Chinese continue to soak up Thailand’s condo glut

[Traubert]

2 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

Couldn't you just bank the cheque into an account in China ? 

 

Yes you could. Overseas cheques take 30 days to clear in Chinese banks and you'd have to pay for the FX or else keep the balance in the foreign currency.

[Traubert]

7 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

Why is it that Chinese buy a condo it must be money laundering, why isnt everyone else considered to be laundering money.

 

I love all the obvious contradictions these threads bring up. 

All Chinese are on package tours but they are all independently staying in airBnB rentals.

They dont spend any money but are bringing suitcases full of illegal money.

 

Money laundering is usually hiding or converting money with no paper trail. Buying a condo in Thailand is the exact opposite, you declare the foreign funds when you send it, into a bank account in your name, prove to the Thai government the funds came from outside Thailand, end up with your name on a title deed.

Yes, but....but....but....

 

Y'know....they're CHINESE!!

[Bang Bang]

1 hour ago, Peterw42 said:

Thats all capitial gain that you can only realise by selling, what has been the corresponding yield from dividends over that same period ?

Cap gains/dividends are both income. In my case, I am reinvesting both as I have other income sources. Still tax rates on long-term cap gains are lower than for ordinary dividends in the US, so that's where you actually want the company to grow.

 

1 hour ago, Peterw42 said:

I have a couple of properties that give me 8% yield, in a couple of years it will be a 10% yield, thats money to live off without ever needing to sell.

 

8% is exceptional in Thailand. You're lucky or smart in choosing the location. 4% is what I see in comparing rent vs. purchase around where I live VM-Ari.

 

1 hour ago, ThaiBunny said:

In the very well managed and maintained building where I've lived for a number of years the rents have only fallen since the building went up.  A friend in another building on Sathorn/Rama 4 has paid the same rent for the past five years and none of the other similar apartments in the same building have seen a rent increase in that period 

Yep, I started off paying 25k/mth signing for 1 year about 10 years ago, liked the placed and signed a longer contract for 22k/mth after, then negotiated down to 20k/mth, my current rent.

 

Landlords are desperate for long-stay tenants. In and out Chinese pay more per day but upkeep is hell and the owner is perpetually chasing the next one.

 

Bottom line I haven't seen any evidence to contradict:

Invest in the west, rent in the east.

[wreckingcountry]

"Many don’t have Thai bank accounts"  How do you buy a condo without a bank account?

They use Chinese banks based in Thailand


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[bbi1]

On 5/3/2019 at 2:00 PM, ThaiBunny said:

Poor Thai building standards and the refusal of many Thais to pay their annual maintenance fees means means many buildings will simply collapse over time

I've always wondered, what happens if Thai people don't pay their annual maintenance fees?

[marcusarelus]

19 minutes ago, wreckingcountry said:

They use Chinese banks based in Thailand


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

I thought they paid cash. 

[Just Weird]

On ‎5‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 12:41 PM, ThaiBunny said:

I understood that overseas real estate purchases by the Chinese are a form of money laundering - China as you know is such a wonderfully safe place for their money the Chinese are all trying to get their money out as quickly as possible

So all the Chinese buying outside of China are money laundering?  Ridiculous.  Do you know what money laundering is?  Investing in overseas property sure isn't without evidence of that being the case.

[simple1]

An example of Chinese buying properties for money laundering. 

 

AUSTRAC said in a 2015 report that the laundering of illicit funds through real estate was "an established money laundering method in Australia".

It said about $1 billion in suspicious transactions came from Chinese investors into Australian property in 2015-2016.

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-25/money-laundering-laws-chris-bowen-dirty-money/10846552

 

 

[Mavideol]

On 5/3/2019 at 12:30 PM, zydeco said:

Just think, Chinese living above you, below you, and beside you. And you are stuck there because you own it.

...near you, drive and walk by you, shop at the same places as you (cutting lines), spitting next to you and the list could go on and on, remember 1.4 billion of them, now imagine 1-2% next you..whowww

[newnative]

On 5/4/2019 at 10:48 AM, Pilotman said:

15 million for a condo, in Jomtein? Bangkok maybe, at a stretch, but Jomtein?  I wouldn't even pay that for a big house, pool and land. It must be a wonderous place.  No wonder you had some difficulty selling it.  

   Your post got me thinking.  I've bought and sold about 15 condos in Pattaya, many of them in Jomtien, and I've been trying to think if there is any condo project in Jomtien where I would spend 15MB for a condo.   Short answer, no.  And, that goes for the rest of Pattaya, too.  And, Bangkok.  I haven't found any project that would entice me to plonk down 15MB for a condo.  Around 10MB would likely be my maximum and I wouldn't want any more than that tied up in one condo. 

[AtoZ]

3 hours ago, simple1 said:

An example of Chinese buying properties for money laundering. 

