Selling UK Property

[SteveK]

Hi guys,

 

I would like some advice. I have been overseeing the sale of a property in the UK, but am now back to square one, waiting for another offer. I don't want to hang around in the UK for months on end in an empty house waiting for the sale to complete. Because of Brexit, things are painfully slow and I don't have a great deal to do here.

 

My question is: can you forsee any pitfalls with me coming back to Thailand now and dealing with the sale remotely?

 

Is that possible? I looked at giving power of attorney to a friend, but it's not cheap and I'm not sure I trust anyone enough to do it.

 

Has anyone done this kind of thing? It's so miserable and expensive in the UK, I can feel my mood sinking as the days go by.

 

[beau thai]

I gave a PoA to my lawyer in uk, specific to the house sale. All went smoothly and I escaped to the sun. The PoA cost was insignificant within the overall house sale costs, and improved my stare of mind to hightail from Uk weather!

[madmitch]

I gave power of attorney to my father. If you have someone you know and trust and that will do it as a friend or relative it's easy and I don't remember it being expensive; I had my solicitor draw up a document (template so not expensive) or I'm sure you could find something online.

 

PS I wish I hadn't sold my UK property!!!

Edited April 23, 2019 by madmitch

[roo860]

'It's so miserable and expensive'

Where is this place in the UK?

Please dont say everywhere.

Hi guys,

 

I would like some advice. I have been overseeing the sale of a property in the UK, but am now back to square one, waiting for another offer. I don't want to hang around in the UK for months on end in an empty house waiting for the sale to complete. Because of Brexit, things are painfully slow and I don't have a great deal to do here.

 

My question is: can you forsee any pitfalls with me coming back to Thailand now and dealing with the sale remotely?

 

Is that possible? I looked at giving power of attorney to a friend, but it's not cheap and I'm not sure I trust anyone enough to do it.

 

Has anyone done this kind of thing? It's so miserable and expensive in the UK, I can feel my mood sinking as the days go by.

 

 

Sent from my SM-G920F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

 

[Saltire]

I rent my UK property through a rental agency, have done for the last 8 years. They have been marvellous, never had a bad tenant, pay me (less their fee) on the dot every month, and when needed, find me a new tenant within week.

 

They also have a sales division and when and if I sell, it will be a quick phone call to leave viewings and sale to them. Their fee for this is not extortionate.

 

 

[RichardColeman]

Very strongly recommend not selling it IF it is your property and IF it is your only property. 

 

There are so many stories of people going to Thailand, ending up with no money - mostly bad planning and even badder women - and now near potless with nowhere to return to. 

 

I had been living in Thailand previously on a retirement visa by only renting out my house - working fine until I ended up with a bad tenant - who luckily for me (not him) actually died thereby saving me the issues of evicting him. Just taken me away from Thailand and my family for 6 month to repair and repaint it !

 

Sure I could sell it and never worry about money in Thailand again - probably. If I sold it it would be about 310k £ - about 30 years worth at a grand a month spending. BUT, why bother - the rent on the house would be 1000 a month minimum anyhow ! (I now get a small pension on top for anyone worrying that is not enough)

 

But Thailand is NOT the UK, we are only guests - unless they change the law. We are at their biding and at the mercy of there immigration laws.

 

No do not risk it if its your only home.

 

 

 

[bignbad]

I just sold this year through the estate agent (full package) and solicitor, had to visit to sort out final clearance, but all now OK.

I put the funds in an investment account to give me income and if I need to return I can buy again, I did not want to buy to let as the worry and potential problems are not worth it!

[helloagain]

When the agent knows where you are you will be offered more. Please be here 2 or 3 years first. 

[Chongalulu]

19 hours ago, Saltire said:

I rent my UK property through a rental agency, have done for the last 8 years. They have been marvellous, never had a bad tenant, pay me (less their fee) on the dot every month, and when needed, find me a new tenant within week.

 

They also have a sales division and when and if I sell, it will be a quick phone call to leave viewings and sale to them. Their fee for this is not extortionate.

