Workers seek Bt400 minimum wage and price controls across country: poll

[NotYourBusiness]

1 hour ago, mommysboy said:

I don't need a video to tell me what is in front of my nose.  I operate on reality.

More reality. Not intending to cause a microaggression by conflicting with your worldview:

 

https://www.theepochtimes.com/why-minimum-wage-laws-are-cruel_2821178.html

 

"For decades, New Zealand had a well-developed system of charity-run “sheltered workshops.” Thousands of intellectually handicapped New Zealanders, young and old, went to work every day in the local workshop. There, they did low-skilled assembly work for a low, but not insignificant, wage. These workers didn’t make a lot, but they developed skills, discipline, and confidence. They got out of the house to socialize with their friends. They earned enough to buy clothes and records, and to go out to the movies or to the occasional restaurant. They gave their parents and caregivers a little “down time.”

 

Along came the unions, demanding that all the workers be paid the adult minimum wage, regardless of the value they were producing. Faced with bankruptcy, the workshops were all forced to close, and everyone lost their jobs. The individuals lost the self-esteem that comes from honest work; they lost their incomes and much of their social life, and any chance of rising even a little on the income ladder. Most of them became a greater burden to the government and their parents."

 

And on and on.

[NotYourBusiness]

Another cause for real concern:

 

https://www.theepochtimes.com/former-mcdonalds-ceo-says-a-15-minimum-wage-will-give-jobs-to-robots_2076250.html

 

It is  big mistake to judge a policy by its intentions, rather than its results. Minimum wage laws probably start out with good intentions, but the results are highly negative for the people intended to be helped. Minimum wage laws do NOT result in instant prosperity for everyone, no matter how they are sold to the gullible public.

[mommysboy]

17 minutes ago, NotYourBusiness said:

Another cause for real concern:

 

https://www.theepochtimes.com/former-mcdonalds-ceo-says-a-15-minimum-wage-will-give-jobs-to-robots_2076250.html

 

It is  big mistake to judge a policy by its intentions, rather than its results. Minimum wage laws probably start out with good intentions, but the results are highly negative for the people intended to be helped. Minimum wage laws do NOT result in instant prosperity for everyone, no matter how they are sold to the gullible public.

 

It's really more about whether the economy is working isn't it?  Or whether a business is operating efficiently?

 

If a business can not pay a wage that allows someone to live even at poverty level, then you have to question what is going on, isn't that right?

 

One of the lessons I learned from the old man is that you can't get a quart out of a pint pot- yet that is exactly how economies are run these days.

 

 

[NotYourBusiness]

1 hour ago, mommysboy said:

 

It's really more about whether the economy is working isn't it?  Or whether a business is operating efficiently?

 

If a business can not pay a wage that allows someone to live even at poverty level, then you have to question what is going on, isn't that right?

 

One of the lessons I learned from the old man is that you can't get a quart out of a pint pot- yet that is exactly how economies are run these days.

 

 

No, that is totally wrong and addressed at great length and in exceptional style in the video in post #3. Have a look see.

[djayz]

4 hours ago, mommysboy said:

Assumes that the economy is working well- it isn't, and businesses are efficient, they're often mired in debt.  So, workers are asked to be ever more 'efficient' to make up for a system that doesn't work, and are blamed when things so wrong.

So you're saying highly profitable businesses are not efficient and are mired in debt?

If workers want more dosh, they should have something better to offer.

[aqua4]

If the push for minimum wages becomes a reality then yes Thailand will have to kiss goodbye certain industries which employ loads of Burmese in Thailand in any event. Like any other economy these industries move along much like many jobs moving from China to Vietnam. Thailand will more likely than not shed jobs to Burma next door with wage increases. Thailand is suppose to have shifted to a service and knowledge economy (high-tech manufacturing) by now but still has loads of low-end and mid range manufacturing which should be moving next door. 

Edited May 1, 2019 by aqua4

[ocddave]

Quote

Workers seek Bt400 minimum wage and price controls across country: poll

Well that was good for a laugh, talk about clueless.

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, NotYourBusiness said:

No, that is totally wrong and addressed at great length and in exceptional style in the video in post #3. Have a look see.

The issues I raised are merely mentioned- the overall assumption is the market is ok/good, and no mention is made whether the employer is in fact the one operating inefficiently.  It is just assumed that profit is connected to worker efficiency.  The employer for example may only be able to pay his workers a certain sum because he is struggling to service debt.  

 

But I do agree that a minimum wage is unlikely to be the answer.  We really need to ask why so many people are facing poverty even though they are in employment-at the very least it raises a red flag about the economy as a whole. 

[mommysboy]

44 minutes ago, djayz said:

So you're saying highly profitable businesses are not efficient and are mired in debt?

If workers want more dosh, they should have something better to offer.

No, you are saying that.

 

However, obviously some companies are highly profitable, and it is likely these are paying better. But if a company is making big profits, but still paying its workforce a pittance than that is exploitation, because clearly the workforce is doing well.

Edited May 1, 2019 by mommysboy

[Sir Dude]

Countries like Thailand and China are starting to mature regarding their labour markets and they are slowly becoming not value for money in lots of ways ... when the tipping point comes then it will be cheaper for these large companies to relocate to the next place that has cheap labour, like Africa/South America or wherever that will give them a sweet deal. Demanding higher wages without increases in productivity whilst also saying that things shouldn't increase in price is fantasy land.

