Volunteering

[seancbk]

6 hours ago, Leaver said:

This article would tend to your post quite inaccurate.

 

https://thethaiger.com/news/phuket/Tsunami-volunteers-warned-work-permits

Published  14 years ago on  February 8, 2005

So you think there have been no changes in the laws or the way the Thai Government thinks in 14 years?
 

[seancbk]

6 hours ago, Leaver said:

6 hours ago, seancbk said:

 

 

On day stories about people getting into trouble for 'working' on their own homes will finally stop.  

You can do what you want on and in your own property, otherwise cooking yourself food would be illegal, doing housework would be illegal, driving your own car would be illegal. 

 

Ok, go and build yourself an extension and see how you go.  ????

 

If you equate building an extension with painting a wall you've got some very strange views.  

[shy coconut]

11 hours ago, Leaver said:

This article would tend to your post quite inaccurate.

 

https://thethaiger.com/news/phuket/Tsunami-volunteers-warned-work-permits

That article was dated Feb 8th, 6 weeks after the tsunami. The man in charge of

work permits seemed to say that in the immediate aftermath of the tsunami, work

permits were not required.

 

Do you have any links to reports of anyone being prosecuted for volunteering in 

the aftermath of the disaster?

Edited May 6, 2019 by shy coconut
Spelling

[jacko45k]

16 hours ago, The Deerhunter said:

The technicality is you could be doing a Thai persona out of a paid job so you can't work for free. Theoretically, that includes hanging a picture on your wall in your home, or mowing your own lawns.

This type of incorrect scare mongering serves no purpose. You can do what you like in your own property. 

The only possibility is if someone you have upset makes a report against you and the police see an opportunity to put the squeeze on.  

[justin case]

On 5/5/2019 at 6:01 PM, Puchaiyank said:

It has always been a mystery to me as Thailand has low unemployment...why they would not promote using farangs who would like to volunteer...just to feel good and useful...no reward needed...

 

Actually, many things Thais insist upon defy logic...????

someone has to show those pesky farangs who is the boss with silly 90 day report rules, yearly photocopies (save a tree) useless copies in double , proof you still are married, as if the silly wife would take pictures with her in her house with you if you weren't... I would volunteer to teach some english for free, but nah... not going to all the crapshoot and thailand is for thai people and they don't need a second language even they work in places with tourists (us long stay and the 30 day king for a month types)

[Longcut]

Funny how they don't seem to have a problem with the U.S. military volunteering to build new schools during Cobra Gold, without a work permit.

[Vacuum]

On 5/5/2019 at 11:25 AM, rjwill01 said:

Western ideas and philosophy will still come out even if it is volunteer work. That's the main reason. We we're all told when we came here that we are visitor's and to not change Thai Tradition . I still accept that.

What about missionaries?

[brianthainess]

On 5/5/2019 at 7:46 PM, Pilotman said:

I separate my own trash for recycling, apart from that I wouldn't lift a little finger to help the Thais clean up the trash heap they call a countryside/beach side. They don't care, so neither do I. 

Some DO care my wife is a "Trash Hero" she has a business but still finds time to go out and clean up the crap,dons her yellow shirt ,blue hat and scarf , with the trash hero emblems,as a local team they even get taken to the uninhabited off limit small islands to clean the beaches ,sometimes with the navy's help !

[Saltire]

13 hours ago, jackdd said:

Even if what you say is true.

Imagine you are working unpaid as english teacher assistent.

Immigration police come to the school because they want to check if everything is in order.

They find you teaching english, so they demand to see the work permit. You say you were just volunteering... can you prove that you didn't get paid? Don't forget, this is Thailand, not a first world country. They assume you have been working illegally, you can't prove that you haven't, so you will be arrested and spend a while in jail / IDC.

If you are lucky it's just a few days before you have your court hearing.

Immigration police tells the judge that they found you teaching english in a school and you don't have a work permit. You tell the judge that you don't get paid for it, so does the school director, but of course you guys say this, even if you had been paid. You have no way to "prove" that you didn't get paid.

If the judge decides that you were probably working you might be banned from Thailand. You want to take your chances on it?

This is exactly right and is why for 3 years I have been turning down many requests for 'paid' tuition to some well-off families children in my village, as well as turning down frequent requests from the 2 local schools to do some English Corners. I am settled here and it is just not worth the risk. I do find it frustrating as I would love to volunteer. I did so for 5 years in Cambodia - it is very rewarding. I don't see Thailand changing this anytime soon unfortunately.

[overherebc]

3 hours ago, jacko45k said:

This type of incorrect scare mongering serves no purpose. You can do what you like in your own property. 

The only possibility is if someone you have upset makes a report against you and the police see an opportunity to put the squeeze on.  

I use the scaremongering gambit at home.

Sorry darling, can't mow the lawn, no work permit. ????

Edited May 7, 2019 by overherebc

[stevenl]

6 hours ago, shy coconut said:

That article was dated Feb 8th, 6 weeks after the tsunami. The man in charge of

work permits seemed to say that in the immediate aftermath of the tsunami, work

permits were not required.