 

 

Be aware that as it’s not been your main residence for over 18 months ( shortly to be reduced to 9) you will be liable for CGT on disposal (Capital gains tax) for any profit on a proportional basis related to time you didn’t live there. The 40k lettings allowance is also being scrapped.Obviously this is greater on a higher Value house and you do have about 12k CGT allowance. Look into it. I’ve only been here 4.5 years but because of the gain on my house i would lose tens of thousands in tax if I sold. You are still liable for that proportion even if you move back in and subsequently sell. 

Yoir only escape  is when you die (that tax liability dies with you) !

[Chicken George]

Let the property first... Power of eterny was done for free my my solicitor. It has to be specific for that property and property named in it.

 

[Saltire]

1 hour ago, nchuckle said:

Be aware that as it’s not been your main residence for over 18 months ( shortly to be reduced to 9) you will be liable for CGT on disposal (Capital gains tax) for any profit on a proportional basis related to time you didn’t live there. The 40k lettings allowance is also being scrapped.Obviously this is greater on a higher Value house and you do have about 12k CGT allowance. Look into it. I’ve only been here 4.5 years but because of the gain on my house i would lose tens of thousands in tax if I sold. You are still liable for that proportion even if you move back in and subsequently sell. 

Yoir only escape  is when you die (that tax liability dies with you) !

Hi I am pretty sure CGT won't apply to me, and if it does it will be a small amount. Even after buying it 8 years ago it is unlikely to make a profit, so no 'gain'. It is also my only property, but I have never actually lived in it. You are correct but I think more relevant to expensive properties in expensive areas of the UK, not for a 1 bedroom flat in Scotland. 

[Jaxxper]

From a logistics point of view with the selling estate agent and your solicitor on board there is no reason why it can't be sold remotely. If you feel the need give your solicitor POA for that specific house sale and just return to paradise. People buy/sell houses remotely all the time these days. 

I think the discussion about CGT is a moot point because your question was about pitfalls of selling remotely , not incurring tax liabilities etc.

Anyway , wish you luck with the sale.

[chilly07]

Sold mine remotely after renting it out remotely using trusted agents lawyers builder and accountant by email without POA only final contract via tracked EMS

[NightSky]

Most things can be done remotely it just costs a little more or takes more time.

 

I kept my UK property and I’ve since purchased more buy to let. The best time to buy is when everyone else is selling up. 

 

As for taxes, you pay tax wherever you earn (or at least it is your legal obligation to do so) and the UK is a low risk investment compared to some other countries.

[4MyEgo]

21 hours ago, RichardColeman said:

Very strongly recommend not selling it IF it is your property and IF it is your only property. 

 

There are so many stories of people going to Thailand, ending up with no money - mostly bad planning and even badder women - and now near potless with nowhere to return to. 

 

I had been living in Thailand previously on a retirement visa by only renting out my house - working fine until I ended up with a bad tenant - who luckily for me (not him) actually died thereby saving me the issues of evicting him. Just taken me away from Thailand and my family for 6 month to repair and repaint it !

 

Sure I could sell it and never worry about money in Thailand again - probably. If I sold it it would be about 310k £ - about 30 years worth at a grand a month spending. BUT, why bother - the rent on the house would be 1000 a month minimum anyhow ! (I now get a small pension on top for anyone worrying that is not enough)

 

But Thailand is NOT the UK, we are only guests - unless they change the law. We are at their biding and at the mercy of there immigration laws.

 

No do not risk it if its your only home.

 

 

 

I would think he would have to seriously think about what tax he would be paying after the rent he receives, i.e. tax as a non resident or tax as a resident, take away agents ongoing commission, advertising costs when reletting, reletting fees, water rates, council rates, land tax if any, house insurance, tenant insurance, maintenance, vacancy factors, and the big one, future capital gains tax, if any.

 

I am not from the UK, although sold my place in Sydney, because when I did the math, it was 32.5% non resident tax from the very 1st $ I would receive, i.e. no threshold as soon as your residency changes after 183 days away, add all the other costs that I mentioned above and it really works out to a 50/50 split with the government.

