Thai / Farang owed property & land with 30 year lease

[khunbaa]

Ok, i'm trying to get some information on the following. I have a Thai lady friend who was married to an English guy for 10 years, during that time they had bought a house and nice piece of land. The Chanote is in the Thai ladies name, however following there separation the English was clever and tricked her into signing a 30 year lease (which i can understand) with the verbal promise that he will take care of her and pay her rent each month. instead he had her kicked off the property and has not stuck to any agreement. It's now 15 years down the line and he's never paid any rent but lived there the whole time. 

 

She has never had any money for a lawyer and ultimately is a good women so didn't take things any further, she was basically willing to wait 30 years then take back the property. However, I've been friends with her for sometime and it's horrible to see her struggling for food when she own's this land and should at least be getting something.

I'm pretty sure she has all the right's in this situation? Recently the Ex husband has come forward with a buyer where he pays for all the lawyers on both side's and once she sign's over the land the money will be released. This just sounds like a trick, but if it is real i would at least like her to get 50% of the sale. I've advised her to go the land office and get a copy of the 30 lease agreement and any other paper work they have??

Then i guess go to a lawyer and see where she stands. If anyone has any comments they think could help then i would appreciate it. She is a good women and has lived on pretty much no income for the last 15 years doing low paid job's such as restaurant work and mini mart job's. Basically i want to make sure she doesn't get ripped and would like to know what her rights are regarding the 30 year lease. 

 

Thanks for your help...

 

 

[CharlieH]

Moved to Real Estate forum

[Kwasaki]

32 minutes ago, khunbaa said:

Recently the Ex husband has come forward with a buyer where he pays for all the lawyers on both side's and once she sign's over the land the money will be released.

From what I know I don't see how he got her kicked off the property don't sound right being in Thailand.

 

Anyhow as long as she see's to it that she keeps the money for sale of land and house fine if she wants to sell at whatever the price is.

She should still have the deeds and also bear in mine he cannot force her to sell.

 

If she sells the new owner will have a sitting tenant to get rid of if the 30 year lease is not cancelled by the sale. ????

 

She can only sign over the deeds to the land to another Thai person so he would or should not get nowt assuming his done what she told you.

 

 

Edited April 21, 2019 by Kwasaki

[khunbaa]

Thank's for the reply.

 

Yes at the time he had a good lawyer and managed to pay the police to remove her from the property, she was pretty heart broken and left for a few years to get her head straight, and over time she has just accepted it. So really she has all the right's? if i were to get a lawyer can we have him removed from the property of would the 30 year lease have to be run out. As i understand from your comment she could actually sell the property and the 30 year lease would be void? Like i said she is a good person and is fine with splitting the sale 50% 50%. I just don't want her to start signing papers then end up with nothing. 

[ukrules]

I'm pretty sure that the valid lease goes nowhere without his approval until the 30 years have lapsed.

 

Nobody will buy land where someone has a current lease for the next 15 years without a significant discount.

[observer90210]

His money, for him to benefit full if the couple breaks up. The Englishman was smart and did a good job to protect his interests.

 

The law is a scam in itself as the foreigners paying for the land and the lease should be able to own at least one small piece of the land where they build .... and pay with their life's savings.

Edited April 21, 2019 by observer90210

[khunbaa]

Yes i agree, he was only protecting his money, however he was in his 50 when they met she was in her 20's, pretty much lost the best years of her life, when they split he shouldn't get it all, after 10 years of marriage i think a 50/50 is fair. 

 

 

[blackcab]

3 hours ago, khunbaa said:

...during that time they had bought a house and nice piece of land...

 

When you say "they', whose money paid for the land? Was it 50/50, or did the husband use 100 per cent of his money?

 

The husband has a 30 year lease. When this expires he will have to vacate the land. The woman can sell the land at any point, but the lease will remain registered against the land until it expires or the ex husband formally agrees to its cancellation.

 

As has been stated, very few people would buy land they could do nothing with for 15 years unless they got a very large discount.

[Kwasaki]

2 hours ago, khunbaa said:

As i understand from your comment she could actually sell the property and the 30 year lease would be void? Like i said she is a good person and is fine with splitting the sale 50% 50%. I just don't want her to start signing papers then end up with nothing. 

Maybe the 30 year lease would be void if the land was sold then he would be vacating the house & land when sold I take it so it doesn't matter does it, unless he is trying to pull another fast one. 

Like you said she is a good person and it is fine with her splitting the sale 50% 50% and she cannot end up with nothing if she has a lawyer too and gets an agreement on unpaid rent to deduct from his 50%.

[blackcab]

2 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

Maybe the 30 year lease would be void if the land was sold then he would be vacating the house & land

 

The lease is vacant if he formally cancels it at the land office. The sale of the land has no effect on a registered lease.

[Delight]

 The Farang did that  which would be recommended by every farang who subscribes to this site.

