Anger over Brexit sparks new grassroots drive for Scottish independence

[RuamRudy]

4 minutes ago, sanemax said:

You havent named anything that you would like to be different , different to what it is now

From the list you provided , which names "Broadcasting , Defense , Immigration , Equal opportunities" among other things .

  An independent Scotland would have the power to change those things , what things would you change ?

   You would like a Scottish government to make its own rules , which rules would you change ?

What a peculiar question. Obviously, decisions would be taken that specifically address the Scottish dimension of each of these areas, much in the same way that every other country makes decisions to suit its own circumstances. 

 

I could give you a rundown of my perspective on each issue but that is not the point as my perspective towards each is coloured by my political leanings, not my desire for self-determination. 

 

[RickBradford]

1 hour ago, evadgib said:

.. we replace FPTP with PR ..

Absolutely not.

 

If you do that, you're voting for a party, not a person. They choose the MPs, not you.

 

You end up with a parliament (even more) full of career politicians who have no experience of the real world.

[malagateddy]

What a peculiar question. Obviously, decisions would be taken that specifically address the Scottish dimension of each of these areas, much in the same way that every other country makes decisions to suit its own circumstances. 
 
I could give you a rundown of my perspective on each issue but that is not the point as my perspective towards each is coloured by my political leanings, not my desire for self-determination. 
 

R/r

What would the currency be??
Who would be the bank of last resort??

Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[RuamRudy]

43 minutes ago, malagateddy said:

R/r

What would the currency be??
Who would be the bank of last resort??

Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

I am not sufficiently knowledgable to say with confidence what the best option is, Teddy, but thankfully I will not be tasked with making that decision. 

[aright]

51 minutes ago, malagateddy said:

R/r

What would the currency be??
Who would be the bank of last resort??

Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

When Lord Barnett developed the Barnett formula I don't think he or anyone else thought it would last for 35 years. Currently as a result of the formula Scotland gets 19% more for public spending than England, which of course produces controversy. An extra £1,623 per head, is given to Scotland compared to England. He is dead now but was alive at the last Scottish referendum when he said "It is unfair and should be stopped, it is a mistake. This way is terrible and can never be sustainable, it is a national embarrassment and personally embarrassing to me as well. "

I have always felt the Barnett Formula should be reformed but it might be too late if Scotland is determined to be independent, perhaps we could help by phasing out the Barnett formula over the next 3-5 years so they can not only enjoy personal independence but financial independence as well.

 

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

The attached graphic shows those powers that are devolved and those that are reserved. There is no reason to suspect that those currently residing in Westminster would be transferred to Brussels upon independence from the UK and ascension to the EU. 

 

 

Sorry, I should have been clear. I was wondering about the power relative to the EU and how that is interpreted, factored and weighted?

[evadgib]

1 hour ago, RickBradford said:

Absolutely not.

 

If you do that, you're voting for a party, not a person. They choose the MPs, not you.

 

You end up with a parliament (even more) full of career politicians who have no experience of the real world.

It has yet to be tried and cannot possibly be worse than the system it will replace.

[StreetCowboy]

1 hour ago, evadgib said:

It has yet to be tried and cannot possibly be worse than the system it will replace.

That’s quite a challenge, but I am sure  our politicians could easily demonstrate the folly of your faith, probably at the first opportunity.  

[RuamRudy]

2 hours ago, aright said:

When Lord Barnett developed the Barnett formula I don't think he or anyone else thought it would last for 35 years. Currently as a result of the formula Scotland gets 19% more for public spending than England, which of course produces controversy. An extra £1,623 per head, is given to Scotland compared to England. He is dead now but was alive at the last Scottish referendum when he said "It is unfair and should be stopped, it is a mistake. This way is terrible and can never be sustainable, it is a national embarrassment and personally embarrassing to me as well. "

I have always felt the Barnett Formula should be reformed but it might be too late if Scotland is determined to be independent, perhaps we could help by phasing out the Barnett formula over the next 3-5 years so they can not only enjoy personal independence but financial independence as well.

