buy condo in pattaya for investment / which one ?

[BigStar]

3 hours ago, Ron jeremy said:

glad I never bought a condo , invested the principal, came out far far ahead, still have my cash, +++and don't have property I in the current environment in Pattay.

Glad I bought a condo as merely one asset in my portfolio, have come out far far ahead, have as much cash as I need, +++and live in my comfortable property in all environments in Pattaya.

[mike111]

10 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

Also not everyone wants to live in Jomtien surrounded by tourists coming and going, i certainly don't, one of the down sides of being on the baht bus route

You'll be surrounded by tourists almost everywhere in central Pattaya and actually Jomtien is a lot quieter and more "residental".

 

The VT2 building aren't on the main road - from the main entrance there's a road which turns left to building A and another further down to building B. I've stayed in a few units in both buildings and never heard any traffic noise. In a project like 7 Seas (IIRC, further up Thappraya road) which is literally on the main road traffic noise  could be an issue.

Edited June 20, 2020 by mike111

[mike111]

11 hours ago, baansgr said:

I would have agreed with this a few years ago. Prices in VT have dropped, both sales and rentals...Also there isn't the customer base as previously so very hard to find tenants even befor Covid. 

Again, from my experience staying there multiple times including last year is that the place was busy, at least in the September-March period.  Obviously this year could be different if borders don't open but that's an anomaly.

 

Regarding prices falling - the condo market, both sales and rentals, is strongly influenced by foreigners. In June 2016 1 USD= 36 THB while now it's now it's around 31 - a  14% appreciation. For the Aussie $ is was 26 in June 16 and around 22 now - a similar trend. Accordingly prices would adjust downward to compensate, but that's true everywhere.

 

 

[scoupeo]

have you found something ? i am looking for pool facing condo in Pattaya, if you have any idea ?

 

thanks.

[HauptmannUK]

On 6/20/2020 at 11:10 AM, mike111 said:

 

Regarding prices falling - the condo market, both sales and rentals, is strongly influenced by foreigners. In June 2016 1 USD= 36 THB while now it's now it's around 31 - a  14% appreciation. For the Aussie $ is was 26 in June 16 and around 22 now - a similar trend. Accordingly prices would adjust downward to compensate, but that's true everywhere.

 

 

My impression is that in the last couple of years the Chinese and Indians were driving a large chunk of the condo market. So the Rupee and RMB would be the currencies of interest. Certainly a lot of recent projects have targeted Chinese buyers.  Prior to that the Russians were strong buyers, until the Rouble fell off a cliff.  Not sure the AUS$ has ever influenced the price of anything in Thailand, there are not enough Aussies around to have that sort of impact.

[HauptmannUK]

I think a condo could be a good investment.  Some years back my wife bought a room in what was then a new block just off Sukhumwit near the King Power stadium.  Its very much a Thai-style place.  Room with fan, bathroom, balcony. IIRC she paid a bit under 700k at the time.  Its actually a clean and tidy place with a nice enough atmosphere, but not the kind of place foreigners would stay. For a couple of years she rented it out to a family member for about 4500/month. She now has a massage lady staying there with her daughter - I think about the same rent. So 50k a year from under 700k investment is not too bad.

A few years ago she also bought a condo which we live in. More as a lifestyle investment than a financial investment (she wanted a permanent base in Pattaya).  You must note that a Thai will often pay much less for a condo in the 'Thai quota' than a foreigner would pay for a condo in the 'foreign quota'.  There are (up to now) generally far fewer Thai buyers so the discounts can be very significant and essentially subsidised by the higher prices charged to foreign buyers.

[mike111]

13 hours ago, HauptmannUK said:

My impression is that in the last couple of years the Chinese and Indians were driving a large chunk of the condo market. So the Rupee and RMB would be the currencies of interest. Certainly a lot of recent projects have targeted Chinese buyers.  Prior to that the Russians were strong buyers, until the Rouble fell off a cliff.  Not sure the AUS$ has ever influenced the price of anything in Thailand, there are not enough Aussies around to have that sort of impact.

