Expat group launches online petition calling for TM.30 to be scrapped

[BestB]

14 minutes ago, lkv said:

So to clarify on my previous post.

 

Any inconvenience that may be experienced by foreigners in regards to TM30, is outweighed by the Bureau's success in combatting transnational crime.

 

To give you a glimpse of the dialogue.

 

That was Big Joke's line, expect Big Oud's line to be the same.

No doubt they will justify it and come up with millions of reasons and excuses but they may also start to reconsider or at least put a stop on some other ideas which they have not come up with yet.

 

foreigners have never spoken out before so we really have no idea what reaction to expect .

 

one very important thing to note is thai reaction when anything makes them look bad on international arena. They always leap into action to “fix “ it

 

So it may work out well one way or another but once again without trying will never know 

[KhaoYai]

Listen guys, you can argue about this until the cows come home. I believe that someone high up in Immigration seized upon this aged legislation as a way to make a name for himself - routing out all those bad farangs.

 

However, when Immgration realise what a headache this is for them - the fameseeker will be looking for a way out. If you think TM30 is bad for us, can you imagine the nightmare from the Thai side. It won't be too long before somone realises that this causes a lot of work but actually achieves nothing.

 

This petition may just give him that way out.

 

There are other, far more serious immigration issues looming and any form of liason group that is in dialogue with the Thai authorities could be very useful for both sides.

Edited July 29, 2019 by KhaoYai

[lkv]

17 minutes ago, BestB said:

they may also start to reconsider or at least put a stop on some other ideas which they have not come up with yet.

Nah. No chance.

 

They will push it as much as they feel like pushing it, regardless of what you and I feel.

 

Should AirBnb become legal, it will just adapt to local realities, like in India for example, where it has a help page instructing hosts how to report foreigners.

 

Or Spain, where by law all guests have to be registered with the guardia civil within 24 hours.

 

Just to give you an example, AirBnb has already complied with China's demands of 24 hour foreigner registration.

 

https://www.scmp.com/tech/article/2139526/airbnb-complies-china-law-hand-over-guest-details-listings-double

 

As for people staying long term, in China people with visas need to re-register after travelling abroad, for holders of residence permits, it depends from one province to another, generally no.

 

https://lawandborder.com/temporary-residence-registration-for-foreign-nationals/

 

We might just as well do some reading of these, they might accurately predict the future. That's what they are replicating. Read the last one, it will sound familiar.

 

Edited July 29, 2019 by lkv

[balo]

[BestB]

7 minutes ago, lkv said:

Nah. No chance.

 

They will push it as much as they feel like pushing it, regardless of what you and I feel.

 

Should AirBnb become legal, it will just adapt to local realities, like in India for example, where it has a help page instructing hosts how to report foreigners.

 

Or Spain, where by law all guests have to be registered with the guardia civil within 24 hours.

 

Just to give you an example, AirBnb has already complied with China's demands of 24 hour foreigner registration.

 

https://www.scmp.com/tech/article/2139526/airbnb-complies-china-law-hand-over-guest-details-listings-double

 

As for people staying long term, in China people with visas need to re-register after travelling abroad, for holders of residence permits, it depends from one province to another, generally no.

 

https://lawandborder.com/temporary-residence-registration-for-foreign-nationals/

 

We might just as well do some reading of these, they might accurately predict the future. That's what they are replicating. Read the last one, it will sound familiar.

 

You comparing apples to oranges . China does not need and never needed or relied on tourists or expats.

 

let me give you another one example , Kaosan road.

 

They pushed and pushed and ignored all petitions until they killed it. Then they spent 25 000 000 DOLLARS note not baht but dollars on brainstorming how to revive it and what they they come up with ? Reverse it back to how it was but to save face put some time restrictions , like morning trading which no one was trading in the morning anyways .

 

So we really do not know and as much as we like to think or believe we do know , we do not .

 

For all you know , they do not even realise it’s giving us problems and kind of problems. 

[lkv]

4 minutes ago, BestB said:

You comparing apples to oranges . China does not need and never needed or relied on tourists or expats.

 

So again.

 

Tourists are automatically reported by hotels. Tourists will not even know they are being reported, it's all done by the hotels in the background.

 

People working in China comply with these regulations.

 

China does not have a "retirement" visa.

Edited July 29, 2019 by lkv

[BestB]

5 minutes ago, lkv said:

So again.

 

Tourists are automatically reported by hotels. Tourists will not even know they are being reported, it's all done by the hotels in the background.

 

People working in China comply with these regulations.

 

China does not have a "retirement" visa.

You only assuming tourists are reported by the hotels but I can tell you being a hotel owner of 15 years in Thailand that it is not the case .

 

hotels do not report ALL but only random amount as reporting every single guest would take all day. Can not say how many , but a large number of hotels are not even registered with immigration to make reports 

 

I also do not believe this petition is limited to only tm30 reports but general treatment and attitude towards long term stayers and business people. 

 

90 days report is sufficient enough to have us registered , to which mind you I also find ridiculous when someone like myself a business owner for so many years and provide 200 pages each year for visa extension yet I still need to report every 90 days and register each time I move . 

