Expat group launches online petition calling for TM.30 to be scrapped

[albertik]

Thanks JackDD  but from reading section 34, there is no mention of those who entered on a retirement visa, so in my case and probably others there is no relief there.

[schlemmi]

1 hour ago, DrTuner said:

Brilliant, how did you manage to dig this one up? 

 

TVF & isaanlawyers could do a service and dig all of these up to be translated and held in one place. Every single piece of legistlation and orders since Siam changed to Thailand. Then every one would be able to see how it got off the rails.

At the the thai government gazette wher all the law and orders and so on have to be published before they can used.

[jackdd]

7 minutes ago, albertik said:

Thanks JackDD  but from reading section 34, there is no mention of those who entered on a retirement visa, so in my case and probably others there is no relief there.

If you read the original Thai law the wording makes it clear that foreigners who are allowed to stay temporary can only be admitted for one of the reasons under 34. So retirees or people married to Thais have to be somewhere under section 34 as well, maybe under "15. Other activities as prescribed in the Ministerial Regulations."

Here the Thai law:

http://web.krisdika.go.th/data/law/law2/%A402/%A402-20-9999-update.htm

Edited July 30, 2019 by jackdd

[DrTuner]

2 minutes ago, schlemmi said:

At the the thai government gazette wher all the law and orders and so on have to be published before they can used.

Well done. I tried that some time ago but couldn't locate it. The search functionality defeated my tries. 

[schlemmi]

No. In the uploaded document its only a subset of the cases stated in article 34. Only this subset has exemption for article 37 (3)(4).

 

[schlemmi]

8 minutes ago, DrTuner said:

Well done. I tried that some time ago but couldn't locate it. The search functionality defeated my tries. 

What you could not locate? The thai government gazette at the web or the doument(s) on their webpage?

[albertik]

13 minutes ago, jackdd said:

If you read the original Thai law the wording makes it clear that foreigners who are allowed to stay temporary can only be admitted for one of the reasons under 34. So retirees or people married to Thais have to be somewhere under section 34 as well, maybe under "15. Other activities as prescribed in the Ministerial Regulations."

Here the Thai law:

http://web.krisdika.go.th/data/law/law2/%A402/%A402-20-9999-update.htm

Item 15 falls under section 34 which applies to those entering the kingdom on a temporary stay. All very nebulous to say the least.

[jackdd]

19 minutes ago, schlemmi said:

No. In the uploaded document its only a subset of the cases stated in article 34. Only this subset has exemption for article 37 (3)(4).

 

Yes, you are right, i didn't pay close enough attention to these points.

This order posted by schlemmi does not exempt people who entered for one of these activities:

11. Mass media.
13. Scientific research or training or teach in a Research Institute in the Kingdom.
15. Other activities as prescribed in the Ministerial Regulations.

 

So if retirees should be under 15. then maybe still fall under this, but they can very well be exempt somewhere else

For example tourists and people entering for business purposes are exempt.

 

11 minutes ago, schlemmi said:

What you could not locate? The thai government gazette at the web or the doument(s) on their webpage?

Probably he was talking about the document, i also always have problems finding anything there.

Are you able to locate the ministerial order for 34 (15) which might mention retirees?

Edited July 30, 2019 by jackdd

[OtinPattaya]

There are law firms and attorneys in Thailand. There are millions of dollars with expats who are unhappy with the tm30. Why is it that the tm30 is so hard to penetrate? We expats say nothing, do nothing. We need to organize at least at a basic level. If we don't why should the Thai government take us seriously?

 

Out of all the egregious immigration laws I think we can all agree on he tm30.

Edited July 30, 2019 by OtinPattaya

[ThaiLawOnline]

6 hours ago, CaptainJack said:

This morning's Bangkok newspaper. Perhaps there will be a reaction? Wait and see....

 

Acting Immigration Bureau Chief, Pol Lt Gen Sompong Chingduang admitted the TM30 was problematic. This is already a victory. To all non believers, to everyone that complained, to all keyboard warriors hidden behind some nicknames, I wish that you will watch that video I like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jG7dSXcfVqE

 

And the immigration application often do not work. TM28 is more a problem but not applied to what I know. Slowly, but surely. SIGN THIS PETITION. YOUR NAME WON"T BE REVEAL. CHECK IN YOUR SPAM IF YOU HAVE A LINK because you must confirm and sometimes it goes into spam. Share it on groups of expats. Invite friends, we need signatures. Thanks.

