Thanathorn admits Thais cannot rely on foreigners to fight for democracy

[Joker Man]

Common guys.. don't you all know that Thailand is number one'' you can ask a Thai friend.

[Fex Bluse]

3 minutes ago, White Christmas13 said:

Yes I like to know that as well why does he talk to me? he knows I am a farang

and I am on his friends list

Surely you guys don't simply take politicians, and ESPECIALLY Thai ones, at their usually hollow words, right? 

[Joker Man]

2 minutes ago, Fex Bluse said:

Surely you guys don't simply take politicians, and ESPECIALLY Thai ones, at their usually hollow words, right? 

Yes some of us don't know and we only realized at the end.

[White Christmas13]

13 minutes ago, Fex Bluse said:

Surely you guys don't simply take politicians, and ESPECIALLY Thai ones, at their usually hollow words, right? 

Those what you call simple politician make more sense than you ever will

[JonnyF]

I really don't know what his angle is with this. Why is he even mentioning foreigners? Is it at attempt to blame the foreign community for not helping them or is it a way to encourage Thais themselves to stand up to the regime without implicitly saying it and risking a jail term for "spreading disharmomy" or whatever Prayut calls it? Either way, it's a Thai problem for Thai people to sort out, I don't really see Thailand spending it's resources to help other nations with their problems so I'm not sure what they are expecting from other nations.

 

It would be a bit like Boris Johnson stating that "we can't expect the Thai nation to resolve Brexit for us, we must do it ourselves". It's so obvious that it's meaningless, it's fatuous.

 

Even if foreign powers tried to help I believe most Thais would tell them to stop interfering in Thailand's internal issues. So yes it is up to Thailand to resolve the problem of the Thai military's interference in Thai politics but I won't be holding my breath.

[petemoss]

32 minutes ago, Fex Bluse said:

Thais, as a rule, don't communicate directly. 

 

Their communication must be 'read between the lines'.

 

I regard his 'foreigners will not help' statements not for their face value but as saying,

 

" there is no need for us to rely on foreigner powers, and I am not relying on foreign powers, and we all know foreign powers should not meddle in Thai affairs " 

 

I think we know how the elite are rabid anti foreigner in this regard, so I interpret his statements thusly. 

 

Thais are not westerners. They don't mean what they say. 

So you think he's pandering to the Thai Elite? If that's true, and I personally don't think he is, that's him written off in my book.

 

"Their communication must be 'read between the lines'." Really? You think Thais are capable of innuendo?

They take everything at face value. Have you ever watched Thai comedy? It's all slapstick, Mr Bean is the most famous foreign celebrity in Thailand, his comedy is perfect for them, no words just slapstick.

[Fex Bluse]

8 minutes ago, White Christmas13 said:

Those what you call simple politician make more sense than you ever will

Can you critique my argument, please? 

 

I am not interested in attacking each other. 

 

Thank you 

[newatthis]

25 minutes ago, scorecard said:

  ?

 

So how about answering my question:

 

So what do you think his (Khun Thanathorn's) democracy is?

 

Maybe "his democracy" is basically getting rid of the Senate and the junta together with discarding this Constitution. I hope he has thought past these negative objectives to building a positive. To paraphrase a Biblical expression; "After you drive out the negatives, you have to put in positives else the negatives will return worse than before."

[ramr]

As a matter of strategy and optics, foreigners inside and outside the country cannot be seen as interfering.  

 

And yet a democracy suited to this country cannot be built by only by Thais who know only life inside Thailand.  It will also need the input of smart, caring, selfless, educated Thais who have live/been educated abroad and wish to adapt the best foreign ideas to make their own country better without trying to make it a clone of Western democracies.  And they will need to be able to make their case to the Thai people that some difficult changes are necessary to move forward and do not represent the end of Thai culture.  Just the end of some of the  attitudes and institutions that are holding them back.

 

Sounds idealistic, I know, and it's a high bar, but these Thais do exist, and in increasing numbers, I think.  And hope.

 

 

[Sydebolle]

This is and remains a domestic problem, an issue to be solved by Thais for Thais - exclusively. 