Plenty of Aussies in View Talay 2 (where I usually stay), so the AUD exchange rate definitely had an impact, at least on rents.

 

Chinese and Indians tend to buy new units in the recent mega-projects so that would impact prices there but not in the 2nd hand market. As I've written above, it would be interesting to see the condition of these mega-projects in 3-5 years once owners stop paying their common fees (common practice in condominiums in China).

 

[Leaver]

On 6/19/2020 at 10:41 PM, Ron jeremy said:

glad I never bought a condo , invested the principal, came out far far ahead, still have my cash, +++and don't have property I in the current environment in Pattay.

I'm the same.  A property in Thailand is like an anchor.  The purchase price can be working harder elsewhere, which more than covers the rent on the exact same property, and is liquid. 

 

No repairs, maintenance, upgrades, and fees to pay.  Most importantly, freedom to move whenever you like, or should you have to.  That equals no headaches, and no loses.  It's the same with the 800k for the retirement visa.  A total waste of money.  Invested elsewhere more than covers the agent's fees.  

 

The old saying "rent is dead money" is not applicable to foreigners living in Thailand.

 

After a home entertainment system and a motor scooter, the only money I put into Thailand is living expenses on a monthly basis, and I have total freedom to move around, or leave the country, whenever I want.   

[mike111]

6 minutes ago, Leaver said:

I'm the same.  A property in Thailand is like an anchor.  The purchase price can be working harder elsewhere, which more than covers the rent on the exact same property, and is liquid. 

 

No repairs, maintenance, upgrades, and fees to pay.  Most importantly, freedom to move whenever you like, or should you have to.    

These arguments can be said when buying a property anywhere in the world.  It's the usual dillema of taking a long term commitment vs averting it. If someone is just visiting Thailand for a short period yearly then buying a unit may not make much sense. If you're living here or visiting frequently then having your place is way better.

 

Comparing the property investment here vs. western countries is irrelevant - a spacious studio can be bought for around 40K USD, which is what an upscale car costs, and you have the freedom to renovate to your liking, don't have to ask permission from the owner for whatever you want to do, and you have a place of your own.

 

If you've done your homework and bought in a well-maintained project (like View Talay 2) then there's an active market - the place can be rented out (if you're away) and can be sold once you're ready to leave. If visited VT2 multiple times and there are always renters and buyers around, sure prices fluctuate but it's a great place to stay and hence in demand. The key point here is to buy in well-managed and centrally located project and avoid the middle-of-nowhere bargains.

 

 

[scubascuba3]

1 minute ago, mike111 said:

These arguments can be said when buying a property anywhere in the world.  It's the usual dillema of taking a long term commitment vs averting it. If someone is just visiting Thailand for a short period yearly then buying a unit may not make much sense. If you're living here or visiting frequently then having your place is way better.

 

Comparing the property investment here vs. western countries is irrelevant - a spacious studio can be bought for around 40K USD, which is what an upscale car costs, and you have the freedom to renovate to your liking, don't have to ask permission from the owner for whatever you want to do, and you have a place of your own.

 

If you've done your homework and bought in a well-maintained project (like View Talay 2) then there's an active market - the place can be rented out (if you're away) and can be sold once you're ready to leave. If visited VT2 multiple times and there are always renters and buyers around, sure prices fluctuate but it's a great place to stay and hence in demand. The key point here is to buy in well-managed and centrally located project and avoid the middle-of-nowhere bargains.

 

 

When you say a well managed project such as VT2 didn't the JP or committee person do a runner with a large sum of money?

[mike111]

Well maintained referred to the project being well-kept, everything is serviced and nothing is left broken. I'm not sure what's their financials are like but even if what you suggested was true that would an anomaly - there are crooks everywhere and unfortunately uch incidents can happen.

 

At least in building A there's a very active committee comprised of residents who really care about the place and it's obvious how well maintained it is. They even have a website where the regularly inform of renovations which have been carried with photos and all.