 

AUSTRAC said in a 2015 report that the laundering of illicit funds through real estate was "an established money laundering method in Australia".

It said about $1 billion in suspicious transactions came from Chinese investors into Australian property in 2015-2016.

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-25/money-laundering-laws-chris-bowen-dirty-money/10846552

 

 

https://globalnews.ca/news/5080238/toronto-real-estate-money-laundering-opaque-investment/

 

"A new report by Transparency International Canada has found Toronto’s much larger market faces massive floods of opaque cash, with $28.4 billion invested in Greater Toronto Area housing since 2008, through corporations."

 

And it's just tip of the iceberg.

[Rod the Sod]

19 hours ago, ThomasThBKK said:

 

 

Why would he pay taxes if he makes his money outside of Thailand? 

 

S&P500 is up 39%  the last 5 years and he's always liquid, he can exit his investment within a minute and move money around as he pleases.

 

Liquidity and stability is far more important than you make it sound ????

World-wide tax??? heard of it, especially if from USA.

 

I don't disagree about liquidity and there needs to be that in any portfolio. If you care to read the thread instead of glancing at selected parts, I have always maintained my views apply to those investors with a balanced portfolio that includes an element of risk (Thai property perhaps) and of course, in any balanced portfolio there is liquidity and stability. I have stressed that I would not buy if this was my sole property investment.

[Pravda]

17 hours ago, bbi1 said:

I've always wondered, what happens if Thai people don't pay their annual maintenance fees?

 

Nothing. Absolutely nothing.

 

My wife owns a townhouse that I've been staying at for the past 5 years. Everyone is supposed to pay a 200 baht flat fee for the maintenance which includes cleaning, garbage, security and recently they even redid the whole private road. Some people simply don't pay and there is nothing anyone can do except gossip.

 

So far I have been calculating the pros and cons of owning a condo in Thailand. The cons outweigh the pros by a large margin, such as:

 

1. Residency and visa issues. Can be kicked out at any time.

 

2. Poor maintenance.

 

3. Very nonchalant enforcement of rules such as Airbnb and maintenance payments 

 

4. People simply don't care about their property as much as in the west. Dirty.

 

5. Poor building construction

 

6. Hiso building overlooking third world infrastructure. 

 

7. TM30 issues and who knows what else in the future

 

 

Pros.

 

1. Low condo fees and no taxes. Can afford units to sit empty without renting out.

 

2. Lax policies as per above. Potential to make more money than in the west if you have a complete disregard for laws and neighbors.

 

3. Nice facilities until they are not. Buy early and sell early would be my strategy.

 

There's also currency and political issues which could either be pros or cons.

 

 

 

 

[Sealbash]

Nothing is guaranteed in a place like Thailand, but instability is. 
 
Invest in either a business or condo... No way!  
 
 
 
 
 
 

Political instability maybe. Economic instability not so much.


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[Rod the Sod]

1 hour ago, Pravda said:

 

Nothing. Absolutely nothing.

 

My wife owns a townhouse that I've been staying at for the past 5 years. Everyone is supposed to pay a 200 baht flat fee for the maintenance which includes cleaning, garbage, security and recently they even redid the whole private road. Some people simply don't pay and there is nothing anyone can do except gossip.

 

So far I have been calculating the pros and cons of owning a condo in Thailand. The cons outweigh the pros by a large margin, such as:

 

1. Residency and visa issues. Can be kicked out at any time.

 

2. Poor maintenance.

 

3. Very nonchalant enforcement of rules such as Airbnb and maintenance payments 

 

4. People simply don't care about their property as much as in the west. Dirty.

 

5. Poor building construction

 

6. Hiso building overlooking third world infrastructure. 

 

7. TM30 issues and who knows what else in the future

 

 

Pros.

 

1. Low condo fees and no taxes. Can afford units to sit empty without renting out.

 

2. Lax policies as per above. Potential to make more money than in the west if you have a complete disregard for laws and neighbors.

 

3. Nice facilities until they are not. Buy early and sell early would be my strategy.

 

There's also currency and political issues which could either be pros or cons.

 

 

 

 

Cant disagree with your assessment but there are other considerations depending upon the reason behind the investment. Speak to the Juristic and obtain a copy of the Rules & Regulations and insist they are enforced. In our Condo (I sit on the Board which is also a good idea to consider) we can, after a short period in time, disconnect them from water and electric and they cannot use any shared services. Interest of 20% is charged for late payment. At least, they can't rent it out until maintenance is paid, and they will have problems selling when the perspective purchasers are barred from entering any common area or use any utiliities. 

 

If the Juristic wont enforce these kinds of R & R insist upon their removal from office. 

