Palestinians deserve self-determination but uncertain they can govern themselves - Kushner

[webfact]

Palestinians deserve self-determination but uncertain they can govern themselves - Kushner

By Matt Spetalnick and Katanga Johnson

 

FILE PHOTO: White House senior adviser Jared Kushner, U.S. President Donald Trump's son-in-law, speaks during a discussion on "Inside the Trump Administration's Middle East Peace Effort" at a dinner symposium of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy (WINEP) in Washington, U.S., May 2, 2019. REUTERS/Yuri Gripas/File Photo

 

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - White House senior adviser Jared Kushner said in an interview broadcast on Sunday that the Palestinians deserve "self-determination," but stopped short of backing Palestinian statehood and expressed uncertainty over their ability to govern themselves.

 

Kushner, President Donald Trump's son-in-law and an architect of the White House's yet-to-be-released Middle East peace plan, told the "Axios on HBO" television programme it would be a "high bar" when asked if the Palestinians could expect freedom from Israeli military and government interference.

 

The Palestinian leadership has boycotted a diplomatic effort that Trump has touted as the "deal of the century." Although Kushner has been drafting the plan for two years under a veil of secrecy, it is seen by Palestinian and some Arab officials as tilting heavily in Israel's favour and denying them a state of their own.

 

Kushner again avoided saying explicitly whether the plan would include a two-state solution, the bedrock of U.S. policy for decades, calling for a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, with its capital in East Jerusalem.

 

But he said: "I do think they should have self-determination. I’m going to leave the details until we come out with the actual plan."

 

The Palestinian Authority has said it will not attend a U.S.-sponsored investment conference in late June in Bahrain where the economic component is expected to be unveiled.

 

U.S. officials have been vague about the timing for releasing proposals for resolving the thorny political issues at the core of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. But experts are sceptical of the Trump administration's chances for success.

 

With Israel heading for new elections in September after Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu failed to form a government, uncertainty is expected to further delay the plan's rollout.

 

Asked whether he believed the Palestinians were capable of governing themselves without Israeli interference, Kushner said: "That's a very good question. That's one that we’ll have to see. The hope is that they, over time, will become capable of governing."

 

The Palestinians, he said, "need to have a fair judicial system ... freedom of press, freedom of expression, tolerance for all religions" before the Palestinian areas can become "investable."

 

Asked whether he understood why the Palestinians might not trust him, Kushner said: "I'm not here to be trusted" and that he believed the Palestinian people would judge the plan based on whether "they think this will allow them to have a pathway to a better life or not."

 

The Palestinian leadership has refused to deal with the Trump administration since late 2017 when the president decided to move the U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem from Tel Aviv and recognised Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.

 

Secretary of State Mike Pompeo delivered his assessment of the plan's prospects in a closed-door meeting with Jewish leaders last week, saying: “One might argue” that it is “unexecutable” and it might not “gain traction," according to an audio recording, the Washington Post reported on Sunday.

 

He expressed hope, however, that the deal was not simply dismissed out of hand, the Post reported.

 

“We’re doing our best to help the Middle East to get a peace plan," Trump told reporters when asked about the Pompeo recording. "I understand why (Pompeo) said that. Most people would say it can’t be done. I think it can be done."

 

(Reporting by Matt Spetalnick and Katanga Johnson; Editing by Peter Cooney)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2019-06-03

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[OneMoreFarang]

An American Jew tell the Palestinians what to do or not to do. What could possibly go wrong?

[Morch]

1 hour ago, OneMoreFarang said:

An American Jew tell the Palestinians what to do or not to do. What could possibly go wrong?

 

But if was an American Jew saying what the Palestinians would like to hear, that would be fine? Your issues with Jews aside, do you contend that the observation is incorrect?

[metisdead]

A troll post has been removed. 

[OneMoreFarang]

18 minutes ago, Morch said:

But if was an American Jew saying what the Palestinians would like to hear, that would be fine? Your issues with Jews aside, do you contend that the observation is incorrect?

How many Jews even recognize that someone should listen to the Palestinians?

It's not that I think all Jews are bad. I am sure some of them care and want to live peacefully with their neighbors.