 

Do you have any links to reports of anyone being prosecuted for volunteering in 

the aftermath of the disaster?

In the immediate aftermath of the tsunami all help was welcomed, nearly exclusively without workpermit since nobody had a workpermit for the kind of work they were doing.

 

When things got settled and there was no immediate need anymore they announced: workpermits required.

All makes sense to me.

 

Nobody got arrested or afaik personally warned.

[essox essox]

On 5/5/2019 at 7:46 PM, Pilotman said:

I separate my own trash for recycling, apart from that I wouldn't lift a little finger to help the Thais clean up the trash heap they call a countryside/beach side. They don't care, so neither do I. 

true....I would NOT clear up crap left by other people. Is there NOT a cleansing department here??

If there is then they should do it....

[Mavideol]

17 hours ago, SS1 said:

 

Not correct. This used to be the law but it has been amended a few months ago. Unpaid volunteering and interning is no longer considered work and does not require a WP. I'm repeating these words from the mouth of the director of foreign employee division from the ministry of labour. 

do you have any back up data to support that, please feel free to share

[Mavideol]

16 hours ago, Mukdahanman said:

 

And there’s the rub. I totally agree with the OP. The local schools are desperate for me to pop in and get advice from someone who is actually from England about the English language,  it if I do this altruistic act I am liable to deportation. Can’t this country learn to help itself a little more?

and you are an English teacher? should check posts before posting

[Mukdahanman]

2 hours ago, Mavideol said:

and you are an English teacher? should check posts before posting

No I’m not. What on earth are you on about?

[overherebc]

4 hours ago, Mavideol said:

do you have any back up data to support that, please feel free to share

Agree with you.  The spoken word doesn't make it a law.

[Leaver]

On 5/6/2019 at 8:27 PM, stevenl said:

That was considerable time afterwards, and nobody got arrested.

If you were volunteering at the time, and read that article, would you have continued to volunteer, after being threatened, and with your work being so unappreciated?

[Leaver]

19 hours ago, SS1 said:

What you are describing is a clear example of illegal working - hardly anything to do with actual volunteering. 
 

Well, this is certainly right! enforcement and the law could be quite different at the end, TiT after all. I would not consider such a scenario unlikely at all. When I was at the seminar with the labour dept. the director actually used the example of farangs on holiday teaching English to kids for fun. She said they realised, it would be pointless to prohibit such activity as it is good for Thais and Thailand. Everyone in the room was joking that wouldn't just everyone say that "I'm a volunteer" if caught working illegally? The officials had no comment for that... 

But say such case would actually go to court, it wouldn't be too hard to see who is an actual volunteer on a 2-week holiday teaching kids with some charitable organisation, vs. a classic English teacher who's lived here for 5 years and getting regular payments for working illegally at a school. 
 

Can you give an example of volunteering that you can 100% guarantee me could never be considered work by authorities looking to bang you up? 

[Leaver]

19 hours ago, seancbk said:

Published  14 years ago on  February 8, 2005

So you think there have been no changes in the laws or the way the Thai Government thinks in 14 years?
 

Don't shoot the messenger. 

 

The article speaks for itself. 

[Leaver]

19 hours ago, seancbk said:

 

If you equate building an extension with painting a wall you've got some very strange views.  

My point is, it's in the same industry, that is reserved for Thai's.  It doesn't matter if it's your house, or not.

 

What about painting your friend's house?  What about paint a new friend's house the week after, and another friend's the week after that?

 

"Oh, but he is my friend.  I paint for free."  Do you think they will accept that?    

[Leaver]

14 hours ago, shy coconut said:

That article was dated Feb 8th, 6 weeks after the tsunami. The man in charge of

work permits seemed to say that in the immediate aftermath of the tsunami, work

permits were not required.

 

Do you have any links to reports of anyone being prosecuted for volunteering in 

the aftermath of the disaster?

See Post #79.

 

I can only go on what he said, which I think is shameful, but, TiT. 

[The Deerhunter]

11 hours ago, jacko45k said:

This type of incorrect scare mongering serves no purpose. You can do what you like in your own property. 

The only possibility is if someone you have upset makes a report against you and the police see an opportunity to put the squeeze on.  

I have been living here for a number of years and to the best of my knowledge this is not scaremongering at all. I believe that this is the exact rules as they have been for many years, with some changes March 2018 by a recent note from ubon Joe. The big problem is that the rules exist and if someone doesn't like you in your area they can get at you easily. No this has not happened to me. I get on very well with everyone around me and of course the average Thai person has absolutely no concept of the rules governing the behavior of foreigners living here. But I am very aware of apparently performing work where it could be seen and criticized. Being in the country and get on with my local acquaintances, my chances of having a problem are small. But the rules are there and are potentially able to be held against you at the discretion of the authorities.  Potentially all it takes is one knowledgeable smarty pants with a grudge.  With the exception of whatever changes have occurred in the last 14 months. Also bear in mind that every Branch adapts the rules to suit their own circumstances and so it depends on which region you live in what the local rules are interpreted as.