 

The above said, I sold it in May 2016, the market was up since late 2012 and paused when I sold it, only to climb a little further in 2017 and then drop 20%-25% since then, so if I held onto it, I would have thrown a minimum $200k down the gurgler, so timing was everything, as for capital gains tax, there wouldn't have been any if I sold now with the market dropping.

 

Now with the 50/50 split it would obviously be more if he held it and it increased over time, not sure of the UK system, but you are right about blokes pi$$ing it up against the wall, that said, it all boils down to the individual, i.e. whether he has control or not.

 

In my situation, I looked at ways of keeping my money safe back home, so I put half in the bank and only pay 10% tax on the interest earned and the other 50% in the stock market buying fully franked stocks, e.g. stocks that pay the tax before they pay you, so as a non-resident, you don't have to pay tax on fully franked stocks, and there is no capital gains tax payable on any profits, now on average doing this myself I am earning 12% tax free on my investment of $500k suffice to say in Thai baht that gives me 112,500 (currently) per month at today's exchange rate with me only requiring half that amount to live on per month, now if I held onto my property I would be getting 26,812 baht per month, a return of 1.43% per annum, so for me it was a no brainer.

 

The above said, stocks go up, stocks go down and since October the market has been $hit with the Trump/China trade war, but things are starting to look good now, and the dividends are always the same, blue chip stocks with a small mix of new upcoming sticks gives it a healthy mix.

 

On the other hand, know of a bloke who sold his place in the UK of late and invested $400k pounds off shore for a return of between 6%-8% for eight years, although there is a 2% entry fee plus quarterly charges, so there are options, property at the moment isn't looking good anywhere and that saying bricks and mortar is a safe bet or real estate is "real" hence the name, is only good if your living in it in my opinion because of all the taxes that one has to pay, and in retirement, you need an income, not taxes.

 

Each to their own though ????

 

[4MyEgo]

1 hour ago, Jaxxper said:

From a logistics point of view with the selling estate agent and your solicitor on board there is no reason why it can't be sold remotely. If you feel the need give your solicitor POA for that specific house sale and just return to paradise. People buy/sell houses remotely all the time these days. 

I think the discussion about CGT is a moot point because your question was about pitfalls of selling remotely , not incurring tax liabilities etc.

Anyway , wish you luck with the sale.

One can be blindsided if they are not up to speed on CGT, so any advice of taxes whether asked for or not, could stop one selling or excelling one selling, so I fail to see your point as advice should be covered from all angles regardless if asked or not.

[RAZZELL]

Just in the process of doing this myself...have flown back to the UK and will see how easy it is or isn't.

 

So far I've learnt the obvious - Estate agents are clueless, there are was a 18% variation in the estimates.

 

RAZZ

 

 

[NanLaew]

On 4/23/2019 at 6:48 AM, SteveK said:

Hi guys,

 

I would like some advice. I have been overseeing the sale of a property in the UK, but am now back to square one, waiting for another offer. I don't want to hang around in the UK for months on end in an empty house waiting for the sale to complete. Because of Brexit, things are painfully slow and I don't have a great deal to do here.

 

My question is: can you forsee any pitfalls with me coming back to Thailand now and dealing with the sale remotely?

 

Is that possible? I looked at giving power of attorney to a friend, but it's not cheap and I'm not sure I trust anyone enough to do it.

 

Has anyone done this kind of thing? It's so miserable and expensive in the UK, I can feel my mood sinking as the days go by.

Yes, leave it with an expensive lawyer, shonky agent and untrustworthy friend and get your butt over here pronto. Then you can watch the gild fall of the Thai lily, become miserable at the unexpected costs of long term 'living the dream' in LOS, enjoy life less and less, get buggered about by banks and immigration, watch your savings dwindle and lament having sold a home in your homeland while counting the satangs in your 3000 baht/month windowless fan room.

 

Unless you already live here of course.