 

I believe that the Scottish government has previously requested full fiscal autonomy but this was rejected by Westminster. I will try to find further details.

[aright]

13 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

I believe that the Scottish government has previously requested full fiscal autonomy but this was rejected by Westminster. I will try to find further details.

You might be right; I can only recall a manifesto pledge to cancel Barnett and replace it with a needs based approach.

[AlexRich]

If there is a "no deal" exit then I'll be willing Scotland and Northern Ireland on independence/reunification and a return to the EU family of nations. The break up of the UK would be a fitting end to the Brexit mess.  

Edited May 28, 2019 by AlexRich

[RuamRudy]

2 hours ago, nauseus said:

Sorry, I should have been clear. I was wondering about the power relative to the EU and how that is interpreted, factored and weighted?

I am by no means an expert but this site seems to have a pretty good write-up of what is exclusive to the EU and what is not. With the exception of the CAP and Fishing Policy, which I know get certain small sectors of the country very exercised, I see nothing particularly controversial in respect to that which they assume exclusive competence. 

 

So, in answer to what I think you were asking, the graphic I posted previously is intended to be symbolic rather than absolute. 

 

 

In What Areas Can the European Union Legislate?

 

[RuamRudy]

11 minutes ago, aright said:

You might be right; I can only recall a manifesto pledge to cancel Barnett and replace it with a needs based approach.

Here we go, from June 2015:

 

UK Government rejects SNP call for full fiscal autonomy

[sanemax]

30 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

If there is a "no deal" exit then I'll be willing Scotland and Northern Ireland on independence/reunification and a return to the EU family of nations. The break up of the UK would be a fitting end to the Brexit mess.  

It would b e a good opportunity to end the Ireland "problem" once and for all .

If the North wants unification and as long as the South agrees , theres no reason as to why it cannot go ahead 

[RuamRudy]

Scottish government publishes independence referendum bill

“Throughout the Brexit process, Scotland has been treated with contempt by Westminster, and our efforts to find compromise and protect the interests of the people of Scotland, who voted overwhelmingly to remain in the EU, have been ignored.”

 

The SNP leader said: “We will seek agreement to a transfer of power at an appropriate point to enable an independence referendum that is beyond challenge to be held later in this parliament. It is essential the UK government recognises that it would be a democratic outrage if it seeks to block such a referendum. Indeed, any such stance would, in my view, prove to be utterly unsustainable.”

[aright]

33 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Scottish government publishes independence referendum bill

“Throughout the Brexit process, Scotland has been treated with contempt by Westminster, and our efforts to find compromise and protect the interests of the people of Scotland, who voted overwhelmingly to remain in the EU, have been ignored.”

 

The SNP leader said: “We will seek agreement to a transfer of power at an appropriate point to enable an independence referendum that is beyond challenge to be held later in this parliament. It is essential the UK government recognises that it would be a democratic outrage if it seeks to block such a referendum. Indeed, any such stance would, in my view, prove to be utterly unsustainable.”

Since 2015 the SNP haven't been treated particularly well by the electorate either.

They got 50 per cent in 2015, they got 44 per cent in 2016, they got 37 per cent in 2017, they got 37 per cent in the Euros and all my SNP Scottish friends told me how well they had done.. 

37% is not a govern alone figure. In a period when the 2 main parties are in total disarray, I would hardly call their voting history momentum.

Is it one of your requirements that Nicola explain to you her financial argument, her chosen currency and how she is going to finance a central Bank or are you happy to have the referendum then worry about the details later a la Brexit?

 

[RuamRudy]

11 hours ago, aright said:

Since 2015 the SNP haven't been treated particularly well by the electorate either.

They got 50 per cent in 2015, they got 44 per cent in 2016, they got 37 per cent in 2017, they got 37 per cent in the Euros and all my SNP Scottish friends told me how well they had done.. 

37% is not a govern alone figure. In a period when the 2 main parties are in total disarray, I would hardly call their voting history momentum.

