30 year lease

[Humpy]

I had a 30 year lease drawn up by a lawyer. When I went to the local Ampur to get it 'registered' I was told the 'law had changed' and they then said they could only agree to a 10 year lease.  Anybody else had the same rejection ?

[blackcab]

The law has not changed. Someone was not telling you the truth.

 

I would be very, very cautious about this property deal.

 

Moved to the Real Estate forum.

[phantomfiddler]

On 6/29/2019 at 7:10 PM, blackcab said:

The law has not changed. Someone was not telling you the truth.

 

I would be very, very cautious about this property deal.

 

Moved to the Real Estate forum.

I would venture a guess that if the Khamnan were to receive a brown envelope the law would suddenly change to it,s original form ????

[connda]

5 minutes ago, phantomfiddler said:

I would venture a guess that if the Khamnan were to receive a brown envelope the law would suddenly change to it,s original form ????

Amazing how that works at the Amphur level.  Hell, my own lawyer told me that.  
"Khun Connda, I know Westerners hold principle in high regard, but.....500 THB does expedite service.

Now, who am I to disagree?  In the US state I'm from, for an 'extra fee' you can receive 'expedited service' at certain government offices like DMV.  Honestly, what's the difference?  One country legalizes corruption while pointing their finger at the 'corruption' in other countries.  The West is definitely advanced.  if you simply legalize corruption - it's not illegal, so it's not corruption!!! Simple! 
Even in banking and business.  Deregulate.  No more rules, no more corruption.  Simple!
Now morality?   Black - White - Grey... who cares as long as you're bringing home more bacon that the other guys, 'eh?

 

[clonetom]

Quote

Section 540. The duration of a hire of immovable property cannot exceed thirty years. If it is made for a longer period, such period shall be reduced to thirty years. The aforesaid period may be renewed, but it must not exceed thirty years from the time of renewal.

According to Section 540 Thai Civil and Commercial Code, the lease cannot exceed thirty years.

However, just like with superficies, right of habitation and usufruct the final approval lies with the land department (gom tii din) at ampher level.

 

I agree with the above mentioned "service fee" or maybe you need somebody at the department to "measure your land" for a small fee...

[Mister T]

Check the back of the chanote, you will probably find that is 30 years but you have to go back in 10 years to pay the tax again.

[ThomasThBKK]

Maybe it was about something in the lease contract?

 

But yeah, they dislike us, have fun getting a usufruct or other fancy stuff registered without tmoney.

 

which land office was that btw?

[blackcab]

2 hours ago, phantomfiddler said:

I would venture a guess that if the Khamnan were to receive a brown envelope the law would suddenly change to it,s original form ????

 

No, because it has nothing to do with the Khamnan or the Amphur.

 

A lease with a term exceeding 3 years is recorded on the back of a title deed at the Land Office. You will need the owner of the property (or their representative) present at the Land Office to confirm their agreement.

[KKr]

57 minutes ago, blackcab said:

 

No, because it has nothing to do with the Khamnan or the Amphur.

 

A lease with a term exceeding 3 years is recorded on the back of a title deed at the Land Office. You will need the owner of the property (or their representative) present at the Land Office to confirm their agreement.

In case the owner is not to be found in 10 years, would a power of attorney be valid after ten years ?
(it could have been revoked in the meantime, but, nevertheless, better than nothing at all.)

[KhaoYai]

Your lease should be registered at the Land Office, not the Amphur - I presume you mean Land Office? Go to the Land Office with the lawyer, don't mention the first application and let you lawyer handle it (by mentioning the first refusal you are guaranteeing loss of face for the staff member involved - not recommended).

 

The manager of my local Land Office made some kind of fuss when I went to register my Usufruct but my lawyer put her in her place, it was quite amusing to watch - I'm guessing a lawyer is either held equal to a Land Office manager or above. She didn't like it but we left 20 minutes later having registered the Usufuct on the Chanotte. I don't know what the fees are for a lease but mine for registering the Usufruct were very low - I think around 75 baht.

 

You don't need the owner to be present as Blackcab states above as long as they give you a power of attorney and signed copies of their Thai ID card and Tabien Baan. To avoid problems get them to also sign the Tabien Baan of the property you are leasing.