[lkv]

16 minutes ago, BestB said:

You only assuming tourists are reported by the hotels but I can tell you being a hotel owner of 15 years in Thailand that it is not the case .

 

hotels do not report ALL but only random amount as reporting every single guest would take all day. Can not say how many , but a large number of hotels are not even registered with immigration to make reports 

 

 

I understand what you're saying, but we are discussing scenarios of moving forward.

 

When I checked into a hotel in Sukhumvit in May (after giving up my apartment in March), they wanted my arrival card. They looked quite paranoid. I think they may have had an unpleasant visit from the Police. That's how they were behaving. Very weird.

 

So I did ask them, why do you need the arrival card for?

 

Silence.

 

They just ignored my question and kept typing their keyboard.

 

Now, I was playing dumb, I knew what they were doing. And they had no b#lls to admit they were reporting a tourist to Immigration. Because they would lose face.

 

It was obvious to me because I know what's going on. For people that have no clue what's going on, they will not even realise it and proceed to drink their beers at the closest restaurant.

 

Edited July 29, 2019 by lkv

[lkv]

@BestB

 

So I agree with what you are saying, that many hotels ignore the law, many offices ignore the law, but I don't think that, if there was a dialogue with Immigration, it would sound like:

 

"Oh, well, TM30 is useless. Many hotels are not doing it anyway".

 

If I was them, I would ask "who doesn't", and then send the Police over.

 

So I'm not too sure if that's a solid argument against it. If you know what I mean ????

[finnomick1]

Why report to immigration to advise my address when it has already been declared on my visa application form ? Another excuse to create employment I reckon.

[lkv]

Ok so...Now.

 

"We, as a group, believe that strict enforcement of the form TM30 will only serve to create more problems and ultimately show a massive downturn in tourism, foreign investment and the existence Thai families living with foreigners. We request this in the interests of Thailand."

 

Can we perhaps delete "massive downturn in tourism" and "foreign investment" from the petition, they do sound a bit idiotic.

 

Tourism i have explained already how it works, nothing to do with TM30 whatsoever. It has to do with whatever else such as high baht, boats sinking, taxi scams, ripoffs, overpriced restaurants, you name it. But not with TM30.

 

Foreign investment, again, nothing to do with TM30 whatsoever. That's to do with things like tax advantages, minimum salary for staff, other more profitable places in the region for companies such as Myanmar, Vietnam, etc.

 

And BOI investors are exempt anyway if I am not mistaken.

 

To keep it real and less cheesy.

Edited July 29, 2019 by lkv

[lamyai3]

6 hours ago, jbob said:

expats are also known as aliens and if aliens came and started making demands their welcome would be short lived

Resistance is futile 

[RBOP]

 

 

 

 

20 hours ago, law ling said:

Seems to me that the authorities may find a blanket request that "foreigners need not report their changes of address",  as more suspicious then it sounds (rather than just being supremely impractical under the current system; which is what I assume motivates the petition). Better to press for an easier reporting system. (Tip: Change won't happen - it's revenue driven - the fines are too attractive - a "river of gold" - why would they turn that off?)

Very true its all  

[RBOP]

I remember after the 2006 coup the junta imposed a restriction that no tourist could have more than a 90 day stay in any 6 month period. I was working in Malaysia and coming "home" on weekends to stay with my family in my condo. I had so many in/outs that at the airport immigration has to use a calculator to see if had used up my quota. I was too young for retirement visa and wife not Thai. Yes,  I did move the family out temporarily. The stupid ruling was dropped shortly afterwards.  So things can and do change. Sign the petition or don't say anything other than wish us luck.  But hey, this is a free forum so you free to say what you want within the rules.    

Edited July 30, 2019 by RBOP
spelling

[wobalt]

If they so desire, they can pass a decree and attach your condo, your bank accounts, your automobile, your furniture, and put you on the next plane home. And you would have no effective recourse whatsoever.

No, they cannot. But they know expats have no balls


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[ThaiLawOnline]

People here are just moaning and do nothing to change things. We all know that it is archaic, kind of big brother and needs to change.

 

i see people complaining about SSL (corrected) the English, the fact that it is dangerous to sign a petition, etc.

 

Some don’t believe in the goal of 10,000 signatures but do nothing to help, share, sign.

 

We are much more than 10,000 expats, foreigners or tourists here. No, it does not affect tourists. No, it does not affect everything. But it does affect some people. It is not only TM30 which is linked to landlords, but TM28 which is link to travelers in another province for 24 hours.

 

it is time to act. If you believe it is not the right way, to ahead, sue them, make another attempt, I might help you. I live here for 15 years, deal with Thai authorities each week, I sued them twice and won, I think that is the best and softest approach, and we already know people at immigration and some generals.

 

Do not assume nothing will happen. Nobody knows.

 

 

[lkv]

You must be joking.

 

Good luck anyways.