But looking at the way the Jewish country Israel treats their neighbors and looking at the many Jews all over the word who support Israel it seems the majority of Jews are not interested in peace with Palestinians.

 

When Israel was founded many years ago the idea was to have two countries next to each other living in peace with each other. Israel is a country since then and received many many billions from the USA and others - especially military hardware for billions of dollars every year.

The Palestinians still want their own country. And they are treated like s$%* by a huge part of the Jewish population of Israel.

 

It's time for a fair two country solution - not a "deal" by Trumps Jewish family member. The fox and the hen house comes to my mind.

[JimmyTheMook]

3 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

How many Jews even recognize that someone should listen to the Palestinians?

It's not that I think all Jews are bad. I am sure some of them care and want to live peacefully with their neighbors.

But looking at the way the Jewish country Israel treats their neighbors and looking at the many Jews all over the word who support Israel it seems the majority of Jews are not interested in peace with Palestinians.

 

When Israel was founded many years ago the idea was to have two countries next to each other living in peace with each other. Israel is a country since then and received many many billions from the USA and others - especially military hardware for billions of dollars every year.

The Palestinians still want their own country. And they are treated like s$%* by a huge part of the Jewish population of Israel.

 

It's time for a fair two country solution - not a "deal" by Trumps Jewish family member. The fox and the hen house comes to my mind.

 

You losing sleep over this?

 

I ain't 

 

- bless 

[Morch]

1 hour ago, OneMoreFarang said:

How many Jews even recognize that someone should listen to the Palestinians?

It's not that I think all Jews are bad. I am sure some of them care and want to live peacefully with their neighbors.

But looking at the way the Jewish country Israel treats their neighbors and looking at the many Jews all over the word who support Israel it seems the majority of Jews are not interested in peace with Palestinians.

 

When Israel was founded many years ago the idea was to have two countries next to each other living in peace with each other. Israel is a country since then and received many many billions from the USA and others - especially military hardware for billions of dollars every year.

The Palestinians still want their own country. And they are treated like s$%* by a huge part of the Jewish population of Israel.

 

It's time for a fair two country solution - not a "deal" by Trumps Jewish family member. The fox and the hen house comes to my mind.

 

Thanks for confirming your issues with Jews once again.

 

Starting with your loaded question - I wouldn't know, but guess you've got it "figured out". Obviously, Jews who do not see things your way are "bad". Notably, you're not too interested in the other sides's take on this - are Palestinian who aren't interested in your version of peace "bad" as well? How about Muslims worldwide?

 

Your version of history neglects to reference that the Palestinians and sponsor Arab states rejected the original offer, and stuck with the rejectionist position for decades. Many still do. So while you can surely try and paint things as one side into peace and one side isn't, that's not even remotely correct.

 

I'm not expecting the upcoming "deal" to be favorable to the Palestinians. And I've no issue with criticism of the Trump administration on this front. Your bigotry tainted take on this isn't required for it to stick.

 

Saying "it's time for", while ignoring one side's positions is neither helpful nor honest. And still, no real comment as to the opinion appearing in the headline.

[Briggsy]

Kushner is as much a mediator for regional peace as Blair was. They are/were both there to monetize their political power and connections. "Kushner has been drafting his plan under a veil of secrecy" ???? What a crock. The only thing he has been doing under a veil of secrecy is lining his own pockets and banking IOU's so that when Trump is long gone (both from office and this earth) he is wealthy beyond imagination and politically protected with powerful alliances and dirty shared secrets.

 

Kushner has zero political credentials, none. And given his family's close ties to Israeli politicians, he should never have even been appointed if the appointer was acting in good faith. Whatever your views on the situation for Palestinians, you would be a fool to think Kushner is doing anything at all to move towards a solution.

[Morch]

11 minutes ago, Briggsy said:

Kushner is as much a mediator for regional peace as Blair was. They are/were both there to monetize their political power and connections. "Kushner has been drafting his plan under a veil of secrecy" ???? What a crock. The only thing he has been doing under a veil of secrecy is lining his own pockets and banking IOU's so that when Trump is long gone (both from office and this earth) he is wealthy beyond imagination and politically protected with powerful alliances and dirty shared secrets.