 

[Leaver]

10 minutes ago, mike111 said:

These arguments can be said when buying a property anywhere in the world.  It's the usual dillema of taking a long term commitment vs averting it.

No.  My passport currently allows me to live in certain countries, and many other countries offer an obtainable path to permanent residency.  Not so, in Thailand.  I have a piece of paper in my passport granting me permission, not the right, to live in Thailand.  That can be revoked at any time, or the goal posts changed to a criteria that many can't meet, or no longer want to meet. 

 

You can buy a condo here, but it's that little piece of paper in your passport that allows you to live in it. 

 

It's hard to give a long term commitment to Thailand when that's the only security they are offering foreigners for residing here. 

 

14 minutes ago, mike111 said:

If you're living here or visiting frequently then having your place is way better.

I don't think so.  Like I said, for many, it's become an anchor.  Many are now stuck in Thailand, because they can't sell.  (nothing to do with the virus)

 

16 minutes ago, mike111 said:

and you have the freedom to renovate to your liking, don't have to ask permission from the owner for whatever you want to do, and you have a place of your own.

 

If you are renting, you just move to newer, or nicer, or renovated condo.  No renovation costs, thus saving more money.  Simple.

 

18 minutes ago, mike111 said:

If you've done your homework and bought in a well-maintained project (like View Talay 2) then there's an active market - the place can be rented out (if you're away) and can be sold once you're ready to leave.

Condos have been on the market here for years, yes, years.  

 

19 minutes ago, mike111 said:

If visited VT2 multiple times and there are always renters and buyers around, sure prices fluctuate but it's a great place to stay and hence in demand.

And what of the hundreds of other condo blocks in Pattaya? 

[mike111]

The long term commitment I referred to is the dillema between investing (say 40K$ now) vs. paying rent. It has nothing to do with what kind of residency/citizenship Thailand allows.  What would you gain from having a Thai passport?.

BTW, if residency (not citizenship) is an issue then there is the Thailand Elite program which provides something very close.

 

Who cares about a million other useless projects? Caveat Emptor - it's the buyer's responsibility to do their homework and ensure they're buying in a project which has a solid track-record and specs. I've looked all around Pattaya and Jomtien and yes 99% of the projects are rubbish and a sinkhole for the buyer's money. Good luck to bargain hunters looking for a 1M condo in that rice field "just 15 minutes from the beach". Or the new mega projects with horrendous construction quality and shoebox size units.

 

Only a small fraction of the projects are worth considering. I've stayed in VT2 multiple times and can wholeheartedly recommend it. Just go there and look around.

[Leaver]

8 minutes ago, mike111 said:

The long term commitment I referred to is the dillema between investing (say 40K$ now) vs. paying rent. It has nothing to do with what kind of residency/citizenship Thailand allows.  What would you gain from having a Thai passport?.

It helps to invest in a property that you have a guarantee that you can live in, long term.  ????

 

9 minutes ago, mike111 said:

BTW, if residency (not citizenship) is an issue then there is the Thailand Elite program which provides something very close.

No, it doesn't.  It's not a long term commitment from the Thai government to a foreigner.

 

10 minutes ago, mike111 said:

Who cares about a million other useless projects?

Maybe because VT is surrounded by millions of other useless condos VT's prices are affected. 

11 minutes ago, mike111 said:

Caveat Emptor - it's the buyer's responsibility to do their homework and ensure they're buying in a project which has a solid track-record and specs.

The best caveat emptor for Thailand has ALWAYS been rent, don't buy.

 

12 minutes ago, mike111 said:

I've looked all around Pattaya and Jomtien and yes 99% of the projects are rubbish and a sinkhole for the buyer's money.

And what does that do to property values across the city?

 

13 minutes ago, mike111 said:

Only a small fraction of the projects are worth considering. I've stayed in VT2 multiple times and can wholeheartedly recommend it. Just go there and look around.

Nice place to stay, but not to buy.  Why bother buying here?  It makes no economic sense.

