Fingerprinting at airport: data storage ?

[manarak]

Thailand introduced fingerprinting at airports - I have a question about what is done with the fingerprints.

 

Obvious use is comparison with a database of "bad people's" known fingerprints. OK.

 

But what happens with the fingerprints if there is no match in the database?

Are they being erased or are they being stored?

 

Will Thai immigration keep a record in their database with your passport details and full fingerprints?

 

[jackdd]

They store them in their database, together with your passport, probably forever.

The first time you have to scan all ten fingers. After this usually you have to scan only 4 fingers of the right hand.

 

[Caldera]

They will be stored. At the very least, to compare them to fingerprints submitted by (presumably) the same person later. Other use cases also come to mind.

[Matzzon]

They are of course stored. That will make them find you if you break the law and leave them at the same place. Exactly like fingerprint databases all over the world. Nothing strange at all, and nothing that law abiding persons need to worry about.

[OneMoreFarang]

Does it really matter?

What would you do if you know they store them in a simple database and lots of people could access them?

a) Would you not come to Thailand anymore to avoid this?

b) Would you complain somewhere and/or insist they don't do that?

Accept it. TiT!

 

[overherebc]

10 minutes ago, Matzzon said:

They are of course stored. That will make them find you if you break the law and leave them at the same place. Exactly like fingerprint databases all over the world. Nothing strange at all, and nothing that law abiding persons need to worry about.

Mine have been on record in UK since 1968-ish. Black ink and card type. I am assuming they have been scanned now and are on a database.

Don't see a problem.

[NCC1701A]

39 minutes ago, manarak said:

But what happens with the fingerprints if there is no match in the database?

Are they being erased or are they being stored?

of course they are being stored. in the future you might try to return to Thailand under a false name.

along with a photo of you for facial recognition. The question is are the systems fast enough to compare your information in real time?

perhaps not now but in the near future. 

[CGW]

6 minutes ago, NCC1701A said:

of course they are being stored.

& off course they are being "shared" ???? 

Probably conveniently forgot to tell us that bit.............

[manarak]

40 minutes ago, Matzzon said:

They are of course stored. That will make them find you if you break the law and leave them at the same place. Exactly like fingerprint databases all over the world. Nothing strange at all, and nothing that law abiding persons need to worry about.

 

that's where I hold a different opinion.

 

if fingerprints are stored, they can be acquired by criminals.

look at all the data hacking cases multiplying all over the world. I'm not talking about dating site data, but government data.

Bulgaria's finance ministry, Russia's FSB, etc. Thai Immigration ???

who here believes in Thai Immigration's IT security? half of their links are 404, there are more than a couple of abandoned Thai immigration websites with who knows what data behind them.

 

if the prints were obtained by criminals it wouldn't be very difficult to produce rubber models using a 3D printer and then placing the prints on a crime scene.

 

the "criminals" could include law enforcement officers eager to "wrap up" a case, possibly on orders from above.

this isn't unheard of when it comes to Thai police.

 

in general, I would say this considerably weakens figerprints' strength of proof, if not nullifies it in the case of high profile cases in Thailand.

 

Innocent people's fingerprints should not be stored as a full print. They should store a sufficent number of characteristics to make it recognizable, but not reproductible.

 

Storage of full fingerprint images is a major security risk.

[jackdd]

10 minutes ago, manarak said:

if fingerprints are stored, they can be acquired by criminals.

Fingerprints are usually stored about like this, i don't think they store the complete image of the fingerprint (probably the complete image doesn't even come out of the fingerprint reader, if somebody wants to confirm this you have to check the model of the fingerprint reader they use and check the manual)

 

From these data points you can't recreate the original fingerprint (in theory you could, but there are nearly endless possibilites, so quite unlikely to achieve)

[manarak]

5 minutes ago, jackdd said:

Fingerprints are usually stored about like this, i don't think they scan the complete image of the fingerprint (probably the complete image doesn't even come out of the fingerprint reader, if somebody wants to confirm this you have to check the model of the fingerprint reader they use and check the manual)

 

From these data points you can't recreate the original fingerprint (in theory you could, but there are nearly endless possibilites, so quite unlikely to achieve)

I researched fingerprinting storage techniques and standards, and most use greyscale JPEG.

my conclusion is that actual images are stored.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wavelet_scalar_quantization

 

[NCC1701A]

8 minutes ago, jackdd said:

Fingerprints are usually stored about like this, i don't think they store the complete image of the fingerprint (probably the complete image doesn't even come out of the fingerprint reader, if somebody wants to confirm this you have to check the model of the fingerprint reader they use and check the manual)

 

From these data points you can't recreate the original fingerprint (in theory you could, but there are nearly endless possibilites, so quite unlikely to achieve)

this is how searches are conducted. looking for matches like this and then progressively more points.

[wgdanson]

22 minutes ago, CGW said:

& off course they are being "shared" ???? 

Probably conveniently forgot to tell us that bit.............

With whom do you think?