Foreigners, nastily called "alien" or "farang" have been an eyesore in many Thais view and if not for the money they would have kicked all of us out long time ago. We are more democratic and possibly better educated which is absolutely contradictory to the oligarch elite's way of cheating the majority of the Thai electorate. Latter does not care as they were told from Day 1 to shut up, listen to the Pooyais, the elder, richer, higher positioned and untouchables. Entire Thailand is connected to each other by a rotten system of "pi" and "nong" where connection and not ability and skills count. 

Hence Mr Thanathorn is well advised to listen and study how non-Asian countries work but then look for a Thai version of democracy. The system I've been living in this country for the last 35 years is provenly disastrous and the abyss is around the corner. 

In closing, this is Thailand, the Land of the Thais and we alien, farang, kaek, jeck and whatever other names Khon Thai has for all the lesser races, we shut up and keep our mouth closed for good reason. Thanathorn did not manage the first time, might fail on the second time but over time it will be a new generation setting the records straight and in line with the needs of Thai people in the 21st century - unless that is too late already as far as education, riddance of corruption and patronization is concerned. We will see ........ good luck Thailand, you will need LOTS of it! 

[Eligius]

16 minutes ago, ramr said:

As a matter of strategy and optics, foreigners inside and outside the country cannot be seen as interfering.  

 

And yet a democracy suited to this country cannot be built by only by Thais who know only life inside Thailand.  It will also need the input of smart, caring, selfless, educated Thais who have live/been educated abroad and wish to adapt the best foreign ideas to make their own country better without trying to make it a clone of Western democracies.  And they will need to be able to make their case to the Thai people that some difficult changes are necessary to move forward and do not represent the end of Thai culture.  Just the end of some of the  attitudes and institutions that are holding them back.

 

Sounds idealistic, I know, and it's a high bar, but these Thais do exist, and in increasing numbers, I think.  And hope.

 

 

Good post, Ramr (above).

I think the Thai who perhaps best fits the description you give of the Thai type to lead Thailand forward is, in fact, Thanathorn. He is Western-educated, anti-militarist, and progressive - but has not turned his back on his own oppressed people (unlike so many selfish M.A.s and Ph.D.s whom I know - who support Dictatorship) ....

 

 

 

Edited July 17, 2019 by Eligius

[scorecard]

13 minutes ago, ramr said:

As a matter of strategy and optics, foreigners inside and outside the country cannot be seen as interfering.  

 

And yet a democracy suited to this country cannot be built by only by Thais who know only life inside Thailand.  It will also need the input of smart, caring, selfless, educated Thais who have live/been educated abroad and wish to adapt the best foreign ideas to make their own country better without trying to make it a clone of Western democracies.  And they will need to be able to make their case to the Thai people that some difficult changes are necessary to move forward and do not represent the end of Thai culture.  Just the end of some of the  attitudes and institutions that are holding them back.

 

Sounds idealistic, I know, and it's a high bar, but these Thais do exist, and in increasing numbers, I think.  And hope.

 

 

 I totally agree they do exist and I put Khun Thanathorn near the top of that list.

[scorecard]

4 minutes ago, Sydebolle said:

This is and remains a domestic problem, an issue to be solved by Thais for Thais - exclusively. 

Foreigners, nastily called "alien" or "farang" have been an eyesore in many Thais view and if not for the money they would have kicked all of us out long time ago. We are more democratic and possibly better educated which is absolutely contradictory to the oligarch elite's way of cheating the majority of the Thai electorate. Latter does not care as they were told from Day 1 to shut up, listen to the Pooyais, the elder, richer, higher positioned and untouchables. Entire Thailand is connected to each other by a rotten system of "pi" and "nong" where connection and not ability and skills count. 

Hence Mr Thanathorn is well advised to listen and study how non-Asian countries work but then look for a Thai version of democracy. The system I've been living in this country for the last 35 years is provenly disastrous and the abyss is around the corner. 

In closing, this is Thailand, the Land of the Thais and we alien, farang, kaek, jeck and whatever other names Khon Thai has for all the lesser races, we shut up and keep our mouth closed for good reason. Thanathorn did not manage the first time, might fail on the second time but over time it will be a new generation setting the records straight and in line with the needs of Thai people in the 21st century - unless that is too late already as far as education, riddance of corruption and patronization is concerned. We will see ........ good luck Thailand, you will need LOTS of it! 

nice comments.