Edited May 7, 2019 by The Deerhunter

[Leaver]

11 hours ago, jacko45k said:

This type of incorrect scare mongering serves no purpose. You can do what you like in your own property. 

The only possibility is if someone you have upset makes a report against you and the police see an opportunity to put the squeeze on.  

You contradict yourself.

 

One one hand, you say you can do what you like in your own property, and on the other hand you say if someone reports you the police and squeeze you.

 

So, can you do what you like in your own property, or not?

 

Define, "in your own property."  Does that include the boundaries of you land, if so, are are suggesting you can build yourself a house?  If not, just what amount of construction do you think is is acceptable?  Eg. no bricklaying but plumbing is ok. What about painting? 

[Peterw42]

4 minutes ago, Leaver said:

If you were volunteering at the time, and read that article, would you have continued to volunteer, after being threatened, and with your work being so unappreciated?

It was more to do with people turning up to volunteer 6 months after the tsunami with their golf clubs , or turning up then opening a noodle shop. They had to crack down because the system was being abused.

[Leaver]

8 hours ago, stevenl said:

In the immediate aftermath of the tsunami all help was welcomed, nearly exclusively without workpermit since nobody had a workpermit for the kind of work they were doing.

 

When things got settled and there was no immediate need anymore they announced: workpermits required.

All makes sense to me.

 

Nobody got arrested or afaik personally warned.

So, work permits are needed for volunteering.  Correct?

[Leaver]

10 minutes ago, The Deerhunter said:

I have been living here for a number of years and to the best of my knowledge this is not scaremongering at all. I believe that this is the exact rules as they have been for many years, with some changes March 2018 by a recent note from ubon Joe. The big problem is that the rules exist and if someone doesn't like you in your area they can get at you easily. No this has not happened to me. I get on very well with everyone around me and of course the average Thai person has absolutely no concept of the rules governing the behavior of foreigners living here. But I am very aware of apparently performing work where it could be seen and criticized. Being in the country and get on with my local acquaintances, my chances of having a problem are small. But the rules are there and are potentially able to be held against you at the discretion of the authorities.  Potentially all it takes is one knowledgeable smarty pants with a grudge.  With the exception of whatever changes have occurred in the last 14 months. Also bear in mind that every Branch adapts the rules to suit their own circumstances and so it depends on which region you live in what the local rules are interpreted as.

I agree, and how would one prove "no payment?" 

 

It's just not worth the risk. 

[Leaver]

8 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

It was more to do with people turning up to volunteer 6 months after the tsunami with their golf clubs , or turning up then opening a noodle shop. They had to crack down because the system was being abused.

It was 6 weeks after, not 6 months, and if I remember correctly, Phuket was begging tourists to come back at that time, and I believe even after 6 weeks, some clean up and refitting was still taking  place.

 

Anyway, the article speaks for itself.

 

If people were threatened after the tsunami, what hope for an English teacher doing some volunteer work. 

 

However noble, they run the risk of being arrested.  Do you agree, and if not, can you explain why not?

[Peterw42]

12 minutes ago, Leaver said:

So, work permits are needed for volunteering.  Correct?

Theoretically yes, but if you go and volunteer at the local orphanage nobody is going to care less or come and arrest you. Volunteering is done through/for a registered charity, foundation, NGO etc. You are under the umbrella of that official organisation.

If you are serious the NGO/charity will arrange a volunteer visa and WP etc.

 

Up north amongst the poor hill tribes there probably are teach English NGOs and charities.

 

You cant just wake up one morning and call yourself a volunteer and start cleaning the footpath.

Edited May 7, 2019 by Peterw42

[The Deerhunter]

Just now, Leaver said:

I agree, and how would one prove "no payment?" 

 

It's just not worth the risk. 

Exactly. So someone who has a wife here who has a farm or a noodle shop. Does that mean that you can help cook the food or prune the trees? You are volunteering your labor!!!  It is absolutely not worth the risk. Every now and then we read in this forum about some guy helping his wife in her shop and being a good guy in the neighborhood. It was a guy recently who is filling all the potholes in on his Road. The law is that these people are doing a Thai person out of a job. If it's work, you need a work permit  and there are many jobs which are forbidden to foreigners although that was aspo changed over the last year. I wonder how many of these guys mentioned in the media, including this forum, get rolled by immigration.

[The Deerhunter]

Just now, Peterw42 said:

Theoretically yes, but if you go and volunteer at the local orphanage nobody is going to care less or come and arrest you. Volunteering is done through/for a registered charity, foundation, NGO etc. You are under the umbrella of that official organisation.

If you are serious the NGO/charity will arrange a volunteer visa and WP etc.

 

 

Just wondering, have you any exact occasions where you have heard of people having this done to help them in this manner, because I have not. In fact to the contrary. I refuse to help in schools although I would love to.  I have had offers and the offers usually include money but I always feel it necessary to say no.