The relationship has broken down . It seems that the ex is a man with no conscience.

Obviously we have not heard his side of the story.

He has not paid rent -however he did finance the whole scheme.

If the ex wishes to sell the house -he has to have her permission and signature.

That is her power.

She has to ensure that at least 50% of the money is with her prior to signing anything.

Maybe use an escrow account.

Suspect that the lease will have to be cancelled prior to the sale.  That is for him to fix.

I would say that she is in a very strong position -to get at least 50%

 

 

[Kwasaki]

1 hour ago, blackcab said:

 

The lease is vacant if he formally cancels it at the land office. The sale of the land has no effect on a registered lease.

Yeah always 2 sides to every story and there's more.

 

" Thai Supreme Court ruling 2297/1998 states that the lessor (landlord) does not have to be the owner of the property.

Therefore the Usufructuary can rent out the land.

Although in the event of death of the Usufructuary within the lease term, only the usufruct will be terminated but not the lease." 

[blackcab]

4 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

Yeah always 2 sides to every story and there's more.

 

" Thai Supreme Court ruling 2297/1998 states that the lessor (landlord) does not have to be the owner of the property.

Therefore the Usufructuary can rent out the land.

Although in the event of death of the Usufructuary within the lease term, only the usufruct will be terminated but not the lease." 

 

In this case the OP stated the encumbrance was a lease. That's quite different to a usufruct.

[khunbaa]

I really appreciate the comments, i'm sort of on both sides, i understand the Ex husband for protecting his investment and i understand the Thai lady. Anyway i will get a real estate lawyer and do everything through them, if they both walk away with 50% each i think good for both sides. However, i really do feel like he's just trying to pull a fast one.

 

Thanks for all your help. 

[Kwasaki]

3 minutes ago, blackcab said:

 

In this case the OP stated the encumbrance was a lease. That's quite different to a usufruct.

Always thought they were one of the same thing, if not a usufruct and just a lease then I would say it's better for OP's friend.

[KhaoYai]

27 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

Always thought they were one of the same thing, if not a usufruct and just a lease then I would say it's better for OP's friend.

Yes, he needs to clarify if its a lease or a Usufruct. They are not the same, a Usufruct is far stronger than a lease and gives the beneficiary the rights to full enjoyment of the property - basically, its akin to owning it.

[KhaoYai]

6 hours ago, khunbaa said:

Ok, i'm trying to get some information on the following. I have a Thai lady friend who was married to an English guy for 10 years, during that time they had bought a house and nice piece of land. The Chanote is in the Thai ladies name, however following there separation the English was clever and tricked her into signing a 30 year lease (which i can understand) with the verbal promise that he will take care of her and pay her rent each month.

You wouldn't of course, you'd simply walk away from land you'd almost certainly paid for? You wouldn't try to get some value from your purchase?

 

Your advice to the lady regarding the proposed sale of the property is bang on. Get a copy of the lease/Usufruct (which is it?) and the Chanotte and see a lawyer.  To be honest, she's waited 15 years, I'd wait another 15 and get full value.  By the way, if it turns out that the 'lease' is actually a Usufruct and its not registered on the Chanotte - the Usufruct is worthless and she can evict him.........don't know why I'm telling you this........555

[baansgr]

Two sides to every storey, as is common here the women lie and steal so we dont know why they divorced. She's young, why cant she get a job, study for qualifications, what about her family, Thais supposedly help family members. Who paid for the property...the man is old and hasn't a chance to recoup his life savings that he very possibly paid for the land. What was in the divorce agreement. If he bought before they were married she shouldn't really get anything, if after then 50%...thats Thai law so she cant complain.

[The Man Who Sold the World]

khunbaa -

 

You are asking for legal advice concerning Thailands laws on an English speaking forums website.

 

Concerning your friends specific situation - ONLY a Thailand licensed Attorney (and one who does specialize in real estate), can offer advisement of how to proceed. And, said Attorney will need to review all the legal documents concerning this case to provide you with a valid opinion and a game plan to achieve your/her goals. 

 

Call some English speaking Thai Attorneys and request a consultation (the consult should be gratis). However, expect them to require a retainer to pursue the legal documents in this case and expect to pay for a game plan to recover/sell/evict, or, whatever the conclusion of this situation may be.

 

Good Luck.   

[Kwasaki]

9 hours ago, baansgr said:

Two sides to every story, as is common here the women lie and steal so we dont know why they divorced. She's young, why cant she get a job, study for qualifications, what about her family, Thais supposedly help family members. Who paid for the property...the man is old and hasn't a chance to recoup his life savings that he very possibly paid for the land. What was in the divorce agreement. If he bought before they were married she shouldn't really get anything, if after then 50%...thats Thai law so she cant complain.

It's been 15 years and 15 more years to go.

She is not complaining just telling OP her side of the ex-marriage story.