[mike111]

Thailand has promoted retirement/nonimmigrant visa schemes for over 2-3 decades with even new schemes being introduced like the Elite I've mentioned. It has every intention to keep allowing foreigners to reside if they meet reasonable criteria, as in most other countries. The Elite program I've mentioned provides (in one of its instances) a 20 year residency visa - that is a pretty long commitment.

 

No offense but you don't provide any support for your comments , e.g. "The best caveat emptor for Thailand has ALWAYS been rent, don't buy. " - any solid facts to justify this? have you spoken with happy owners/investors or is your experience based only on hasty buyers who bought the cheapest studio they could find and now regret throwing away their money?. Again, not all projects are the same and it's the buyer's responsibility to check and re-check before spending. There are a few great places to buy/invest in (like VT2) but the vast majority are rubbish.

 

At the end of the day I'm not trying to convince you and we don't have to agree. If you're determined not to buy for living/investment (or both) and prefer living out of your suitcase during your years while in Thailand then by all means.

 

 

[CanadaSam]

On 5/11/2019 at 10:41 PM, BestB said:

Upside, 7000 baht property would cost around 25000 to fully furnish

 

BB, could you please elaborate on this?  Or have you missed a zero?

[Leaver]

On 6/25/2020 at 10:10 AM, mike111 said:

Thailand has promoted retirement/nonimmigrant visa schemes for over 2-3 decades

Has it promoted foreign ownership of land with the same vigor? 

 

On 6/25/2020 at 10:10 AM, mike111 said:

It has every intention to keep allowing foreigners to reside if they meet reasonable criteria,

How do you know what the Thai government will do tomorrow, and what criteria they will make in the future?

 

On 6/25/2020 at 10:10 AM, mike111 said:

The Elite program I've mentioned provides (in one of its instances) a 20 year residency visa - that is a pretty long commitment.

It's still just a visa, and can be revoked.  It doesn't come with any "right" to live here. 

 

On 6/25/2020 at 10:10 AM, mike111 said:

No offense but you don't provide any support for your comments , e.g. "The best caveat emptor for Thailand has ALWAYS been rent, don't buy. " - any solid facts to justify this?

My support comes from the thousands of foreigners that have had to go home, broke. 

 

If a foreigner comes to Thailand and sticks to "rent don't buy" and that other famous saying, "don't put any money into Thailand that you cn't afford to lose" then you will still be able to live here and enjoy Thailand, which is the goal of most people moving here.

 

When one starts to think business, property, law, even love, is the same as in the west, perhaps even backed up with some legal protection, you are setting yourself up for pain and suffering here.

 

On 6/25/2020 at 10:10 AM, mike111 said:

have you spoken with happy owners/investors or is your experience based only on hasty buyers who bought the cheapest studio they could find and now regret throwing away their money?.

Most have tried to sell, but can't, and now wish they have never bought.  They are in a variety of properties.  

 

On 6/25/2020 at 10:10 AM, mike111 said:

Again, not all projects are the same and it's the buyer's responsibility to check and re-check before spending.

But they are all still in Pattaya, and Pattaya is in Thailand. 

 

On 6/25/2020 at 10:10 AM, mike111 said:

At the end of the day I'm not trying to convince you and we don't have to agree.

Well said.  Let's agree to disagree.

 

On 6/25/2020 at 10:10 AM, mike111 said:

If you're determined not to buy for living/investment (or both) and prefer living out of your suitcase during your years while in Thailand then by all means.

I hardly live out of a suitcase. I live quiet comfortably.  I sleep well at night with the knowledge that I can leave Thailand at short notice and have lost nothing, or had nothing taken from me, except for minor possessions.

 

Thailand is a 3rd World country, and is becoming more 3rd World by the day, and that has nothing to do with the virus. 

 

Despite a sham election, a military government is still well and truly in control.  Thailand is now very similar to some African nations in that regard.  Look at the food queues and lack of action by this government.  Do you think they care about a foreigner who has bought a property here, when they don't even care about their own citizens?