 

 

[schlemmi]

18 minutes ago, OtinPattaya said:

There are law firms and attorneys in Thailand. There are millions of dollars with expats who are unhappy with the tm30. Why is it that the tm30 is so hard to penetrate? We expats say nothing, do nothing. We need to organize at least at a basic level. If we don't why should the Thai government take us seriously?

If the expats know about the law then no law companies needed anymore. Missing knowledge or weak knowledge is a good market.

[ThaiLawOnline]

Replying to the post about saying that "TVF & isaanlawyers could do a service and dig all of these up to be translated and held in one place. Every single piece of legistlation and orders since Siam changed to Thailand. Then every one would be able to see how it got off the rails."

 

Isaan Lawyers is a small law firm. We are about 6. We do what we can.

 

We already put a LOT of articles in 3 languages on Thai Law Online COM. I think I can't put the link. There is a database of law there.

 

This is volunteer work. It helps to promote our law firm but like anyone, I must work, pay for education of children, office, employees, etc. We can't do much more....

Edited July 30, 2019 by Isaanlawyers
add quote

[OtinPattaya]

31 minutes ago, Isaanlawyers said:

 

Acting Immigration Bureau Chief, Pol Lt Gen Sompong Chingduang admitted the TM30 was problematic. This is already a victory. To all non believers, to everyone that complained, to all keyboard warriors hidden behind some nicknames, I wish that you will watch that video I like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jG7dSXcfVqE

 

And the immigration application often do not work. TM28 is more a problem but not applied to what I know. Slowly, but surely. SIGN THIS PETITION. YOUR NAME WON"T BE REVEAL. CHECK IN YOUR SPAM IF YOU HAVE A LINK because you must confirm and sometimes it goes into spam. Share it on groups of expats. Invite friends, we need signatures. Thanks.

 

 

The tm30 is so irrational, so absurd that the only thing preventing Thailand from abandoning it is our own western cowardice. Everybody is terrified of standing up to Thai immigration, for good reason, for any reason. You need, my friends, to have a plan B and a plan C.

Edited July 30, 2019 by OtinPattaya

[ThaiLawOnline]

57 minutes ago, schlemmi said:

25 minutes ago, OtinPattaya said:

There are law firms and attorneys in Thailand. There are millions of dollars with expats who are unhappy with the tm30. Why is it that the tm30 is so hard to penetrate? We expats say nothing, do nothing. We need to organize at least at a basic level. If we don't why should the Thai government take us seriously?

 

 

We paid 30,000 baht for website, advertising, translation, server, etc. I worked 60 hours on that. We received donations for that project of about 60,000 baht. Even some <deleted> complained that we were making money with this. Everything will be inside accounting and we will pay taxes. With this project, talking to immigration, exposing myself, sending letters to medias, replying on websites, sorry, I am exhausted, and pissed off by the reactions of some expats. And they want everything in one shot: They complained on English, SSL security, on that it does not include insurance for retirement, that it does not include X, Y , Z.

 

Just do better, any of the complainers, if you can. I am out of Thaivisa now. I think we did a great job and were about 50 working on that project. It is not MY personal project. We thought about it. We did what we think is the best. Not going to court to challenge it.... that would be stupid.

[DrTuner]

12 minutes ago, Isaanlawyers said:

Replying to the post about saying that "TVF & isaanlawyers could do a service and dig all of these up to be translated and held in one place. Every single piece of legistlation and orders since Siam changed to Thailand. Then every one would be able to see how it got off the rails."

 

Isaan Lawyers is a small law firm. We are about 6. We do what we can.

 

We already put a LOT of articles in 3 languages on Thai Law Online COM. I think I can't put the link. There is a database of law there.

 

This is volunteer work. It helps to promote our law firm but like anyone, I must work, pay for education of children, office, employees, etc. We can't do much more....

Much appreciated. Of course it should be the government's job to translate and put all relevant documents on the immigration website. Not holding my breath about that happening.

[FarFlungFalang]

5 minutes ago, Isaanlawyers said:

With this project, talking to immigration, exposing myself,

You really need to careful doing this kind of thing because people might misunderstand exactly what you are trying to say!I'm certainly not going to expose myself whist talking to immigration,but I think that's a pretty brave thing to do even if people say you can't do that.