"Hence Mr Thanathorn is well advised to listen and study how non-Asian countries work but then look for a Thai version of democracy."  Can I suggest folks do further reading about Khun Thanathorn' extensive & comprehensive education in several other countries, also his past statements about reducing the gap, his past activities with the poor and disadvantaged.

 

Further he has brought into his party balanced clever, humble people who speak well, have civil society as their anchor point etc. Folks with past baggage are not accepted. 

 

 

He impresses me, I think he's the person.

 

[Reigntax]

2 hours ago, soalbundy said:

really? they have done away with legal aid for a start so only if you have money could you sue a government department that withholds your rights. As the American saying goes, "Capital punishment is for those that don't have the capital"

Why should the public pay for civil litigation?

Given the bar for a successful civil claim is " on the balance of probability" if you cannot present a case having a reasonable chance of success, then you have no case or claim.

 

If you had a case, with any reasonable chance of success, you would have no problems being adequately represented either pro bono or on a fee for win situation.

 

The problem is most people can only see what matters to them and not what the laws allow.

 

[lipflipper]

This clown and Thaksin clone finally came to that rather obvious conclusion?? Unbelievable just how ignorant and ill prepared he is for any Public Office. Seem like every time he opens his yap dribble just comes out.

Sent from my CMR-AL19 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Mavideol]

7 hours ago, webfact said:

 

“We cannot get this society from the international community

like you didn't get the military junta from the international neither, all done by Thais as it should

[Reigntax]

3 hours ago, soalbundy said:

So ? Name me any country that has real democracy ( a mythical word that is) I can remember a wise old man in the UK when I was doing my apprenticeship telling me ;- "When industry is booming you will be forced to do all the overtime possible, when there is a recession you will be unemployed and when there is war you will be stuck in a uniform and told to kill some poor sod like yourself or be killed for a group of champagne scoffing elites safe in London"

Every country where the people have their say and the voice of the majority is upheld by law.

Every country where the military is commanded and acts according to the peoples wishes or their elected representatives.

 

Your old wise man is not so wise. He is just a lazy old man looking to blame others for his own inability to be successful in life.

[scorecard]

3 minutes ago, lipflipper said:

This clown and Thaksin clone finally came to that rather obvious conclusion?? Unbelievable just how ignorant and ill prepared he is for any Public Office. Seem like every time he opens his yap dribble just comes out.

Sent from my CMR-AL19 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Totally incorrect.

[Eligius]

29 minutes ago, scorecard said:

Totally incorrect.

I don't know how some people can think that Thanathorn is a mini-me version of Thaksin. He is very different. 

Firstly, Thaksin famously said that 'democracy is not my goal'. Well, it is very much Thanathorn's goal (or a major portion of his goal). 

Next, I have never heard Thaksin in the past constantly, from the very start, and as a fundamental  political principle deplore the incursion of the military into Thai politics. Thanathorn makes this a central plank of his policies - keeping the military permanently OUT of Thai politics.

Thirdly, Thanathorn is on record as criticising the way Thaksin conducted business when he was P.M. Thanathorn speaks out against corruption in a clear way. 

Fourthly, many of the Red Shirts (even Thaksin himself) have made statements over the years that were anti-gay. Thanathorn is progressive - believing in giving fairness to ALL sections of society, including gays, women and the disabled.

Fithly, Thanathorn spent many years actively concerned with, and working towards, the betterment of foreign poor peoples and their lot. From his student days onwards, he has shown a lot of humanitarian concern. I did not see that with Thaksin (although of course he is infinitely better than what Thailand has suffered for the past 5+ years and did significantly impact the lives of poorer Thais and give them a voice).

So: is Thanathorn a Thaksin clone?

Hardly!

Yet now they are both united against the militarists. And that can only be a good (and long overdue) thing.

 

 

 

Edited July 17, 2019 by Eligius

[JAG]

4 hours ago, phantomfiddler said:

Never heard anything so ridiculous. We are treated like scum by the authorities, we have absolutely no rights whatsoever, and they talk about us not helping them ? What a bunch of ungrateful rabble we are !