 

Things can change with the stroke of a pen in Bangkok.  A simple example could be, for 2022's retirement visa, foreigners now need 1.5 million in a Thai bank, or 120k baht transfer each month.   Can I personally meet those requirements, yes, I can, but I would suggest many could not.  So that leaves a situation where a foreigner can own a property here, but doesn't qualify for the visa to live in it.  Only the naive would think it can not, or will not happen.  

 

You seem to believe you have a "right" to live here.  As I have said in the past, you can have a Thai wife, 3 kids to her, a business, two cars, and a house, but you have no more "rights" here than someone on their first holiday to Thailand on a 30 day visa exemption.  

 

Tell me, where is Thailand's long term commitment to me, to entice me to invest in property here, or not even invest, just buy a property here?

 

Edited June 26, 2020 by Leaver

[Ron jeremy]

$40 k does not buy a condo, it buys a shoebox. I can u.nderstand people living full time buying. I have 2 friends that bought shoe boxes, and can't even get an offer on them as they have chosen to leave. 

And now with the virus etc etc, it's a lot harder. Yes some to OK in the condo market, many do not. Imagine having bought into the Bali pier project? Now that was a great investment. Too many scammers in Thailand not being held accountable. No thanks.

[Rimmer]

A post with unattributed multi quotes has been removed.

 

Please learn to use the quote function when replying and do not multi quote, thank you.

[bert bloggs]

As i posted earlier my wife was in property but would not buy a condo to rent out ,just to many ,but we do have a nice detached house in a big garden ,its on mortgage and the cost is less than if we had to rent it ,mind you i dont own it ,or our car or our furniture ,its all owned by our son and my wife ,God i hope they never put me out on the street, just so many people on here are so negative about things in Thailand .

actually when i pop my clogs our son and his girlfriend will move in here ,now they live at her place. so that will be nice for the wife ,and company .

[Leaver]

6 minutes ago, bert bloggs said:

As i posted earlier my wife was in property but would not buy a condo to rent out ,just to many ,but we do have a nice detached house in a big garden ,its on mortgage and the cost is less than if we had to rent it ,mind you i dont own it ,or our car or our furniture ,its all owned by our son and my wife ,God i hope they never put me out on the street, just so many people on here are so negative about things in Thailand .

actually when i pop my clogs our son and his girlfriend will move in here ,now they live at her place. so that will be nice for the wife ,and company .

You raise n interesting point.  Your wife, who worked in property, said she would not buy a condo to rent out, which is known as an investment property.  Your own property is a family home, do you view it as an investment also?

 

Many here seem to believe the property they are living in is an investment.  The common theory is, if I am not paying rent (the dead money argument again) then it's an investment, but is it?  Your case is slightly different, because you are paying interest, rather than rent.

 

What if the purchase price was invested elsewhere, where it's earning greater than the cost of renting the exact same property? 

 

It has nothing to do with being negative about things in Thailand.  The Thai property market is neither a positive or negative thing about Thailand.  It's simply a market for the purchase of property. 

 

i seem to remember you saying you didn't car about the bahts and satangs, as it was a family home.  I get that. 

 

However, if you can detach yourself from your emotional ties to the property, and looking at it subjectively, do you think the purchase was a good investment?  Eg. capital growth / gain, strong Pattaya property market, easy to sell, low maintenance, low taxes and fees, desirable location etc.  

[bert bloggs]

21 minutes ago, Leaver said:

You raise n interesting point.  Your wife, who worked in property, said she would not buy a condo to rent out, which is known as an investment property.  Your own property is a family home, do you view it as an investment also?

 

Many here seem to believe the property they are living in is an investment.  The common theory is, if I am not paying rent (the dead money argument again) then it's an investment, but is it?  Your case is slightly different, because you are paying interest, rather than rent.

 

What if the purchase price was invested elsewhere, where it's earning greater than the cost of renting the exact same property? 

 

It has nothing to do with being negative about things in Thailand.  The Thai property market is neither a positive or negative thing about Thailand.  It's simply a market for the purchase of property. 