[madmen]

4 minutes ago, Rod the Sod said:

Cant disagree with your assessment but there are other considerations depending upon the reason behind the investment. Speak to the Juristic and obtain a copy of the Rules & Regulations and insist they are enforced. In our Condo (I sit on the Board which is also a good idea to consider) we can, after a short period in time, disconnect them from water and electric and they cannot use any shared services. Interest of 20% is charged for late payment. At least, they can't rent it out until maintenance is paid, and they will have problems selling when the perspective purchasers are barred from entering any common area or use any utiliities. 

 

If the Juristic wont enforce these kinds of R & R insist upon their removal from office. 

We have similar rules. Most condos that were built within the last ten years have stiff rules regarding common area fees and disconnecting water and electric. Of course there will be a % that cant pay due to many reasons but thats the same the world over, sometimes plans dont work out or money dries up

[Senechal]

 

Chinese investors aren't some different species. They see the exact same shitty buy/rent ratios that we do. They know full-well that it's a better deal to rent a condo than to buy it in Bangkok.

 

But...

 

The difference is that they desperately need to get their money out of the country and beyond the reach of their government. This is the reason Chinese investors buy condos sight-unseen in Bangkok, Vancouver, Kuala Lumpur, London and New York at nosebleed prices. Growth potential is not the metric they're looking at. They're looking at parking cash globally because 100% loss is a distinct possibility in the PRC -- especially for those who have earned their money through corruption. (Which is $1 out of every $3 in their GDP).

 

If they see a zero growth for 10 years... or a small-percentage of negative growth -- that's relative risk reduction for Chinese nationals.  Anyone who sees Chinese buyers 'snapping up' condos and thinks they see value where we don't, is misunderstanding the dynamic IMHO.

 

 

[GinBoy2]

21 hours ago, bbi1 said:

I've always wondered, what happens if Thai people don't pay their annual maintenance fees?

Nothing happens.

 

The only time it becomes an issue is when you want to sell, since you need to obtain the 'debt free' letter from the Juristic to take to the Land Office to complete the sale

[Mavideol]

4 hours ago, Rod the Sod said:

Cant disagree with your assessment but there are other considerations depending upon the reason behind the investment. Speak to the Juristic and obtain a copy of the Rules & Regulations and insist they are enforced. In our Condo (I sit on the Board which is also a good idea to consider) we can, after a short period in time, disconnect them from water and electric and they cannot use any shared services. Interest of 20% is charged for late payment. At least, they can't rent it out until maintenance is paid, and they will have problems selling when the perspective purchasers are barred from entering any common area or use any utiliities. 

 

If the Juristic wont enforce these kinds of R & R insist upon their removal from office. 

they don't pay the normal agreed upon fee and you expect them to pay the fee +20% on top, wishful thinking, being on the board or not doesn't change anything, did it 4 years ago and my voice had absolutely no weight in, the other members (all Thais) don't care about our opinion, they do pretend to care...couldn't stand it anymore and quit, you had to see the smile on their faces

[Mavideol]

3 hours ago, Senechal said:

 

Chinese investors aren't some different species. They see the exact same shitty buy/rent ratios that we do. They know full-well that it's a better deal to rent a condo than to buy it in Bangkok.

 

But...

 

The difference is that they desperately need to get their money out of the country and beyond the reach of their government. This is the reason Chinese investors buy condos sight-unseen in Bangkok, Vancouver, Kuala Lumpur, London and New York at nosebleed prices. Growth potential is not the metric they're looking at. They're looking at parking cash globally because 100% loss is a distinct possibility in the PRC -- especially for those who have earned their money through corruption. (Which is $1 out of every $3 in their GDP).

 

If they see a zero growth for 10 years... or a small-percentage of negative growth -- that's relative risk reduction for Chinese nationals.  Anyone who sees Chinese buyers 'snapping up' condos and thinks they see value where we don't, is misunderstanding the dynamic IMHO.

 

 

only (big) difference they need to clean money, thus they care less for the small problems

[Rod the Sod]

2 hours ago, Mavideol said:

they don't pay the normal agreed upon fee and you expect them to pay the fee +20% on top, wishful thinking, being on the board or not doesn't change anything, did it 4 years ago and my voice had absolutely no weight in, the other members (all Thais) don't care about our opinion, they do pretend to care...couldn't stand it anymore and quit, you had to see the smile on their faces

Sorry for your experience - not mine however and I have managed to influence some change, perhaps the reason being the Thai members of the Board were equally fed up with miscreants. Good reply from GinBoy2 above.

[madmen]

5 hours ago, GinBoy2 said:

 

 

5 hours ago, Senechal said:

 

Chinese investors aren't some different species. They see the exact same shitty buy/rent ratios that we do. They know full-well that it's a better deal to rent a condo than to buy it in Bangkok.

 

But...