I don't think that is what he means. No doubt something was (as so often) lost in translation, but I suspect that he means is that it is up to the Thais to fight for and win democracy, not to rely on foreigners to arrange it for them. Seems quite sensible.

[tifino]

... anyhows, you don't fight for democracy - you vote for it

 

 You fight for liberty, justice, etc etc - and that is a job for Superman

[Fex Bluse]

50 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

I really don't know what his angle is with this. Why is he even mentioning foreigners? Is it at attempt to blame the foreign community for not helping them or is it a way to encourage Thais themselves to stand up to the regime without implicitly saying it and risking a jail term for "spreading disharmomy" or whatever Prayut calls it? Either way, it's a Thai problem for Thai people to sort out, I don't really see Thailand spending it's resources to help other nations with their problems so I'm not sure what they are expecting from other nations.

 

It would be a bit like Boris Johnson stating that "we can't expect the Thai nation to resolve Brexit for us, we must do it ourselves". It's so obvious that it's meaningless, it's fatuous.

 

Even if foreign powers tried to help I believe most Thais would tell them to stop interfering in Thailand's internal issues. So yes it is up to Thailand to resolve the problem of the Thai military's interference in Thai politics but I won't be holding my breath.

Exactly, as I hinted at in earlier posts. 

 

There is more to the obvious statements than their face value. 

 

And, anyway, Thai communication famously happen with meaning highly dependent on context and requiring lots of interpretation of vague statements. 

 

It's fascinating that long time westerners in Thailand (or any part of Asia) haven't understood this. One would have to try very hard to ignore this fact. 

[ramr]

1 hour ago, petemoss said:

So you think he's pandering to the Thai Elite? If that's true, and I personally don't think he is, that's him written off in my book.

 

"Their communication must be 'read between the lines'." Really? You think Thais are capable of innuendo?

They take everything at face value.

1.  Not pandering, just wisely getting ahead of the predictable and potent criticism  that will come his way from the folks at the trough seeking to discredit him with the Thai people at large.   He's trying to take away their ammo before they can use it.  But it's not just spin... it also happens to be the truth: Thailand is on its own.  On the world stage, they're not economically/strategically/economically important enough for the Western democracies to stick their neck out and try to engineer a regime change.  Now if they had oil, say....

 

2.  There are channels of Thai discourse that incredibly nuanced and ones that are not.  Don't let the wacky sound effects and pratfalls on a TV pablum medium for the masses fool ya.

Edited July 17, 2019 by ramr

[ramr]

46 minutes ago, Eligius said:

Good post, Ramr (above).

I think the Thai who perhaps best fits the description you give of the Thai type to lead Thailand forward is, in fact, Thanathorn. He is Western-educated, anti-militarist, and progressive - but has not turned his back on his own oppressed people (unlike so many selfish M.A.s and Ph.D.s whom I know - who support Dictatorship) ....

 

 

 

Thank you.

 

There's a special place in hell for those educated people who know better and still cynically support dictatorship.  Not that having an M.A. or Ph.D. from a Thai university necessarily means you would know better or should be considered "educated."

 

Another problem is the brain and know-how drain from this country by those Thais who go abroad, have their eyes opened, and then don't return because they understandably don't want to deal with all the Mickey Mouse BS here.

[geoffbezoz]

3 hours ago, Orton Rd said:

They were getting organized in 2010 before the army shot over 90 dead in the street and since then it has been illegal for more than 5 to gather to demonstrate, it's not that they have not tried but each time they do they get kicked down.

I agree and 2010 should have been the start. Unfortunately to remove a corrupt regime often involves a prolonged fight with many making the ultimate sacrifice. The Thai military have a past history of killing innocent people, knowing full well that up to 200 will scare most Thais away. They should look  to other countries as examples of what is required.  However strategically you never kill a snake by grabbing its tail, you have to cut its head of first.

[geoffbezoz]

33 minutes ago, Eligius said:

I don't know how some people can think that Thanathorn is a mini-me version of Thaksin. He is very different. 