[mommysboy]

5 minutes ago, Sir Dude said:

Countries like Thailand and China are starting to mature regarding their labour markets and they are slowly becoming not value for money in lots of ways ... when the tipping point comes then it will be cheaper for these large companies to relocate to the next place that has cheap labour, like Africa/South America or wherever that will give them a sweet deal. Demanding higher wages without increases in productivity whilst also saying that things shouldn't increase in price is fantasy land.

Yes but these people, and there many millions of them, are saying that they can't afford to live.  I suppose little money is better than no money.  But the poverty trap is just that- things have a habit of getting worse.  These people aren't being greedy you know.

[Sir Dude]

20 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Yes but these people, and there many millions of them, are saying that they can't afford to live.  I suppose little money is better than no money.  But the poverty trap is just that- things have a habit of getting worse.  These people aren't being greedy you know.

That true, but China has seen the writing is on the wall and is trying it's best to re-align it's economy to be internally consumer based plus delivering some innovation rather than exporting etc. Thailand has more issues on this as it's reliant on tourism and exports (innovation is a moot point really) and a transition here will be much more destructive plus the elites don't really want it as it will diminish their position/power ... and might not survive it ultimately. I guess this is why they are chasing the tourist dollar so much as it compensates for the problems elsewhere. But this will end up being a problem as you can't be a one-trick pony all the time as it make you vulnerable, especially with an overpriced currency (for whatever reason). The Chinese realise that if they don't sort it out then their people will revolt as there is so many of them ... don't think the generals care here.

[djayz]

36 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

No, you are saying that.

 

However, obviously some companies are highly profitable, and it is likely these are paying better. But if a company is making big profits, but still paying its workforce a pittance than that is exploitation, because clearly the workforce is doing well.

No, I said no such thing. Earlier you stated the following: "and businesses are efficient, they're often mired in debt." 

 

 

 

[seminomadic]

11 hours ago, NotYourBusiness said:

Anyone wanting to get an education on minimum wage should watch this video. Peter fields ALL the normal and reasonable questions presented (morals, poverty, supporting a family, etc.) by the host with some very common sense answers. Of course, once a socialist, always a socialist, so I don't think this will change anyone's mind. But very hard to argue with logic he presents.

 

We must realize that raising the minimum wage does NOT guarantee prosperity for everyone. If it did then we could just raise the minimum wage to ONE MILLION baht per day and everyone would be rich! What it DOES guarantee is that jobs worth less than the minimum wage will GO UNDONE. And that hurts the very people the minimum wage is intended to help. Outstanding conservative and free market commentary on the subject:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6LtyFTEdis

Bravo with the link. "Once a socialist, always a socialist." Correct. Let me add: virtue signalers gon' virtue signal.

[mommysboy]

42 minutes ago, djayz said:

No, I said no such thing. Earlier you stated the following: "and businesses are efficient, they're often mired in debt." 

 

 

 

No that's wrong, but let's not have a tit for tat.

 

For me, it's really not about the desirability of a minimum wage, but rather about the issue of people working 40 hours a week or more, but seemingly being unable to make ends meet.  And the reasons why employers can't or won't pay more. Whilst of course I accept it is largely a matter of supply and demand, I believe there are other factors at play, as I have previously outlined.

 

 

 

[Krataiboy]

7 hours ago, NotYourBusiness said:

I can see you didn't watch the video in post #3 ???? because, it can't be argued. You have it backwards.

I didn't but you are right. Just checked my source and realised I'd misread a chart which shows that it is actually the wealthiest countries which tend to have no minimum wage.

[Oziex1]

So give it to them what does it matter, just means more workers from across the border will arrive.

[kevin612]

That would be nice if prices stay the same.

[NotYourBusiness]

15 hours ago, mommysboy said:

The issues I raised are merely mentioned- the overall assumption is the market is ok/good, and no mention is made whether the employer is in fact the one operating inefficiently.  It is just assumed that profit is connected to worker efficiency.  The employer for example may only be able to pay his workers a certain sum because he is struggling to service debt.  

 

But I do agree that a minimum wage is unlikely to be the answer.  We really need to ask why so many people are facing poverty even though they are in employment-at the very least it raises a red flag about the economy as a whole. 

It seems you are still approaching this from your single minded efficiency standpoint. A workers wages will depend on the value he can bring to his employer, period. More skills, more value, higher wages possible. If you want higher wages, figure out how you can be more valuable to your employer.

 

Now it's true that an inefficient business won't have as much available to pay workers, but a business with wide profit margin can operate very inefficiently and still make a ton of money. Furthermore, these workers, if truly valuable, can get a job somewhere else and get more. Unless of course, you mean EVERY business in the entire economy is operating at thin margins and they are simultaneously all inefficient.

 

The big point you are missing, which was discussed at GREAT length in the video, is what about the entry level jobs that are not worth the minimum wage? Depends what you mean by "efficient". Do you mean automating away low paying jobs to be "efficient", as it explains in the video? Automating can also lead to much lower quality, like the case of automated phone operator hell. You have removed the lower rungs of the ladder which prevents people from climbing up. Why can't entry level people, or seniors, do these jobs? Not a good thing.

 

There is another point not mentioned yet, and that is the example in US for $15 minimum wage. Cost of living and real estate prices are 10x lower than Manhattan. How could it possibly work to have one nationwide minimum wage?

 

There are always entry level jobs that are not worth the minimum wage. This has nothing to do with efficiency. That is what internship is all about. And interns make nothing. Its a perverse situation where it is ok to pay interns nothing, but illegal to pay them $5 per hour.

[moontang]

Fire the dead weight and pay real workers more.