Edited July 30, 2019 by lkv

[Guest]

just signed the petition and website ok, whether this petition has much success or not i think it is a good start and hopefully is just a starting point for a serious body to have long term dialogue with the right people about issues to assist the imm. dept. as well as ferangs.

i understand that the TM30 does not have much bearing on most of us but we have to start somewhere.

[jaffas21]

The amount of people signing this isn't a lot. I guess people including me don't want to appear on the authorities radar for signing something like this.  Good idea though it is.

[lkv]

47 minutes ago, Isaanlawyers said:

We are much more than 10,000 expats, foreigners or tourists here. No, it does not affect tourists. No, it does not affect everything. But it does affect some people.

Dude, my apologies, but you don't sound like a lawyer. Not saying you are not one, but you should perhaps be a campaigner, not a lawyer.

 

So there's nothing wrong with bad English in a petition that you want to submit to the Prime Minister of a country? No?

 

Then, you expect these people to be emotionally moved by fake lines like: "TM30 is going to massively affect tourism", when it doesn't?

 

Then, you want people to sign an inaccurate petition with misleading statements in it?

 

Dude, are you for real?

Edited July 30, 2019 by lkv

[jackdd]

52 minutes ago, Isaanlawyers said:

but TM28 which is link to travelers in another province for 24 hours.

I told you already that this is wrong.

Maybe you should start reading the law, you claim to be a lawyer

[RBOP]

16 minutes ago, jaffas21 said:

The amount of people signing this isn't a lot. I guess people including me don't want to appear on the authorities radar for signing something like this.  Good idea though it is.

They will not include names with the petition. See my earlier post. Don't live in fear. 

[ThomasThBKK]

10 minutes ago, jackdd said:

I told you already that this is wrong.

Maybe you should start reading the law, you claim to be a lawyer

But it's not - if u stay somewhere longer than 24hours outside of ur current address u have to do it, even if they don't enforce it.

 

16 minutes ago, lkv said:

Dude, my apologies, but you don't sound like a lawyer. Not saying you are not one, but you should perhaps be a campaigner, not a lawyer.

 

So there's nothing wrong with bad English in a petition that you want to submit to the Prime Minister of a country? No?

 

Then, you expect these people to be emotionally moved by fake lines like: "TM30 is going to massively affect tourism", when it doesn't?

 

Then, you want people to sign an inaccurate petition with misleading statements in it?

 

Dude, are you for real?

There's nothing misleading.

This stuff does have a noticeable bad influence on tourism and investment. I know dozens of investors here pissed off by their recent bs me included.

[RBOP]

1 minute ago, ThomasThBKK said:

But it's not - if u stay somewhere longer than 24hours outside of ur current address u have to do it, even if they don't enforce it.

 

There's nothing misleading.

This stuff does have a noticeable bad influence on tourism and investment. I know dozens of investors here pissed off by their recent bs me included.

Me too

[lkv]

4 minutes ago, ThomasThBKK said:

There's nothing misleading.

This stuff does have a noticeable bad influence on tourism and investment. I know dozens of investors here pissed off by their recent bs me included.

How exactly does TM30 deter foreign investment or tourism.

 

Could you please enlighten me?

 

Edited July 30, 2019 by lkv

[jackdd]

7 minutes ago, ThomasThBKK said:

But it's not - if u stay somewhere longer than 24hours outside of ur current address u have to do it, even if they don't enforce it.

No, you don't.

Section 37 (4) says foreigners have to report. But below it says subsection 3 and 4 do not apply to foreigners who entered under section 34. If you entered Thailand legally, you entered under 34.

So only foreigners who entered Thailand illegally have to report if they stay somewhere else for 24 hours.

Edited July 30, 2019 by jackdd

[RBOP]

8 minutes ago, lkv said:

How exactly does TM30 deter foreign investment or tourism.

 

Could you please enlighten me?

 

I've already once before packed up the family and left for 8 months when in 2006 they had crazy restrictions. So Thailand missed 8 months of my wife spending in Thailand. That's how.   

Edited July 30, 2019 by RBOP
Wife spends it all

[lkv]

15 minutes ago, RBOP said:

I've already once before packed up the family and left for 8 months when in 2006 they had crazy restrictions. So Thailand missed 8 months of my family spending in Thailand. That's how.   

What do you mean you left?

 

You did not meet Immigration requirements for a proper visa at the time.

/Edit

Oh sorry, of your wife's spending? So she spent your money on your behalf in another country? So that's how it deters foreign investment. Ok.

Edited July 30, 2019 by lkv
Edit after previous poster editing

[CaptainJack]

This morning's Bangkok newspaper. Perhaps there will be a reaction? Wait and see....

[RBOP]

5 minutes ago, lkv said:

What do you mean you left?

 

You did not meet Immigration requirements for a proper visa at the time.

In 2006 after the coup the junta imposed a limit of 90 days total in any 6 months period. I was working in Malaysia and coming gome on weekends and holidays.  Airport IO used a calculator to see if I used up my quota every entry. That's when I moved the family to Malaysia temporarily.  I was too young for a retirement visa and family is not Thai.