 

Kushner has zero political credentials, none. And given his family's close ties to Israeli politicians, he should never have even been appointed if the appointer was acting in good faith. Whatever your views on the situation for Palestinians, you would be a fool to think Kushner is doing anything at all to move towards a solution.

 

Mostly agree.

Where we differ is that I'm sure they have a plan, a deal offer or whatever. And effort have been invested in formulating it. That the end result would probably me underwhelming is another matter. But then it's not like other attempts proved themselves either. As with many Trump administration foreign policy issues, I think the real test is whether they result in lasting or permanent damage. A low benchmark, yes.

[BestB]

The sad reality is he is not wrong but spot on. They have been living on donations for 70-80 years, they can not self govern, internal conflict between fractions on top of corruption.

 

Arafat died with 1 billion dollars in his accounts , money sure as hell did not come from his businesses in the westbank.

 

Neighbors are not really interested in assisting, not that they are a beacon of good governance themselves.

 

There really is no win, perhaps with time and new generation, things may change but under current leadership, i would have to say Kushner is spot on

[DaddyWarbucks]

Before Kushner criticizes the Palestinians for being unable to govern themselves he should see Israel for what it is. The Zionist narrative might have to accept that crimes committed by a state that calls itself 'The Jewish State' and decorates its tanks and warplanes with Jewish symbols may inflict shame on the entire Jewish people. Certainly many Jews are genuinely troubled and distressed by this fact.

Before Kushner condemns Palestinians he should consider preforming the elementary intellectual exercise of examining his argument in a wider context. He should look into the possibility that the Jewish past is an ongoing disaster for a reason. 

If Kushner is interested in learning about rationality, looking introspectively for the logos that has made Jewish history into a chain of pogroms would be a good preparation for his role as a mediator of peace in the Middle East.

[sanemax]

4 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

How many Jews even recognize that someone should listen to the Palestinians?

It's not that I think all Jews are bad. I am sure some of them care and want to live peacefully with their neighbors.

But looking at the way the Jewish country Israel treats their neighbors and looking at the many Jews all over the word who support Israel it seems the majority of Jews are not interested in peace with Palestinians.

 

When Israel was founded many years ago the idea was to have two countries next to each other living in peace with each other. Israel is a country since then and received many many billions from the USA and others - especially military hardware for billions of dollars every year.

The Palestinians still want their own country. And they are treated like s$%* by a huge part of the Jewish population of Israel.

 

It's time for a fair two country solution - not a "deal" by Trumps Jewish family member. The fox and the hen house comes to my mind.

Before you take your seat at the negotiating table and bring peace to the region , you need to do some homework and understand the history and the present .

  Palestinians rejected statehood in 1948  , they didnt want Jewish areas on the land .

Now the present : Palestinians still do not want Jewish areas on the land , they want a hard line Islamic state with Sharia law on every inch of Israel , although they will allow Jews to live there with Palestinian citizenship 

Edited June 3, 2019 by sanemax

[BestB]

11 minutes ago, DaddyWarbucks said:

Before Kushner criticizes the Palestinians for being unable to govern themselves he should see Israel for what it is. The Zionist narrative might have to accept that crimes committed by a state that calls itself 'The Jewish State' and decorates its tanks and warplanes with Jewish symbols may inflict shame on the entire Jewish people. Certainly many Jews are genuinely troubled and distressed by this fact.

Before Kushner condemns Palestinians he should consider preforming the elementary intellectual exercise of examining his argument in a wider context. He should look into the possibility that the Jewish past is an ongoing disaster for a reason. 

If Kushner is interested in learning about rationality, looking introspectively for the logos that has made Jewish history into a chain of pogroms would be a good preparation for his role as a mediator of peace in the Middle East.

How is expressing an opinion which is actually factual is condemning?

Bashing Israel never gets boring from the same old people,so following your logic, Israel is to blame for Arafat stealing billions from the aid?

 

Israel is to blame for Hamas using millions of dollars in aid for war toys instead of governing?

 

Israel also to blame for internal conflicts between Hamas and Fatah?

 

Jewish past is an ongoing disaster precisely because people like you and your mentality.

 

Blame the jews for anything and everything , Arafat stole a billion, well its the jews fault, Hamas fighting with Fatah, well its the jews fault again. Palestinians do not have strong leadership, guess what? its jews again.