Edited July 30, 2019 by FarFlungFalang

[DrTuner]

1 hour ago, schlemmi said:

What you could not locate? The thai government gazette at the web or the doument(s) on their webpage?

The document in the gazette webpage. It was years ago though, reminded me of 80's text based games where you needed to put in exactly the right phrase to get any results. I must've missed some magic words in the search.

[RBOP]

Tomorrow I and family go to CW to convert my Non-Imm IB and family Non-O to Retirement. I've hired an agent. Agent talking directly with IO at CW. IO confirms I will be fined for no TM30 even though BOI visa from Charmjuree doesn't require and even seems exempt. I registered for TM30 online a week ago. No user name or password sent to me. CW IO doesnt budge and will not process any visa without a TM30. Told the que for TM30 is over 400 and take all day. Ah ha, but I can pay for fast track.....????

 

Its impossible to report within 24 hours unless you go in person. So if have any extension or visa work to do start your TM30 months ahead or just pay the fine and waste a day in line or if lucky can fast track ????

 

Signed the petition already but not soon enough to benefit me. 

[FarFlungFalang]

10 minutes ago, Isaanlawyers said:

With this project, talking to immigration, exposing myself, sending letters to medias, replying on websites, sorry, I am exhausted, and pissed off by the reactions of some expats. And they want everything in one shot: They complained on English, SSL security, on that it does not include insurance for retirement, that it does not include X, Y , Z.

Dude look at the response you got,I mean the numbers.I think you are looking at I in a negative way,try looking at it in a positive way you got 38 pages of responses you've raised an issue into the limelight I would say that's a job well done sure people put shit on it that's what we do best around here we take the piss don't get hung up about it just keep flinging the shit back that's what lawyers do,best my advice would be go to the fridge and take a drink of what Chopper Reid would call harden the <deleted> up!Again you've done a bloody terrific job keep going and hopefully the light at the end of the tunnel isn't a train coming at you!Keep cool and keep your cool.

[schlemmi]

1 hour ago, jackdd said:

Yes, you are right, i didn't pay close enough attention to these points.

This order posted by schlemmi does not exempt people who entered for one of these activities:

11. Mass media.
13. Scientific research or training or teach in a Research Institute in the Kingdom.
15. Other activities as prescribed in the Ministerial Regulations.

 

So if retirees should be under 15. then maybe still fall under this, but they can very well be exempt somewhere else

For example tourists and people entering for business purposes are exempt.

 

Probably he was talking about the document, i also always have problems finding anything there.

Are you able to locate the ministerial order for 34 (15) which might mention retirees?

Those two files are the related Ministerial law.

MG-2523-6-gemaess-GG-2522.pdf MG-2540-22-gemaess-GG-2522.pdf

[RBOP]

24 minutes ago, Isaanlawyers said:

 

We paid 30,000 baht for website, advertising, translation, server, etc. I worked 60 hours on that. We received donations for that project of about 60,000 baht. Even some <deleted> complained that we were making money with this. Everything will be inside accounting and we will pay taxes. With this project, talking to immigration, exposing myself, sending letters to medias, replying on websites, sorry, I am exhausted, and pissed off by the reactions of some expats. And they want everything in one shot: They complained on English, SSL security, on that it does not include insurance for retirement, that it does not include X, Y , Z.

 

Just do better, any of the complainers, if you can. I am out of Thaivisa now. I think we did a great job and were about 50 working on that project. It is not MY personal project. We thought about it. We did what we think is the best. Not going to court to challenge it.... that would be stupid.

Very much appreciated. Your group is up there with the heroes. Don't let a few trilobites get to you. 

[dcnx]

32 minutes ago, Isaanlawyers said:

 

We paid 30,000 baht for website, advertising, translation, server, etc. I worked 60 hours on that. We received donations for that project of about 60,000 baht. Even some <deleted> complained that we were making money with this. Everything will be inside accounting and we will pay taxes. With this project, talking to immigration, exposing myself, sending letters to medias, replying on websites, sorry, I am exhausted, and pissed off by the reactions of some expats. And they want everything in one shot: They complained on English, SSL security, on that it does not include insurance for retirement, that it does not include X, Y , Z.

