Embassy stat dec with pension information not accepted by immigration office

[Thaidream]

14 hours ago, Tanoshi said:

Secondary proof is now a Thai bank statement showing overseas transfers.

That is not secondary proof and nowhere in the Police Order does it indicate that.  If one has to provide bank transfers to a Thai Bank -that is primary proof.

 

Secondary proof are letters from a pension provider showing amounts and who is paying as well as the payees name and details.  This can be backed up by a Bank Account statement (Foreign or Thai)  showing the exact same amount being direct deposited and if withdrawing from a Thai ATM the exact location of the ATM.

 

If you read the Police Order it shows 3 methods = funds in the bank  or transfer of the funds or the Embassy Letter.  If the intent of the police order was to show only overseas transfers as proof- the police order would have eliminated the Embassy Letter.

 

As far as Immigration being able to read foreign proof of income- Immigration operates in Thai and English- other languages would need a certified translation and the Embassies have a list of all certified translators .

 

 

[perconrad]

1 hour ago, jacko45k said:

They initially stopped doing letters, but I have heard they have re-introduced them with a slightly different format.

The Danish Embassy now only certifies a letter from the pension provider as genuine and it shall be in English for thb 1000, so if you need more than 1 letter certified it is thb 1000 x x, if the letter is in Danish they charge thb 5000 pr letter.

Before we used the tax return for the embassy to write an income letter for thb 1000.

[Stevemercer]

2 hours ago, marcusarelus said:

Why would they want or need to give anyone 12 months notice?

 

Because many Immigration Offices will not give an extension unless you can show 12 months of regular deposits to a Thai bank, despite the fact that the new order is only 6 months old.

 

So even if you re-organised your finances to show a monthly deposit 6 months ago (e.g. as soon as you heard about the new requirement) you will be denied an extension.

 

A classic Catch 22 delivering unnecessary uncertainty, and certainly poor execution of policy.

[emptypockets]

14 hours ago, Tanoshi said:

Such as foreign Pension statements at a guess?

For one they cannot be verified, they come in a variety of languages, can be easily forged, and they can't be used to purchased bread or milk from Big C.

 

Immigration are also now much the wiser that these Embassy Income letters for the most part are worthless and any secondary supporting documents that they can verify are Thai bank statements.

If you can't prove your transferring some funds to Thailand, then how do you support your wife?

From Immigrations point of view, your income could therefore come from working illegally.

 

 

And he could be working perfectly legally.  

 

[emptypockets]

1 hour ago, wtfracing said:

The frustrating part is the time involved in traveling to the embassy and the MFA completing everything as per their rules and requirements only to have it brushed aside because someone choses to make their own interpretation.

But what other choice is there but to adap to want they want so will do the transfer to thai bank account this year and consider alternatives for next years extension or elite option. Thanks for all the replies much appreciated.

What is your plan for this year considering you got knocked back for the extension? 

[Thaidream]

15 hours ago, Tanoshi said:

Such as foreign Pension statements at a guess?

For one they cannot be verified, they come in a variety of languages, can be easily forged, and they can't be used to purchased bread or milk from Big C.

 

Immigration are also now much the wiser that these Embassy Income letters for the most part are worthless and any secondary supporting documents that they can verify are Thai bank statements.

If you can't prove your transferring some funds to Thailand, then how do you support your wife?

From Immigrations point of view, your income could therefore come from working illegally.

How do I support my wife?  I simply go to a Thai ATM and withdraw between 70-100K each month- save the ATM slips-copy them before they fade.  The ATM location shows on my US Bank Statement along with the  exact location of the ATm and amounts.  All this matches my pension letters.  Pretty hard to forge ATM receipts and ATM cards and at one time CW Immigration accepted this as secondary proof and I believe would accept today if asked,

Edited July 9, 2019 by Thaidream

[johnmcc6]

They want rock solid details of where the money claimed in the stat deck came from. Bank statements for past 12 months showing monthly overseas deposits and amounts.

[wtfracing]

11 minutes ago, emptypockets said:

What is your plan for this year considering you got knocked back for the extension? 

They told me to open bank account and come back in 2 months with thai bank statement showing 40,000 deposit from overseas and they will accept that so will do that method for this extension but will  change to fixed deposit amount or elite for next years extension unless we decide to move on.

[berrec]

All very well constructed points by OPs, but at the end of the day my friend you are at the mercy of these Immigration boofheads that decide what they want from you.... they often make up their own rules to suit the situation at hand.

 

From my experience and IMHO they want to push you to agents and not have to deal with you directly in addition building up their tea money chests. 

 

They are a law unto themselves and you have no recourse to argue facts or logic with them.

 

They are superior to you aa a Farang and they want to make sure you understand they are your masters.

 

Many of them I have dealt with and feedback on forum posts indicate to me, they lack very little if any sense of logic!  

[StevieAus]

13 hours ago, wtfracing said:

Actually it was foreign bank statements showing pension deposits and withdrawals in Thailand every 2 weeks but  I  suppose even that would not suit your agenda.

Also I dont make the rules regarding the documents regarding the income letters I just follow what is the law made by immigration and  what they allow but found out today each office do what they like but thanks for your input.