Is it one of your requirements that Nicola explain to you her financial argument, her chosen currency and how she is going to finance a central Bank or are you happy to have the referendum then worry about the details later a la Brexit?

 

The financial argument is clear - what has never been provided is a cogent explanation of why Scotland is not financially viable as an independent country. Can you offer one?

[aright]

12 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

The financial argument is clear - what has never been provided is a cogent explanation of why Scotland is not financially viable as an independent country. Can you offer one?

I have not seen the financial argument perhaps you can provide an independent link. All I know regarding my Scottish friends and anecdotally is Scotland seems to be more in love with the concept of Independence rather than the arithmetic.

As far as Scotland not being financially viable, as the devils advocate I can only offer the following

 

 

[nauseus]

21 minutes ago, aright said:

I have not seen the financial argument perhaps you can provide an independent link. All I know regarding my Scottish friends and anecdotally is Scotland seems to be more in love with the concept of Independence rather than the arithmetic.

As far as Scotland not being financially viable, as the devils advocate I can only offer the following

 

 

Oh look! Luxembourg is doing so well! Mr. Juncker must be proud. 

[tebee]

Reasons to leave UK....

 

 

[RuamRudy]

 

 

 

2

11 hours ago, aright said:

I have not seen the financial argument perhaps you can provide an independent link. All I know regarding my Scottish friends and anecdotally is Scotland seems to be more in love with the concept of Independence rather than the arithmetic.

As far as Scotland not being financially viable, as the devils advocate I can only offer the following

 

 

How about this from the FT:

 

If its geographic share of UK oil and gas output is taken into account, Scotland’s GDP per head is bigger than that of France. Even excluding the North Sea’s hydrocarbon bounty, per capita GDP is higher than that of Italy. Oil, whisky and a broad range of manufactured goods mean an independent Scotland would be one of the world’s top 35 exporters.

An independent Scotland could also expect to start with healthier state finances than the rest of the UK. 

[RuamRudy]

 

 

 

2

11 hours ago, aright said:

I have not seen the financial argument perhaps you can provide an independent link. All I know regarding my Scottish friends and anecdotally is Scotland seems to be more in love with the concept of Independence rather than the arithmetic.

As far as Scotland not being financially viable, as the devils advocate I can only offer the following

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry - I hit 'enter' a bit too early but for some reason cannot edit my last post. So I will continue...

 

This is from the Independent:

 

How black gold was hijacked: North sea oil and the betrayal of Scotland

 

"An independent Scotland’s budget surpluses as a result of the oil boom, wrote Professor McCrone, would be so large as to be ‘embarrassing’.
Scotland’s currency ‘would become the hardest in Europe, with the exception perhaps of the Norwegian Kronor.’ From being poorer than their southern neighbours, Scots would quite possibly become richer. Scotland would be in a position to lend heavily to England and ‘this situation could last for a very long time into the future."

In short, the oil would put the British boot, after centuries of resentment, firmly on the foot standing north of the border.
Within days of its receipt at Westminster in 1974, Professor McCrone’s document was judged as incendiary and classified as secret. It would be sat upon for the next thirty years.”

 

This is commentary from 'The Wee Blue Book':

 

But instead of that huge surplus, Scotland is part of a UK with a massive £1.4 trillion debt - our population share of the debt is approximately £118 billion.

In short, membership of the UK for the last 32 years has left Scotland anywhere from £180 billion to £250 billion worse off than it would have been as an independent country. Thanks to Westminster we’re massively in debt, where we should have had money in the bank.

 

On average, UK spending is around £1,200 higher per person in Scotland than in the UK as a whole. But on average Scotland sends £1,700 more per person to the UK in taxes. We only get back around 70% of the extra money we send to London. The other 30% is kept by Westminster and spent in England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

 

 

 

[RuamRudy]

Scotland is being shafted by dodgy data from Westminster

 

"...the Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland (GERS)  report has always contained substantial numbers of estimates when, with the expenditure of some effort and some cash, much better data could have been collected. But, without as yet a proper statistical agency, and without Revenue Scotland ( which is the branch of HM Revenue & Customs that runs tax in Scotland) even being able, as yet, to identify who is actually Scottish resident, let alone have any idea how much VAT is really collecting the country, that process of estimation which has always, in my opinion, produced data of dubious quality, continues, but now at real cost of the Scottish people."