 

i seem to remember you saying you didn't car about the bahts and satangs, as it was a family home.  I get that. 

 

However, if you can detach yourself from your emotional ties to the property, and looking at it subjectively, do you think the purchase was a good investment?  Eg. capital growth / gain, strong Pattaya property market, easy to sell, low maintenance, low taxes and fees, desirable location etc.  

Actually ,it was a very good investment ,as (I SHALL SAY I OK) although its not in my name ,i got it very cheap for what and where it was and its actually worth a fair bit more than was paid for it,but then the wife was in  property ,as is our sons girlfriend so really i am not a good example ,but it is our home and it will be our sons one day as he will live here eventually when i am gone ,and if he should want to sell ,they do sell fairly quickly where we live and for a lot more than i paid  ,

we are lucky in the fact that my wifes family are not poor and she owns quite a bit of land herself and our son runs a company and for a Thai earns very good money.

I hear so many horror stories on here ,but i am not affected by that as are none of my friends ,who have all been married ,like me for such a long time.

[Leaver]

On 6/29/2020 at 4:18 PM, bert bloggs said:

Actually ,it was a very good investment ,as (I SHALL SAY I OK) although its not in my name ,i got it very cheap for what and where it was and its actually worth a fair bit more than was paid for it,but then the wife was in  property ,as is our sons girlfriend so really i am not a good example ,but it is our home and it will be our sons one day as he will live here eventually when i am gone ,and if he should want to sell ,they do sell fairly quickly where we live and for a lot more than i paid  ,

we are lucky in the fact that my wifes family are not poor and she owns quite a bit of land herself and our son runs a company and for a Thai earns very good money.

I hear so many horror stories on here ,but i am not affected by that as are none of my friends ,who have all been married ,like me for such a long time.

Property markets in the tourism areas of Thailand can be difficult to gauge.  You say you picked up your property very cheap, but compared to what?  Is it possible surrounding properties had owners asking unrealistic prices?

 

You seem confident that your son could sell quickly, if he wanted to.  How so?  You know nothing is moving here, and that was pre virus.  Many properties have been on the market for years, with price reduction after price reduction.   

 

In many of your posts you allude to "horror stories."  They are real.  Despite the vast amount of available information, such as books, and the internet, many guys come to Thailand and still get scammed by Thai women.  That said, many western guys lose out in divorce in their home countries as well.  

 

Due to Thailand's foreign ownership of land laws, there are many methods a foreigner can use to at least minimise the risk of losing a property to a Thai woman.  With record low interest rates, the mortgage method, as you are doing, is a good one.     

[Tagged]

Buy gold! 100% safer and better long term investment, and rent your where you wsnt to live!

 

If you buy house you are stuck with maintenence fee, and 5 mill want get you any proper house with a good location anyway! 

[bert bloggs]

44 minutes ago, Leaver said:

Property markets in the tourism areas of Thailand can be difficult to gauge.  You say you picked up your property very cheap, but compared to what?  Is it possible surrounding properties had owners asking unrealistic prices?

 

You seem confident that your son could sell quickly, if he wanted to.  How so?  You know nothing is moving here, and that was pre virus.  Many properties have been on the market for years, with price reduction after price reduction.   

 

In many of your posts you allude to "horror stories."  They are real.  Despite the vast amount of available information, such as books, and the internet, many guys come to Thailand and still get scammed by Thai women.  That said, many western guys lose out in divorce in their home countries as well.  

 

Due to Thailand's foreign ownership of land laws, there are many methods a foreigner can use to at least minimise the risk of losing a property to a Thai woman.  With record low interest rates, the mortgage method, as you are doing, is a good one.     

actually the bank even valued it at a lot more than we paid ,they do sell fairly quickly here, actually one sold six months ago at a higher price than we paid.

I do realize guys get scammed by Thai women ,but then guys get scammed by all sorts of women . my first wife all those years ago ,did me and that was in England ,but its never happened again ,????