 

Of course your lawyer will charge for this but the job will be done.

[ChipButty]

Just out of interest when did this 30 year lease nonsense come into play? cant be far off coming to expire

[blackcab]

 

2 hours ago, KKr said:

In case the owner is not to be found in 10 years, would a power of attorney be valid after ten years ?
(it could have been revoked in the meantime, but, nevertheless, better than nothing at all.)

 

I'm sorry but I don't understand your question.

[blackcab]

1 hour ago, ChipButty said:

Just out of interest when did this 30 year lease nonsense come into play? cant be far off coming to expire

 

1925

[KKr]

17 hours ago, blackcab said:

 

 

I'm sorry but I don't understand your question.

In other words, would a PoA, issued upon signature of lease, for renewal after 10 and 20 years be valid at that time in the future ?

[blackcab]

23 minutes ago, KKr said:

In other words, would a PoA, issued upon signature of lease, for renewal after 10 and 20 years be valid at that time in the future ?

 

I'm sorry, but I really don't understand what you are asking. Who would the grantee and grantor be? What would the PoA authorise the grantee to do, and for whose benefit?

[KKr]

4 minutes ago, blackcab said:

 

I'm sorry, but I really don't understand what you are asking. Who would the grantee and grantor be? What would the PoA authorise the grantee to do, and for whose benefit?

PoA to, after ten or twenty years when the lease needs to be renewed, sign the lease instead of the owner in case the landowner is on holidays abroad.
so, the owner would make a notarized PoA for a third party authorizing that party to sign a lease contract with Xyz for land parcel 123456 from 11-11-2029 - 2039, 2039-2049 respectively.

Edited July 3, 2019 by KKr

[ricklev]

2 minutes ago, KKr said:

to sign the lease after ten or twenty years when it needs to be renewed.

It doesn't work that way.   Never ever!   You need a thirty year lease.  Renewals are never guaranteed because that is what is called a personal right not a real right.  If the land changes ownership the new owner has no obligation to honor a renewal  It is that simple no matter what anyone tells you.

 

[KKr]

1 minute ago, ricklev said:

a personal right not a real right. 

 

Good point !
also, in case of a PoA it can be revoked and the lessee were left empty-handed.

[blackcab]

2 hours ago, KKr said:

PoA to, after ten or twenty years when the lease needs to be renewed, sign the lease instead of the owner in case the landowner is on holidays abroad.
so, the owner would make a notarized PoA for a third party authorizing that party to sign a lease contract with Xyz for land parcel 123456 from 11-11-2029 - 2039, 2039-2049 respectively.

 

No, that's not possible in any circumstances. The only way to delegate authority is by using a specific Land Office authority letter. The Land Office will not accept any other form of authority letter, PoA, contract, letter from an attorney, etc. The Land Office authority letter is valid for 1 month from the date of signature.

 

In reality nobody would do a 10+10+10 lease. You would either do a short 3+3+3 lease or a 30 year lease with 10 year breaks.

[KhaoYai]

2 hours ago, ricklev said:

You need a thirty year lease.  Renewals are never guaranteed because that is what is called a personal right not a real right.

Not only never guaranteed, they are unlawful.  The Supreme Court decision a couple of years back put an end to leases over 30 years.

 

2 hours ago, ricklev said:

If the land changes ownership the new owner has no obligation to honor a renewal  It is that simple no matter what anyone tells you. 

I take it you are talking about a lease - of which I have little knowledge. However, with a properly registered Usufruct, the owner can be prevented from selling the property or allowed to sell it but the buyer must sign a new Usufruct. It all depends on how the Usufruct is constructed.

[blackcab]

On 7/3/2019 at 5:51 PM, KhaoYai said:

However, with a properly registered Usufruct, the owner can be prevented from selling the property or allowed to sell it but the buyer must sign a new Usufruct. It all depends on how the Usufruct is constructed.

 

This is incorrect. An owner cannot be prevented from selling, and a new buyer cannot be forced to sign a new usufruct.

 

When a piece of land with an extant usufruct is sold the extant usufruct remains on the title deed until it is cancelled or expires.

 

In other words a property with a usufruct registered against it can be sold, but the purchaser must accept and honour the usufruct.