[NoshowJones]

23 hours ago, RichardColeman said:

Very strongly recommend not selling it IF it is your property and IF it is your only property. 

 

There are so many stories of people going to Thailand, ending up with no money - mostly bad planning and even badder women - and now near potless with nowhere to return to. 

 

I had been living in Thailand previously on a retirement visa by only renting out my house - working fine until I ended up with a bad tenant - who luckily for me (not him) actually died thereby saving me the issues of evicting him. Just taken me away from Thailand and my family for 6 month to repair and repaint it !

 

Sure I could sell it and never worry about money in Thailand again - probably. If I sold it it would be about 310k £ - about 30 years worth at a grand a month spending. BUT, why bother - the rent on the house would be 1000 a month minimum anyhow ! (I now get a small pension on top for anyone worrying that is not enough)

 

But Thailand is NOT the UK, we are only guests - unless they change the law. We are at their biding and at the mercy of there immigration laws.

 

No do not risk it if its your only home.

 

 

 

Well I certainly would not treat any "guest" in my home the way the Thai government treat us expats and longterm stayers.

[4MyEgo]

23 minutes ago, RAZZELL said:

Just in the process of doing this myself...have flown back to the UK and will see how easy it is or isn't.

 

So far I've learnt the obvious - Estate agents are clueless, there are was a 18% variation in the estimates.

 

RAZZ

 

 

Do your own research if you haven't already done so, alternatively you can pay a few quid and get a qualified opinion from a RICS qualified property Valuer who would be at arm's length, i.e. not competing for your business to sell the property as Valuers value properties day in day out for the banks, agents sell properties day in day out for their vendors.

 

That said, when signing the agreement, give them one month, as they mainly preload their agreements to show 3-6 months.

 

If your not happy how they are performing after a month, you go elsewhere, if your happy how things are going, continue the agreement as an ongoing agreement.

 

Good luck 

[4MyEgo]

12 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

Yes, leave it with an expensive lawyer, shonky agent and untrustworthy friend and get your butt over here pronto. Then you can watch the gild fall of the Thai lily, become miserable at the unexpected costs of long term 'living the dream' in LOS, enjoy life less and less, get buggered about by banks and immigration, watch your savings dwindle and lament having sold a home in your homeland while counting the satangs in your 3000 baht/month windowless fan room.

 

Unless you already live here of course.

Alternatively sell it and invest your money tax free with you being able to make life choices as opposed to listening to those with negative failed thoughts, or losers in life. 

[Baerboxer]

I just sold a UK house. Completed last Thursday. It had been rented out since early 2009. I used the same company, the Estate Agent side advertised and sold the house, quick and efficient; they offer a separate conveyancing side with lawyers, again very efficient and kept me informed via email, on-line portal, and phone calls; and their Rentals department who I'd been dealing with handled the tenants leaving etc.

 

The costs were reasonable, and their were advantages in using all one firm albeit different divisions in different locations.

 

I had to provide notarized proof of ID and address as in often the case with expats living overseas. I was able to download the contract and transfer deed and sign them here, a neighbor witnessed the latter for me. They checked scanned copies and then I couriered the originals to their UK office - picked up Wednesday pm delivered Friday am for ThB 1,162 including POD.

 

As long as you have lawyers/estate agents that a communicative and even better have a good on-line portal for document and information transfer then it's pretty easy. There were copious forms to fill in on-line but a few hours and all was done.

 

Be careful with the tax. I used a good tax accountant in the UK. But I believe there are several choices that can be made in the way a potential CGT liability can be calculated from which you can choose. You need someone who understands this and can calculate which choice is best for you. You will need to get a valuation of the property as at 06.04.2015. My estate agent provided this with supporting rationale.

 

Good luck. Hope you get a buyer and no long chain soon.

[topt]

1 hour ago, 4MyEgo said:

I am earning 12% tax free on my investment of $500k

Forgive my ignorance of the Oz stock market (presumably where you are invested) but what did you buy that gives an income average of 12%. It is difficult to get that from risky HY bonds?