 

Just do better, any of the complainers, if you can. I am out of Thaivisa now. I think we did a great job and were about 50 working on that project. It is not MY personal project. We thought about it. We did what we think is the best. Not going to court to challenge it.... that would be stupid.

I commend your efforts and acknowledge your ginormous testicles.  I truly hope this doesn’t backfire on you. God speed.

[schlemmi]

32 minutes ago, RBOP said:

Its impossible to report within 24 hours unless you go in person.

You can do it by registered mail, and the will return the receipt slip by postal mail. You have to provide a reply envelope with sufficient postage stamp on it.

[KhaoYai]

16 hours ago, lkv said:

Tourists are automatically reported by hotels. Tourists will not even know they are being reported, it's all done by the hotels in the background

No they don't, they should but they don't - that is probably one of the things that sparked this issue.  I booked a room through Agoda up in Si Thep in June and I wasn't even asked for my passport. Simply went to reception and was given the keys.

 

Last year I stayed at several hotels including the Miracle Grand Convention Hotel at Don Muang and used my Thai driving licence to check in so no way did they register me - granted that might be changing now.

 

Think about the number of hotels/guest houses in Thailand. If they all comply I guarantee there will be problems. The online system will crash, more staff will be needed because of course, we are talking about Thailand which means hard copies + copies of those copies. Someone will have to file those copies - its a massive task and when they realise what they've let out of the cage there's a good chance this will be scrapped. 

 

There will of course be a MK2 version because they need to know where all us foreign criminals are - not that anyone who is actually up to criminal activity is likely to report their whereabouts.

[schlemmi]

37 minutes ago, schlemmi said:

Those two files are the related Ministerial law.

MG-2523-6-gemaess-GG-2522.pdf 159.48 kB · 3 downloads MG-2540-22-gemaess-GG-2522.pdf 61.25 kB · 2 downloads

I want to repeat what i wrote in my 1st post. The report according to Article 37(2)(4) has to made to the local police (ตำรวจท้องที่) and not to the immigration. Take a precise look to the law.

[schlemmi]

Just now, schlemmi said:

I want to repeat what i wrote in my 1st post. The report according to Article 37(2)(4) has to made to the local police (ตำรวจท้องที่) and not to the immigration. Take a precise look to the law.

Sorry, typo. Article 37(3)(4) is to report to the local police. Only 37(2) report to the immigration.

[KhaoYai]

1 hour ago, FarFlungFalang said:

You really need to careful doing this kind of thing because people might misunderstand exactly what you are trying to say!I'm certainly not going to expose myself whist talking to immigration,but I think that's a pretty brave thing to do even if people say you can't do that.

I think you and others over-estimate the potential dangers.  Yes, if you go steaming in to the Immigration Department making demands, you are going to find yourself in hot water or worse.  But a calm dialogue, highlighting issues for both sides may be of great use and appreciated by both the Thai authorities and expat community.

 

How you handle things affects the results in any situation but in Thailand, even moreso. Knowing some of the authors behind this effort, I am confident that they know how to handle themselves in dialogue with the Thai authorities.

[lkv]

15 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

Think about the number of hotels/guest houses in Thailand. If they all comply I guarantee there will be problems. The online system will crash, more staff will be needed because of course, we are talking about Thailand which means hard copies + copies of those copies. Someone will have to file those copies - its a massive task and when they realise what they've let out of the cage there's a good chance this will be scrapped. 

Is that your proposed line of dialogue?

 

Hotels are breaking the law now, if they were to all comply with the law your servers would crash. Therefore we suggest you abolish TM30.

 

Does that make sense to you?

[Stocky]

The new TM30 reporting device...

 

 

...hopefully not.

 

.

 

Edited July 30, 2019 by Stocky

[FarFlungFalang]

10 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

I think you and others over-estimate the potential dangers.  Yes, if you go steaming in to the Immigration Department making demands, you are going to find yourself in hot water or worse.  But a calm dialogue, highlighting issues for both sides may be of great use and appreciated by both the Thai authorities and expat community.

 

How you handle things affects the results in any situation but in Thailand, even moreso. Knowing some of the authors behind this effort, I am confident that they know how to handle themselves in dialogue with the Thai authorities.

I think you may have over estimated the seriousness of my post which was a poke at him exposing himself while talking to immigration (like with no pants on) if you re-read my post you may pick up the humour the second time around maybe not as it is heavily veiled,subliminal even.