[RuamRudy]

Private Eye gets it.

 

 

[malagateddy]

Private Eye gets it.
 
 

Lets hope that sturgeon will not IGNORE 2 important questions.

1.. if scotland went independant..what would be the currency??
2..who would be the bank of last resort??

Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[aright]

On ‎5‎/‎31‎/‎2019 at 6:02 AM, RuamRudy said:

Sorry - I hit 'enter' a bit too early but for some reason cannot edit my last post. So I will continue...

 

This is from the Independent:

 

How black gold was hijacked: North sea oil and the betrayal of Scotland

 

"An independent Scotland’s budget surpluses as a result of the oil boom, wrote Professor McCrone, would be so large as to be ‘embarrassing’.
Scotland’s currency ‘would become the hardest in Europe, with the exception perhaps of the Norwegian Kronor.’ From being poorer than their southern neighbours, Scots would quite possibly become richer. Scotland would be in a position to lend heavily to England and ‘this situation could last for a very long time into the future."

In short, the oil would put the British boot, after centuries of resentment, firmly on the foot standing north of the border.
Within days of its receipt at Westminster in 1974, Professor McCrone’s document was judged as incendiary and classified as secret. It would be sat upon for the next thirty years.”

 

This is commentary from 'The Wee Blue Book':

 

But instead of that huge surplus, Scotland is part of a UK with a massive £1.4 trillion debt - our population share of the debt is approximately £118 billion.

In short, membership of the UK for the last 32 years has left Scotland anywhere from £180 billion to £250 billion worse off than it would have been as an independent country. Thanks to Westminster we’re massively in debt, where we should have had money in the bank.

 

On average, UK spending is around £1,200 higher per person in Scotland than in the UK as a whole. But on average Scotland sends £1,700 more per person to the UK in taxes. We only get back around 70% of the extra money we send to London. The other 30% is kept by Westminster and spent in England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

 

 

 

I am in Europe at the moment so don't have the time for  a comprehensive reply but should point out there can be a world of difference between an "Independent" link and an independent link, as for the Wee Blue Book...…………………. 

[RuamRudy]

29 minutes ago, aright said:

I am in Europe at the moment so don't have the time for  a comprehensive reply but should point out there can be a world of difference between an "Independent" link and an independent link, as for the Wee Blue Book...…………………. 

Haste ye back and expound! 

 

[RuamRudy]

39 minutes ago, malagateddy said:

Lets hope that sturgeon will not IGNORE 2 important questions.

1.. if scotland went independant..what would be the currency??
2..who would be the bank of last resort??

Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

All in good time, my friend. As the donkeys who have led us into this Brexit humiliation have demonstrated so well, fail to plan, plan to fail!

[evadgib]

44 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

All in good time, my friend. As the donkeys who have led us into this Brexit humiliation have demonstrated so well, fail to plan, plan to fail!

Natalie McGarry: Former SNP MP jailed for embezzlement

[billd766]

7 minutes ago, evadgib said:

Natalie McGarry: Former SNP MP jailed for embezzlement

Interesting link. Thank you.

 

quote from the link. "

Women for Independence said McGarry had embezzled donations from members of the public that had been intended to be used in the campaign for independence.

A statement issued by the group said: "For many, these donations were a real sacrifice".

The statement added: "We had no influence on the sentencing diet and recognise that we were not the only party injured by her actions.

"We respect the sheriff's decision given his comments on the seriousness of the matter. We are frustrated however that there are not more alternatives to prison available for sheriffs to consider and we will continue to campaign on this issue."

 

I wonder how the Women for Independence group would have felt if it was a man involved and not a woman politician?