 

As an example I think the average for the UK is about 4.3%. If you only bought the highest yielding I doubt you could get more than 7% and that would be high risk. 

[Baerboxer]

44 minutes ago, RAZZELL said:

Just in the process of doing this myself...have flown back to the UK and will see how easy it is or isn't.

 

So far I've learnt the obvious - Estate agents are clueless, there are was a 18% variation in the estimates.

 

RAZZ

 

 

 

I did it from here. Easy. No need to fly to and fro specifically.

 

Yes, there is a big variation. Zoopla always seem to really overvalue house prices too. 

 

At the end of the day, you can talk to agents, email, phone etc and see who sounds the most informed. I dealt with a very experienced sales lady and also the branch partner (national chain) who both new what they were talking about; both lived and worked in the area for long time. 

 

Location, the current state of the property, which types of property are moving etc etc are all factors. Plus what is similar on the market; what it's going for; and how quick you want to sell. 

 

I've had higher value agents before who price high. You don't get the interest and people won't make an offer if they think their offer is so much lower.  Equally, there are the low value agents who just want to sell it quick and get their commission. Just be careful, do some research, and choose on quality as well as price.

[smudger1951]

On 4/23/2019 at 7:52 AM, RichardColeman said:

Very strongly recommend not selling it IF it is your property and IF it is your only property. 

 

There are so many stories of people going to Thailand, ending up with no money - mostly bad planning and even badder women - and now near potless with nowhere to return to. 

 

I had been living in Thailand previously on a retirement visa by only renting out my house - working fine until I ended up with a bad tenant - who luckily for me (not him) actually died thereby saving me the issues of evicting him. Just taken me away from Thailand and my family for 6 month to repair and repaint it !

 

Sure I could sell it and never worry about money in Thailand again - probably. If I sold it it would be about 310k £ - about 30 years worth at a grand a month spending. BUT, why bother - the rent on the house would be 1000 a month minimum anyhow ! (I now get a small pension on top for anyone worrying that is not enough)

 

But Thailand is NOT the UK, we are only guests - unless they change the law. We are at their biding and at the mercy of there immigration laws.

 

No do not risk it if its your only home.

 

 

 

I can't add to that. I've hung onto property in the Uk throughout. I hanker to be back in Thailand but I will only ever be a guest.

[SteveK]

I will be selling for a similar price to what I paid so CGT won't be an issue.

 

Absolutely not renting it out, have heard so many stories about both bad tenants and agencies, I would never take the chance. I know one guy who fully refurbed a property in the midlands, tenants only paid the rent for the first few months. Unfortunately UK laws give most of the power to the tenant, even if they are defaulting on the rent. In his case it took best part of a year to get them out by which time the house was wrecked, kids had drawn on the walls, carpets were ruined, new tiles in bathroom and kitchen smashed etc., he must have lost over £20,000 in the ordeal. He was almost in tears over it.

 

I met a guy on my last trip to Laos who had rented a house out in the UK via an agent, he was a welder. Whilst in Thailand he was getting phone calls from neighbours to complain about the tenants, the agency starting charging stupid things like £49 to replace a light-bulb and £300 to tidy the garden, and wouldn't respond to his emails, he had to go back in the end to sort it out.

 

House prices are still high in the UK, seems a reasonable time to sell if you can find a buyer - Brexit is putting many people off due to the uncertainty.

[SteveK]

2 minutes ago, Benroon said:

Agree 100% with that - I would be taking the direct approach to tenants like that and worry about the law later.

 

One TV programme I remember had someone not pay the rent for THREE YEARS and when the camera crew asked him why not his reply was why should I !!

 

The owner then changed the locks on the house while the tenant was out in sheer frustration and a UK court ordered the owner to change them back again or provide the tenant with the new keys, then to rub it in awarded the tenant (who hadn't paid any rent for three years remember) costs !! Not for me !

Yes, tenants hold all the cards when renting in the UK, and many know it so take the p!ss. Combine that with a dodgy agent and you being on the other side of the planet, that's definitely a situation I don't want to be in.

