me lotto numbers then i believe

..So you want some money,  how original ????

[MrJ2U]

On 8/2/2021 at 9:03 AM, mauGR1 said:

Well, tbh this explanation sounds a bit too complicated. 

I tried in vain to get some sense out of it.

I prefer simplicity, while avoiding being simplistic, i know, tough job. 

I agree.

Too many words when a paragraph would have been enough.

[mauGR1]

7 minutes ago, MrJ2U said:

I agree.

Too many words when a paragraph would have been enough.

Well, it doesn't happen very often that someone here agrees with me.

Perhaps the end is near .. ????

[Sparktrader]

20 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

..So you want some money,  how original ????

Yep $10m

Then i believe!!!@@@

[Sunmaster]

15 minutes ago, MrJ2U said:

I agree.

Too many words when a paragraph would have been enough.

If I don't add scientific research, they cry to see scientific evidence.
If I add scientific research, they cry it's too long or complicated.
 
????

[Sparktrader]

9 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

If I don't add scientific research, they cry to see scientific evidence.
If I add scientific research, they cry it's too long or complicated.
 
????

$10m

[Sunmaster]

Just now, Sparktrader said:

$10m

thank you. I'll send you my bank details soon

[Sparktrader]

Just now, Sunmaster said:

thank you. I'll send you my bank details soon

Great i will pass it on to Nigeria

[Sunmaster]

3 minutes ago, Sparktrader said:

Great i will pass it on to Nigeria

No problem, my bank has room for their money too. ????

Edited August 8, 2021 by Sunmaster

[MrJ2U]

54 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

If I don't add scientific research, they cry to see scientific evidence.
If I add scientific research, they cry it's too long or complicated.
 
????

I enjoyed it, thanks.

 

I've just a very short attention span.

[VincentRJ]

12 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

Why the great flood is present in all the great civilizations of the world ?

Even the Welsh and the Irish,  I recently found out, have legends about flood survivors. 

.. but in your rather unscientific view,  they were all high on mushrooms ????

Don't be silly! Extreme weather events, whether floods, droughts, tsunamis, or hurricanes, have always occurred throughout the history of the planet. One doesn't need to be high on mushrooms to observe or experience such events.

 

However, being high on mushrooms could definitely help one to create imaginary stories about some miraculous God in the sky who used such extreme weather events to punish humans for their misbehaviour. ????

[thaibeachlovers]

3 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

Don't be silly! Extreme weather events, whether floods, droughts, tsunamis, or hurricanes, have always occurred throughout the history of the planet. One doesn't need to be high on mushrooms to observe or experience such events.

 

However, being high on mushrooms could definitely help one to create imaginary stories about some miraculous God in the sky who used such extreme weather events to punish humans for their misbehaviour. ????

God doesn't need to punish humans for their misbehaviour. We are punishing ourselves by destroying the environment and humanity will suffer for it ( even more than already ) IMO.

 

I've never used mushrooms or similar and I believe in God. You have to do better than that.

 

BTW, saying that God is in the sky makes me wonder if you are even discussing the same thing as the three of us, or off on some completely different subject, like religion?

[mauGR1]

24 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

Don't be silly! Extreme weather events, whether floods, droughts, tsunamis, or hurricanes, have always occurred throughout the history of the planet. One doesn't need to be high on mushrooms to observe or experience such events.

 

However, being high on mushrooms could definitely help one to create imaginary stories about some miraculous God in the sky who used such extreme weather events to punish humans for their misbehaviour. ????

Sorry, I don't know if it's intentional or not, but it seems that you are completely misunderstanding what I've been saying. 

Yes, natural disasters have always occurred, but the great flood which is described in the bible and other stories was something huge, which has no comparison in our written history. 

It just needs a shower of little asteroids to wipe off a civilization, and even change massively the geography of the planet. 

Perhaps unlikely to happen in our little lives, yet it can happen at any moment. 

If you want to think that it's impossible, yep, I'm ok with that ????

[mauGR1]

34 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

God doesn't need to punish humans for their misbehaviour. We are punishing ourselves by destroying the environment and humanity will suffer for it ( even more than

Very much truth in that, and i believe that the same dynamic (karma) happens on collective basis ( a country, an empire, a tribe or a family etc)... and of course on individual basis.

Following this train if thought one may become conscious of the fact that nothing happens by chance.

[canthai55]

[VincentRJ]

12 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

God doesn't need to punish humans for their misbehaviour. We are punishing ourselves by destroying the environment and humanity will suffer for it ( even more than already ) IMO.

I'm sure you've mentioned many times in this thread that you accept that God is unknowable, ineffable and indescribable. If I've got that right then surely it's obvious that you cannot know what the needs of God are, so why state what he doesn't need, as if you know?

 

"I've never used mushrooms or similar and I believe in God. You have to do better than that."

 

You seem to have misunderstood my post. I wrote, "However, being high on mushrooms could definitely help one to create imaginary stories about some miraculous God....."

 

I have never stated that hallucinatory effects from mushrooms are required for a belief in God.

 

"BTW, saying that God is in the sky makes me wonder if you are even discussing the same thing as the three of us, or off on some completely different subject, like religion?"

 

I'm discussing the possible causes of the fanciful stories found in many scriptural texts that imply that God, for example, is an entity that exists high up in the sky. Many famous writers and poets in the past seem to have been inspired when taking certain hallucinatory drugs, including alcohol and opiates.

 

Even Charles Dickens smoked opium. Here's a list of famous authors who used various drugs to increase their creativity.
https://drugabuse.com/blog/25-great-writers-who-battled-drug-addiction-and-alcoholism/

[mauGR1]

24 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

I'm discussing the possible causes of the fanciful stories found in many scriptural texts that imply that God, for example, is an entity that exists high up in the sky. Many famous writers and poets in the past seem to have been inspired when taking certain hallucinatory drugs, including alcohol and opiates.

Well, comparing alcohol, opiates, and mushrooms just show that you know nothing about what you're talking about.

Apparently you don't know much about holy books as well.

I heard that Buddha didn't rate nonsense very highly,  do you agree ?