Firstly, Thaksin famously said that 'democracy is not my goal'. Well, it is very much Thanathorn's goal (or a major portion of his goal). 

Next, I have never heard Thaksin in the past constantly, from the very start, and as a fundamental  political principle deplore the incursion of the military into Thai politics. Thanathorn makes this a central plank of his policies - keeping the military permanently OUT of Thai politics.

Thirdly, Thanathorn is on record as criticising the way Thaksin conducted business when he was P.M. Thanathorn speaks out against corruption in a clear way. 

Fourthly, many of the Red Shirts (even Thaksin himself) have made statements over the years that were anti-gay. Thanathorn is progressive - believing in giving fairness to ALL sections of society, including gays, women and the disabled.

Fithly, Thanathorn spent many years actively concerned with, and working towards, the betterment of foreign poor peoples and their lot. From his student days onwards, he has shown a lot of humanitarian concern. I did not see that with Thaksin (although of course he is infinitely better than what Thailand has suffered for the past 5+ years and did significantly impact the lives of poorer Thais and give them a voice).

So: is Thanathorn a Thaksin clone?

Hardly!

Yet now they are both united against the militarists. And that can only be a good (and long overdue) thing.

 

 

 

I remain to be convinced about Thanathorn's true motives. On the face of it he could be the younger person to lead Thailand forward.  However given his families fabulous wealth, and we all know that no family makes that money or grow a business to that extent without bum licking to those above and not to mention "donations" to facilitate governmental approvals,  just how much of this has rubbed off on Thanathorn.  Like Shinawatra before him, is he just identifying himself with those that really care , whilst behind the scenes perhaps have other motives ?  But I hope I am 100% wrong.

[Eligius]

10 minutes ago, ramr said:

Thank you.

 

There's a special place in hell for those educated people who know better and still cynically support dictatorship.  Not that having an M.A. or Ph.D. from a Thai university necessarily means you would know better or should be considered "educated."

 

Another problem is the brain and know-how drain from this country by those Thais who go abroad, have their eyes opened, and then don't return because they understandably don't want to deal with all the Mickey Mouse BS here.

Excellent post, Ramr.

Unfortunately, and appallingly, I have met quite a number of Thais who gained their Ph.D.s in the West and who support Dictatorship. 

 

I cannot adequately express the contempt and disdain I feel for such unbelievably selfish types ...

[usviphotography]

The whole fetish over "Democracy" is silly and misplaced. What you need to focus on is good government. The two best led Asian nations over the past century have been Japan and Singapore. Japan was a one party state for most of that time and Singapore a quasi-dictatorship. Discussion of how much better Vietnam is than Thailand nowadays is rife on this forum. Nobody complains about Vietnam having no Democracy whatsoever. 

 

Whether it is a monarchy, oligarchy, dictatorship, military junta, republic, or democracy, the fundamental marker of a government is its effectiveness in creating a good country. Instead of the constant bickering over the form of government, more focus should be placed on working together to identify problems and promote solutions. 

[NCC1701A]

OK Thai people. Help is on the way. I just authorized the first wave. Today is not a good day to go to immigration offices.

 

 

[Eligius]

9 minutes ago, usviphotography said:

The whole fetish over "Democracy" is silly and misplaced. What you need to focus on is good government. The two best led Asian nations over the past century have been Japan and Singapore. Japan was a one party state for most of that time and Singapore a quasi-dictatorship. Discussion of how much better Vietnam is than Thailand nowadays is rife on this forum. Nobody complains about Vietnam having no Democracy whatsoever. 

 

Whether it is a monarchy, oligarchy, dictatorship, military junta, republic, or democracy, the fundamental marker of a government is its effectiveness in creating a good country. Instead of the constant bickering over the form of government, more focus should be placed on working together to identify problems and promote solutions. 

Interesting points. BUT how can 'more focus be placed on working together and identifying problems and solutions' when under a Dictatorship no one is allowed even to speak of those very real and ongoing problems, let alone put forward radical measures to solve them?

And you cannot get rid of a dictatorship. That is the problem. They cannot simply and easily be booted out of power.

(Some people are seeing this first-hand in a certain part of the world today ....).