 

The difference is that they desperately need to get their money out of the country and beyond the reach of their government. This is the reason Chinese investors buy condos sight-unseen in Bangkok, Vancouver, Kuala Lumpur, London and New York at nosebleed prices. Growth potential is not the metric they're looking at. They're looking at parking cash globally because 100% loss is a distinct possibility in the PRC -- especially for those who have earned their money through corruption. (Which is $1 out of every $3 in their GDP).

 

If they see a zero growth for 10 years... or a small-percentage of negative growth -- that's relative risk reduction for Chinese nationals.  Anyone who sees Chinese buyers 'snapping up' condos and thinks they see value where we don't, is misunderstanding the dynamic IMHO.

 

 

Did you write that with a straight face ????

Total garbage cliches rinse and repeated and passed down by the TV bar stool brigade. Im just curious how you get all the Chinese people to open up to you about there finances ????

[Traubert]

9 minutes ago, madmen said:

 

Did you write that with a straight face ????

Total garbage cliches rinse and repeated and passed down by the TV bar stool brigade. Im just curious how you get all the Chinese people to open up to you about there finances ????

In fact what he said may have been true 10 years ago but certainly not now.

 

Hard fact is, there's nothing to invest your money in in China except property. There are regulations against speculation too so a Chinese can only minimally invest even in property. Yeah there are stocks but they're capped by the Government since the Shanghai Composite hit the magic 5000 and everyone cashed out. Yeah, there's P2P schemes but even they hover on the edge of legality.

 

Another truism is that property in Thailand runs at about a third of the cost of property in China. That's a broad brush I know but compare like for like Bangkok/Beijing, Phuket/Hainan, Pattaya/Donguan etc.

 

The poster who said the Chinese were parking money is quite correct but not for the reasons he said so. It doesn't pay to have too much in the bank in China unless you are squeaky clean and very well connected.

[BritManToo]

26 minutes ago, madmen said:

 

Did you write that with a straight face ????

Total garbage cliches rinse and repeated and passed down by the TV bar stool brigade. Im just curious how you get all the Chinese people to open up to you about there finances ????

Your posts on the wonderfullness of the Thai property market verges on the rabid.

You must own a shitload of condos.

[losworld]

11 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Your posts on the wonderfullness of the Thai property market verges on the rabid.

You must own a shitload of condos.

if he gets burned in the market he will need to change his name from "madmen" to "hadmen" lol

[Basil B]

If it is Chinese laundering their money, expect the properties to remain empty and maintenance fees unpaid, one thing for sure they will not be renting to Cheap Charlies.

[gk10002000]

Sadly I have seen many videos and photos of Chinese renting out their condos with many many more people in the unit than is usual.  Aren't there Thai laws supposed to prevent a condo building from having more than 49% foreigner owned so there would be a limit to how many Chinese could buy into buildings?  Of course I am sure there are ways to sneak around that, prop up a Thai person as the owner, pay off some officials, etc

[gk10002000]

29 minutes ago, Basil B said:

If it is Chinese laundering their money, expect the properties to remain empty and maintenance fees unpaid, one thing for sure they will not be renting to Cheap Charlies.

Yeah, I agree.  I would be very leery about buying into any such units and then getting stuck with horrible or negligent management, no proper reasonable controls, ec.

[Airalee]

On 5/3/2019 at 9:27 AM, bapoboy said:

In Bangkok a middle class income family can easily afford to buy a house,condo/apartment without affecting their income to much, and no most Thais earn well over 300 baht a day, the TVF people think that all Thais lives on minimum wage which is ridiculous, just show you have little knowledge about the average expat have about Thais in general.

 

in Paris,London and New York where only millionaires and billionaires can live unless you are willing to pay 90% of your wage to have a home, there is a shortage of property in those cities and the govemernt doesn’t seem to care at all, these cities only for the rich, the big real estate sharks win again.

 

One of the basic things you need in life is to have a home to stay in, but some people is all about making much money as possible and don’t care about the average John, they need to build more in those cities and build more affordable, so the average person have roof over he’s head..

 

thailand wins again, they are building to much, that’s what keeps the prices down, the less demand the less you can get. Most popular areas in Bangkok the prices have going through the roof, the base condo on sukhumvit 77, the prices started at 2,5million THB, now couple of years later, the prices have almost doubled, I use to live there, last year.

Prices haven’t doubled at “The Base Sukhumvit 77”.  In fact, there are still units available for ฿2,490,000 asking.

 

 

[bbi1]

On 5/7/2019 at 1:08 AM, gk10002000 said:

Sadly I have seen many videos and photos of Chinese renting out their condos with many many more people in the unit than is usual.  Aren't there Thai laws supposed to prevent a condo building from having more than 49% foreigner owned so there would be a limit to how many Chinese could buy into buildings?  Of course I am sure there are ways to sneak around that, prop up a Thai person as the owner, pay off some officials, etc

49% is meant to be the law for foreign ownership but there are a number of condos that have more than 49% foreign ownership.