[tlandtday]

2 hours ago, BestB said:

The sad reality is he is not wrong but spot on. They have been living on donations for 70-80 years, they can not self govern, internal conflict between fractions on top of corruption.

 

Arafat died with 1 billion dollars in his accounts , money sure as hell did not come from his businesses in the westbank.

 

Neighbors are not really interested in assisting, not that they are a beacon of good governance themselves.

 

There really is no win, perhaps with time and new generation, things may change but under current leadership, i would have to say Kushner is spot on

show some data where arafat had a billion... sounds like cia style propoganda...

[BestB]

4 minutes ago, tlandtday said:

show some data where arafat had a billion... sounds like cia style propoganda...

Well since you struggle with Google, here you go

 

However, in 2003, a team of American accountants—hired by Arafat's own finance ministry—began examining Arafat's finances. In its conclusions, the team claimed that part of the Palestinian leader's wealth was in a secret portfolio worth close to $1 billion, with investments in companies like a Coca-Cola bottling plant in Ramallah, a Tunisian cell phone company and venture capital funds in the US and the Cayman Islands. The head of the investigation stated that "although the money for the portfolio came from public funds like Palestinian taxes, virtually none of it was used for the Palestinian people; it was all controlled by Arafat. And none of these dealings were made public."^[142] An investigation conducted by the General Accounting Office reported that Arafat and the PLO held over $10 billion in assets even at the time when he was publicly claiming bankruptcy.^[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasser_Arafat#Financial_dealings

 

In case its not enough for you

One mystery of Yasser Arafat's life seemed unsolved at the time of his death: How much money did he have, and where is it? In the mid-1990s, Arafat controlled a financial empire worth at least $3 billion. 

 http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,782141,00.html

[tlandtday]

Kushner is obviously far too biased to offer reasonable solutions to the problems.

[impulse]

4 hours ago, Morch said:

Your version of history neglects to reference that the Palestinians and sponsor Arab states rejected the original offer, and stuck with the rejectionist position for decades. Many still do. So while you can surely try and paint things as one side into peace and one side isn't, that's not even remotely correct.

 

As I recall, the "original offer" was just about like robbing a bank, then offering to return a small portion of the loot in return for giving up the rest- take it or leave it.

 

[sanemax]

2 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

As I recall, the "original offer" was just about like robbing a bank, then offering to return a small portion of the loot in return for giving up the rest- take it or leave it.

 

No, this was the partition plan and bear in mind the South is mostly desert .

(Sorry , partition plan above in your post , malfunctioning C&P)

 

 

[impulse]

1 minute ago, sanemax said:

No, this was the partition plan and bear in mind the South is mostly desert .

(Sorry , partition plan above in your post , malfunctioning C&P)

 

That plan was made in 1947.   How did the map look in 1945? 

 

I'll give you a hint.  There was no blue...

 

[BestB]

1 minute ago, impulse said:

 

That plan was made in 1947.   How did the map look in 1945? 

 

I'll give you a hint.  There was no blue...

 

Why stop at 1945? why not go back to 945?

[Dumbastheycome]

5 hours ago, Morch said:

 

But if was an American Jew saying what the Palestinians would like to hear, that would be fine? Your issues with Jews aside, do you contend that the observation is incorrect?

An easy statement with  no detail  of that which the Palestinians "would like to hear"!

Why is  it that the US  is presiding over the confrontation ?

There is something  very strange in the  very  fact that an American Jew  is  fore front  in  what is an international  issue of  concern  when that same  envoy  is the  cock relative  of a narcissist  POTUS.

In light  of  other ongoing  Middle East issues the  game plan is  not difficult  to  dismiss as  just a continuation  of  a  game  in light of  other US   moves  to consolidate  US/ Israeli  conalingist affirmations.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[impulse]

9 minutes ago, BestB said:

Why stop at 1945? why not go back to 945?

 

This chart doesn't go back that far...

 

 

But I think you can extrapolate back to 945. 

 

Jewish folks weren't a majority in the Jewish Homeland since the 4th century.