Her Ex wants to sell " to who " so I would say that's a good thing for her, but caution if his past alleged deeds were all in his favour.

The fact her ex is saying he will pay for everything on both party's sides means to me she must ensure she gets her own " Thailand licensed Attorney ".

Maybe that's where OP can help if he wants to.

Of course she is entitled to 50%. 

Edited April 22, 2019 by Kwasaki

[watcharacters]

13 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

Yeah always 2 sides to every story and there's more.

 

I think you meant three sides to every story.      You forgot the truth side.  ????

[MikeN]

If it is a lease and not a usufruct, then surely he has broken the terms of the lease by not paying any rent ? In that case she could get him evicted by a court order. Yes, that would involve time and money ...... and assuming they did have a written lease not just a handshake deal.

 If it’s a usufruct he is on more solid ground, but as for selling and going 50/50 on the proceeds surely the land is in her name, and the house will be joint property if they built after marriage.

[PoorSucker]

 

Thailand Civil and Commercial Code Book IV:

Marriage TITLE I Chapter II Section 1469

"Any agreement concluded between husband and wife during marriage may be avoided by either of them at any time during marriage or within one year from the day of dissolution of marriage; provided that the right of third persons acting in good faith are not affected thereby."

 

 

 

There you go, trying to secure your property with a lease or usufruct with your wife. 

[Mister T]

Not sure if it helps, I built a house on wifes land many years ago. I took out a 30 year registered lease and paid 10 years of tax to the lands office. My lawyer told me that if we ever divorced, I would have one year to sell up and receive 50% of the proceeds.

[xtrnuno41]

understand the guy, it is his money.

However made a verbal promise to pay her.

That is a hot issue , as he of course didnt pay at all.

Tough a verbal promise is also legally (Thailand?), however to proof it? 

DOnt know about breaking lease contract, thats for a Thai lawyer to see.

IF they both agree, ok, its done. 

WIth selling, she can brings in to transfer the money (50%) to her account.

Include in selling contract. Still, of course a Thai lawyer in real estate specialized, is needed, to make it work right. !

As i said i can understand the guy, but to break the promise, is low in human standards. SHe was young then and believed the f****. 

I hope she learned form that and never do again, always black and white and signed !!

Sadly otherwise, she has to wait another 15 years. ut guess the alien wants to get out. SO thats a strong point again to work with, as he wants out.

But then never believe his blue eyes again and make harsh commitments in selling  the property, on paper, black and white, signed !! Legally working !!

 

Also be aware what is the selling price ! HE could sell on paper for little money and get some money afterwards after sell from buyer.

For instance sell for 2 million on paper and asking 3 million arranged with buyer , not included for the contract papers, but 1 million in his pocket not to be divided then. It is fraude, but this guy could act like that.

[Ulic]

So, he paid for the house, "tricked" her into giving him a thirty-year lease. Half over now. I would advise her to wait another 15 years and get the whole amount. I would not trust the guy. He will sell and take the whole amount. He failed to live up to his end of the deal, youth, and beauty for security for her. In 15 years it will be hers. Patience.  

[justin case]

if the mean got the right to live there, usufruct, he owns the woman NOTHING AT ALL

[NotYourBusiness]

On 4/21/2019 at 4:57 PM, khunbaa said:

I'm pretty sure she has all the right's in this situation? Recently the Ex husband has come forward with a buyer where he pays for all the lawyers on both side's and once she sign's over the land the money will be released.

And what will she do if the money is NOT released? Recommend money in her bank BEFORE signing anything. Otherwise, no deal.

Edited April 22, 2019 by NotYourBusiness

[khunPer]

On 4/21/2019 at 11:57 AM, khunbaa said:

if i were to get a lawyer can we have him removed from the property of would the 30 year lease have to be run out. As i understand from your comment she could actually sell the property and the 30 year lease would be void?

As said in your opening post, the words in the leasing agreement is important. For a 30-year registration tax should be paid for the full term when registering the lease, and if the contract states, that the full lease sum for example has been prepaid – or fulfilled – there are no further payments due.

 

To my knowledge; if there are monthly – or other periodic – lease payments due, accordingly to the lease agreement, which have not been paid, she can sue the lessee through the court system, however beginning with a lawyer sending a letter claiming unpaid fees.

 

Yes, she can sell the land, but a registered lease will be valid till end of term, if not terminated by the lessee. Some lease agreements includes that the lessee can sell or transfer the rights to third party.

 

Your can find an English translation of the Civil and Commercial Code 'rent of property' here,

and

further explanation about lease agreements and terms "Thai Real Estate Lease Leasehold and Rent laws" here.

????

[SoonOh]

"Thai lady friend who was married to an English guy for 10 years, during that time they had bought a house and nice piece of land."

 

An English man, is just protecting his investment. 

All Farangs Should get free advice from friendly Thai-English speaking lawyer before doing anything in Thailand 

 

Thai girls should learn that there is nothing free in this life.