 

Unfortunately, but I am sure if you have lived here seven years you would know that each office make their own rules and change them.

I live in Chiang Province and our local DLT office now will not accept the Pink ID card for renewing the drivers licence but the Head Office will I had to get the residency certificate from Immigration this year.

Also the rules for the retirement extension regarding documents seem to vary each year.

In order to avoid the frustration I now check the requirements before making the application for anything, because you will never win the argument.

 

[Thaidream]

24 minutes ago, RobboR said:

How many times are you going to regurgitate the same rubbish.

They deemed it would be impossible to comply with Thailand's ridiculous demands due to data protection laws. 

Really?  Then why did the Danish Embassy re-establish their letter and the other 80 Embassies in Thailand basically changed nothing and the letters are mostly accepted except at a few rogue Imm offices.

 

It's easy to comply with- show the consul a few pieces of paper proving income; then take an Oath under penalty of perjury that it is correct.  Go the Immigration office.  The remaining 3- just refuse to do it/

[rickudon]

Well at least they did give him an option of only 2 months of transfers for this year, could have just left him in the lurch. It is due to this uncertainty of what they will accept that made me decide to go the 400,000 in the bank route for next year. Good thing too, as UK banks are getting paranoid about money laundering, scams etc. and have had 2 transfers from my bank to Transferwise declined in the last year. Extra checks as of June 1st can now be made, and if you are out of country may be hard to meet them. So far only done once (that i know of) to me, but the future? Who knows. Just more uncertainty to deal with.

[perconrad]

13 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

Really?  Then why did the Danish Embassy re-establish their letter and the other 80 Embassies in Thailand basically changed nothing and the letters are mostly accepted except at a few rogue Imm offices.

 

It's easy to comply with- show the consul a few pieces of paper proving income; then take an Oath under penalty of perjury that it is correct.  Go the Immigration office.  The remaining 3- just refuse to do it/

You are wrong informed.

 

The Danish Embassy did not re-establish their letter.

 

Look at my post #32

 

[marcusarelus]

50 minutes ago, RobboR said:

How many times are you going to regurgitate the same rubbish.

They deemed it would be impossible to comply with Thailand's ridiculous demands due to data protection laws. 

If Thailand made ridiculous demands why did only 3 embassies take notice of it?  No I think on close examination the changes were initiated by the embassies and not Thailand - proof that only 3 have eliminated letters.  

[Tanoshi]

4 hours ago, UKresonant said:

But,

they have not given 12 months notice of withdrawing, the Embassy letter acceptance,

They gave notice and the reasons for stopping the service.

 

4 hours ago, UKresonant said:

For many it is like pantomimes when trying to open a Bank account to provide that type of secondary proof. Must have a work permit etc.

In my experience that's because most don't read the requirements of the bank in the first place.

 

4 hours ago, UKresonant said:

The average income may be do-able but the same amount every month after tax, from a pension, similar ball park perhaps.

If it is an annuity, the contract could have been set up quarterly.

The required monthly income of 40K or 65K hasn't changed for years.

I have an annuity that is paid quarterly, but how does that prevent me from making 3 times monthly transfers.

 

4 hours ago, UKresonant said:

If you were arranging your financial affairs for the perhaps 10years ahead with the dream of coming to Thailand, you can't anticipate the changes that pop-up,

The only change in the last 10 years affecting incomes are exchange rates.

 

4 hours ago, UKresonant said:

e.g. Non O ME financials (London, though not enforced), £1400/month, so allow £1470 say, index linked, write out the form (for first renewal), changed to £1500, ok could prove that.....

15 months in and they announce they are discontinuing the ME visa type!

Why do you think the Non O ME has been removed as a choice from the E-Visa application system?

[Tanoshi]

4 hours ago, lopburi3 said:

Because they are asking people to provide a different type of proof for a period of 12 months perhaps? 

The Embassies maintained transfers to a Thai bank had always been an alternative option as proof of income as opposed to Embassy Income letters.

TI amend the orders to reflect as much.

[Tanoshi]

3 hours ago, kingstonkid said:

Not sure maybe JOE can advise but \could it be that it was handwritten that was the issue.  Handwriting is not quite ad official looking as a typed and signed document on official letterhead.

 

As to those that think the embassies do not check go to the Canadian Embassy.  

 

2 hours ago, dsj said:

You are right, last October the Canadian Embassy wanted to see my latest tax return before they would issue an income verification letter.

The Canadian Embassy cannot verify (authenticate) any documentary proof you may provide in support of your claimed incomes. Data protection prevents any authentication because it protects your personal information.

We supplied supporting documents to the UK Embassy, which was accepted in good faith and at face value only, but it couldn't be authenticated by the Embassy.

[rhodie]

Well, just to throw a spanner in the works, I know of a case where a bank letter with statements of 12 overseas deposits greater than 65k was not allowed as proof because the individual was Canadian and they wanted the letter from his embassy. (Jomtien Immigration Office) I mean come on, it's a total dogs breakfast. You can't defend stupid.

[Thaidream]

1 hour ago, Tanoshi said:

The only change in the last 10 years affecting incomes are exchange rates.