[Number 6]

I'm certain they are sent round the world. Five eyes, EU, Russia, China. My hunch is a huge pool of fingerprints which countries contribute and cross-check.

[Don Chance]

They only did a eye scam for me.

[Snow Leopard]

45 minutes ago, overherebc said:

Mine have been on record in UK since 1968-ish. Black ink and card type. I am assuming they have been scanned now and are on a database.

Don't see a problem.

Bad Boy

[simon43]

They only did a eye scam for me.

 

What?!!  Yet another scam ????

[overherebc]

3 minutes ago, simon43 said:

 

 

 

What?!!  Yet another scam ????

Yep.

When he asked will you scam me with this eye thing?

He answered   Wood eye??

[CGW]

18 minutes ago, wgdanson said:

With whom do you think?

Do you think Thailand would do this themselves? the rest of the "world" has been very accepting of "political events" in Thailand, I can can only put it down to compliance? 

[anon7854]

To be honest I find finger printing abusive. I mainly go to Thailand 2 times / year on vacation but now will have to reconsider. I avoid countries that take an interest in my fingerprints like plague ( China , US).  I come to invest and spend money in your country and you are already seeing me as a criminal?  The "prevent trouble makers" is hilarious. It will not prevent anything , it's just dumb. Giving my fingerprints away for some foreign entity where I have absolutely no guarantee on the use would give them too much power. I'm wondering what the GDPR laws are saying on this matter?

 

So will anyone  who enters Thailand need to have their fingerprints scanned ? Are then any exceptions to this (like diplomatic staff, kids etc) or there are no exceptions? Do we fingerprint Thai citizen visiting Europe?

[Matzzon]

57 minutes ago, manarak said:

 

that's where I hold a different opinion.

 

if fingerprints are stored, they can be acquired by criminals.

look at all the data hacking cases multiplying all over the world. I'm not talking about dating site data, but government data.

Bulgaria's finance ministry, Russia's FSB, etc. Thai Immigration ???

who here believes in Thai Immigration's IT security? half of their links are 404, there are more than a couple of abandoned Thai immigration websites with who knows what data behind them.

 

if the prints were obtained by criminals it wouldn't be very difficult to produce rubber models using a 3D printer and then placing the prints on a crime scene.

 

the "criminals" could include law enforcement officers eager to "wrap up" a case, possibly on orders from above.

this isn't unheard of when it comes to Thai police.

 

in general, I would say this considerably weakens figerprints' strength of proof, if not nullifies it in the case of high profile cases in Thailand.

 

Innocent people's fingerprints should not be stored as a full print. They should store a sufficent number of characteristics to make it recognizable, but not reproductible.

 

Storage of full fingerprint images is a major security risk.

Yes you are perfectly right! I am scared of everything around me too.

[manarak]

1 minute ago, Matzzon said:

Yes you are perfectly right! I am scared of everything around me too.

do you work in IT as I do ?

 

[ukrules]

1 hour ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Does it really matter?

What would you do if you know they store them in a simple database and lots of people could access them?

a) Would you not come to Thailand anymore to avoid this?

b) Would you complain somewhere and/or insist they don't do that?

Accept it. TiT!

 

Yes, it matters. If they're found to be breaching the GDPR tthey will be sanctioned by the EU in some way.

[manarak]

7 minutes ago, ukrules said:

Yes, it matters. If they're found to be breaching the GDPR tthey will be sanctioned by the EU in some way.

nope.

national security is explicitly excluded from GDPR's jurisdiction.

 

Thailand can do anything it wants with these fingerprints.

[simple1]

14 minutes ago, manarak said:

do you work in IT as I do ?

 

SITA is the main player in the space you're questioning - check out their solutions

[manarak]

5 minutes ago, simple1 said:

SITA is the main player in the space you're questioning - check out their solutions

I couldn't find anything on who provides the IT solution to Thai immigration.

 

and even then, a reputable provider would only protect from outside criminals. it doesn't protect the data from misuse by its accredited users.

[ukrules]

13 minutes ago, manarak said:

nope.

national security is explicitly excluded from GDPR's jurisdiction.

 

Thailand can do anything it wants with these fingerprints.

Time will tell us what happens when it's all hacked and available for anyone to download.

 

Thailand just draw a massive bullseye on it's back by creating this database which is obviously all online and connected throughout the country.

 

Do they have finger print scanners at immigration offices inside the country or only on the borders I wonder?

[Salerno]

8 minutes ago, manarak said:

I couldn't find anything on who provides the IT solution to Thai immigration.

 

A German company provided the equipment https://www.dermalog.com/. Backend, who knows.

[anon7854]

16 minutes ago, ukrules said:

national security is explicitly excluded from GDPR's jurisdiction

Funny isn't it? Governments and entities are all about freedom of expression and privacy and all that bullshit until it involves them ....and then the rules no longer apply ????

 

<removed>

[Stocky]

55 minutes ago, anon7854 said:

Are then any exceptions to this

Double amputees and those born with symbrachydactyly