 

Is it any wonder the Palestinians didn't accept the "original offer", given that the land and sovereignty had just been stolen from them in the previous year or so?  In retrospect, maybe they should have accepted it.  But would you accept an acre from someone who just stole 10 acres from you last year?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region)

 

 

 

 

Edited June 3, 2019 by impulse

[sanemax]

7 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

That plan was made in 1947.   How did the map look in 1945? 

 

I'll give you a hint.  There was no blue...

 

There were over half a million Jews , making 30 % over of the population , living on the land in 1945 .

   Were you suggesting that were no Jews living there in 1945 ? 

[impulse]

19 minutes ago, sanemax said:

There were over half a million Jews , making 30 % over of the population , living on the land in 1945 .

   Were you suggesting that were no Jews living there in 1945 ? 

 

Was it a Jewish (and apartheid) state in 1945? 

 

Edit:  I'm wondering (not really, I've read 1000 posts on the subject) how the guys from the UK would feel if the influx of Muslims into the UK led to a Muslim takeover of their land and to a Sharia government...

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/29/muslim-population-uk-could-triple-13m-following-record-influx/

 

The graph of historic Jewish population in Palestine looks eerily similar...

 

 

Edited June 3, 2019 by impulse

[BestB]

21 minutes ago, Dumbastheycome said:

An easy statement with  no detail  of that which the Palestinians "would like to hear"!

Why is  it that the US  is presiding over the confrontation ?

There is something  very strange in the  very  fact that an American Jew  is  fore front  in  what is an international  issue of  concern  when that same  envoy  is the  cock relative  of a narcissist  POTUS.

In light  of  other ongoing  Middle East issues the  game plan is  not difficult  to  dismiss as  just a continuation  of  a  game  in light of  other US   moves  to consolidate  US/ Israeli  conalingist affirmations.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

US presiding and having voice May have something to do with being main donor to Palestinians for most part of last century and most part of this century to date. 

[BestB]

18 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

This chart doesn't go back that far...

 

 

But I think you can extrapolate back to 945. 

 

Jewish folks weren't a majority in the Jewish Homeland since the 4th century.

 

Is it any wonder the Palestinians didn't accept the "original offer", given that the land and sovereignty had just been stolen from them in the previous year or so?  In retrospect, maybe they should have accepted it.  But would you accept an acre from someone who just stole 10 acres from you last year?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region)

 

 

 

 

It’s funny to read when you say Palestinians , do tell what was the capital of Palestine ?And the currency?

 

then of course there is no letter P in Arabic so they could not possibly be Palestinians , they could have been falestinians or balestinians but most certainly not Palestinians ????

[Dumbastheycome]

2 minutes ago, BestB said:

US presiding and having voice May have something to do with being main donor to Palestinians for most part of last century and most part of this century to date. 

Aha! So show  me!  Feeding a made  poor dog on the  sly is an assumption of  ownership?  Or  is it   just a  component of a very  sad  game  ?

[BestB]

Just now, Dumbastheycome said:

Aha! So show  me!  Feeding a made  poor dog on the  sly is an assumption of  ownership?  Or  is it   just a  component of a very  sad  game  ?

They could have always turned down the aid but they did not .

 

let me guess, it’s jews fault again?

[Dumbastheycome]

2 minutes ago, BestB said:

They could have always turned down the aid but they did not .

 

let me guess, it’s jews fault again?

No. Not the  Jews  fault.  It is the  fault  of those  pandering wrongly to the exclusive  appeal of a sector of  humanity on the  basis  of  exclusive sympathy.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, DaddyWarbucks said:

Before Kushner criticizes the Palestinians for being unable to govern themselves he should see Israel for what it is. The Zionist narrative might have to accept that crimes committed by a state that calls itself 'The Jewish State' and decorates its tanks and warplanes with Jewish symbols may inflict shame on the entire Jewish people. Certainly many Jews are genuinely troubled and distressed by this fact.

Before Kushner condemns Palestinians he should consider preforming the elementary intellectual exercise of examining his argument in a wider context. He should look into the possibility that the Jewish past is an ongoing disaster for a reason. 

If Kushner is interested in learning about rationality, looking introspectively for the logos that has made Jewish history into a chain of pogroms would be a good preparation for his role as a mediator of peace in the Middle East.

 

Now that you got that off your chest....

What does it have to do with question of whether Palestinians are able or unable to govern themselves?