While technically correct= for retirement- one has to now keep 800K in a Thai bank for 5 months and 400K forever- therefore it will cost more as one has to have added income to live on.

 

The whole purpose of the 800K was to provide sufficient funds for the year- not to serve as some type of security bond.    Thai Imm has tried to merge 2 things together- proof of income and money in the bank. It's a completely unfair system. The Police Order gives 3 choices- Money in the bank or 65K/40K per month OR the Embassy Letter.  One or the other not both.

 

As far as the Embassy Letters- if one shows the Embassy a letter from an Income source as proof and then swears under Oath it is true per penalty of perjury- which if lying is the commission of a crime- is enough to satisfy court and Government issues in our home countries, and the Thai Immigration police order. 

 

That the 3 Embassies in question refuse to do what is asked (for whatever spurious reason they state) and the other 80 or so Embassies still issue the letters and are mostly still accepted proves that the 3 Embassies are  blowing smoke.

[Thaidream]

1 hour ago, Tanoshi said:

Why do you think the Non O ME has been removed as a choice from the E-Visa application system?

Why should someone who is working abroad and visits his family in Thailand several times per year be forced to obtain a Non O Visa single entry each time.  The proper Visa is a Non O  and the ME is the proper for,mat.  

 

Interestingly enough the Thai Embassy in Singapore has an online system which allows for uploading of docs and also allows for a Non O ME for those married to Thai citizens as long as the applicant is from a G20 country- 

[marcusarelus]

9 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

The whole purpose of the 800K was to provide sufficient funds for the year- not to serve as some type of security bond.   

An Imm guy told me years ago it was to make sure bums did not retire in Thailand.  Is there some kind of Immigration document that says it is for living funds?

[UKresonant]

1 hour ago, Tanoshi said:

They gave notice and the reasons for stopping the service. 

When did they give any notice to the OP? (wasn't talking about myself, I had intended using the non-O ME, until 2021, though I will go down from two cars to one car on the road in the UK, when I go back in August, progressive adjustment ????)

[Thaidream]

3 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

An Imm guy told me years ago it was to make sure bums did not retire in Thailand.  Is there some kind of Immigration document that says it is for living funds?

I have no idea but logic tells me if Immigration believes 65K per month is sufficient to live on in Thailand the most logical reason for 800K is also to live on in Thailand for the year.  The problem is that now one needs more than 800K to live on if doing the money in the bank as the 800K is blocked for 5 months so an applicant needs to have another income stream to live on.

 

If the Imm Officer told you it was to keep bums out and used those words- I  would say he has a good grasp of English  and could easily be able to review any type of document in the English language and understand it.

[marcusarelus]

6 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

I have no idea but logic tells me if Immigration believes 65K per month is sufficient to live on in Thailand the most logical reason for 800K is also to live on in Thailand for the year.  The problem is that now one needs more than 800K to live on if doing the money in the bank as the 800K is blocked for 5 months so an applicant needs to have another income stream to live on.

 

If the Imm Officer told you it was to keep bums out and used those words- I  would say he has a good grasp of English  and could easily be able to review any type of document in the English language and understand it.

I believe he used the words, "puchai joan" or something like that.  If it was to live on would not they have upped the rate in 10 years due to inflation?

[UKresonant]

13 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

Interestingly enough the Thai Embassy in Singapore has an online system which allows for uploading of docs and also allows for a Non O ME for those married to Thai citizens as long as the applicant is from a G20 country- 

That's interesting, I'll have a look at that ????. (along with HCMC)

[Thaidream]

5 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

I believe he used the words, "puchai joan" or something like that.  If it was to live on would not they have upped the rate in 10 years due to inflation?

yes- it means 'poor people'.  If it's not to live on what is it for?   The level of 65K is more than sufficient for foreigners to live in Thailand given the cost of food and lodging.  I doubt whether the cost of alcohol or bar fines are included. 

[chilly07]

They only stopped income letters at the end of 2018 so they can't expect a full year of monthly income declaration's from a bank by July!

[Pumpuynarak]

 

I've just returned from Korat IO where wifey and i spoke to the Chief IO to inform her that i could'nt evidence that my transfers had come from the UK by way of TW due to the fact they were not coded when credited to my SCB account as FRC (from abroad)

I took all my SCB bank statements (all printed off by me) from Jan this year to July together with the TW PDF's (all printed off by me) she had a good look and said "don't worry" all we want to see is that you are transferring money each month into your SCB account from abroad and she said that i can see from the evidence you have supplied.

I did inform her that in future (August onwards) i will do a swift transfer from my HSBC UK account direct into my SCB account here and that will show as a foreign transaction, she was happy and once again said "don't worry". I'll have to just put up with the higher charges and bad exchange rate from SCB.

 

I think wifey had a good chat to her and said we've been married 13 years and living together here in Thailand and always transferred the money monthly from the UK and she did'nt want to lose her husband lol   

 

[chilly07]

Also an expat can sign a waiver on data protection! The "embassies" in question could not reach an acceptable "arrangement" with TI for the letters to continue!

[chilly07]

I uploaded all my docs to the TI website last July and am still waiting for a response!