 

Taking a direct approach could see you arrested. Once the tenant is in the property, you're on the back foot, and the courts take months to reach verdicts in some cases. And quite often the agency charges huge fees for a "background check", but then just pocket the money. This happened to me about 20 years ago, agent charged £300 per tenant for a reference check, after we moved in spoke to my reference - surprise, surprise, nobody had contacted him. It was a 5 bed room HMO so the agency pocketed £1500 for absolutely nothing.

[4MyEgo]

4 hours ago, topt said:

Forgive my ignorance of the Oz stock market (presumably where you are invested) but what did you buy that gives an income average of 12%. It is difficult to get that from risky HY bonds?

 

As an example I think the average for the UK is about 4.3%. If you only bought the highest yielding I doubt you could get more than 7% and that would be high risk. 

Apologise, that is a mixed bag of dividends and sales of stocks put together and worked out overall, e.g. I am getting for example 6% from some of the banks and other shares ranging from 3%-4%-5%, others less and others 0%, and when I tally the returns and the what the sale of some stocks have returned me, I average 1% per month nett, might not be the right way to do it, but it gives me a clear picture on what I am getting on my investment.

 

Hope that clears it up.

[topt]

1 hour ago, Benroon said:

One TV programme I remember had someone not pay the rent for THREE YEARS and when the camera crew asked him why not his reply was why should I !!

I would question why the landlord did not take action as soon as he stopped paying or at least after the first month?

If you have all your ducks in a row (as a landlord) it can still take months as mentioned by another poster but nowhere near 3 years.

[SteveK]

1 hour ago, topt said:

I would question why the landlord did not take action as soon as he stopped paying or at least after the first month?

If you have all your ducks in a row (as a landlord) it can still take months as mentioned by another poster but nowhere near 3 years.

What can the landlord do? If he lets himself into the property or changes the locks, he can be arrested, even if the tenant has never paid a penny. If he keeps trying to go around to the house, or to find the tenant at their place of work, he can be arrested for harassment.

 

All a landlord can do is send a formal demand for the arrears with the threat of legal action. After they don't respond, then you can apply to the court to obtain possession of your property (section 8 I think), that takes months, costs money, and if the tenant appears at the hearing and defends their case for whatever spurious reason, you will probably need another court hearing. They can make something up like the house has no hot water, has a problem with mould or pests etc.

 

And if the tenant responds to your initial letter, saying "sorry I am behind with the payments, I've got a bonus coming from work in 2-3 months so just hold on and I'll pay you the arrears as a lump sum" - so the landlord gives them a chance before spending money on legal proceedings, but the money never arrives.

 

In both cases, many, many months will have passed, during which time the tenant will not be paying the rent, council tax and possibly bills as well, and they could even have sold any items of value such as washing machine, fridge etc or vandalised the property because they feel they have been mistreated by the landlord.

 

The landlord can spend thousands on legal proceedings to recover his losses, but they will never see a penny in most cases because often the tenant doesn't have any money or has simply left the country. The landlord has no choice but to suck it up and chalk it up to experience. For older couples who have invested their life savings in a buy-to-let property, this can be a complete and utter disaster - and as mentioned many tenants are very aware of their rights in the internet age, so go for as long as they can without paying a penny.

 

In the UK there are programmes on TV about these kinds of problems. There have been cases where tenants have lied about having a miscarriage and even being diagnosed with cancer to get the landlord to leave them alone for several months. The tenants have so much power, and if the landlord fails to complete one step of the eviction process precisely as he should, it goes back to the start and they have to send out the rent demands again.

 

With many family homes in London going for £1500 a month or even more, a years lost rent, combined with the legal costs and inevitable repair bill, it can be an excruciating amount of money to lose, especially for someone who is retired and was banking on earning £18000 in rent, but instead they have had to pay out £40000 or even more, a swing of £58000 just because they trusted a dodgy tenant.

Edited April 24, 2019 by SteveK