Man pushes boy in front of train in Germany, killing him

[dick dasterdly]

Back on topic, this man clearly needs to be sent back home - and his actions are likely to have reduced the support for genuine refugees .

 

18 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Shouldn't he serve a prison term, first?

 

17 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Well, that and the investigation/trial bit. 

Obviously there needs to be a trial first, but assuming he is found guilty (and it's hard to imagine that he will be found not guilty), then I see no reason for German taxpayers to pay for him to be sent to prison.

 

Surely better to send him back to his home country to be imprisoned?

[Morch]

40 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Back on topic, this man clearly needs to be sent back home - and his actions are likely to have reduced the support for genuine refugees .

 

 

Obviously there needs to be a trial first, but assuming he is found guilty (and it's hard to imagine that he will be found not guilty), then I see no reason for German taxpayers to pay for him to be sent to prison.

 

Surely better to send him back to his home country to be imprisoned?

 

Surely, as in you have a lot of faith in the Eritrean authorities and related justice/penal systems. I'd venture that if this angle was brought up, the guy's lawyer would raise persecution issues in defense. If he's an approved refugee, sending him back won't be much of an option. At best, he could be sent back to Switzerland, and even that's not assured given his history.

[TopDeadSenter]

11 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Surely, as in you have a lot of faith in the Eritrean authorities and related justice/penal systems. I'd venture that if this angle was brought up, the guy's lawyer would raise persecution issues in defense. If he's an approved refugee, sending him back won't be much of an option. At best, he could be sent back to Switzerland, and even that's not assured given his history.

There is a clear lack of empathy on display here. Had it been your own 8 year old child pushed in an unprovoked attack to be sliced and diced to death under a high speed train, would you be worrying about potential persecution of his murderer if he gets sent home?

 I would suggest our concern should be for other children in Europe. Children who have a right to wait in safety at train platforms, rather than fretting over hardships faced by evil murderers, but then I concede, we are all different and have different moral values. 

Edited August 1, 2019 by TopDeadSenter

[dick dasterdly]

2 minutes ago, TopDeadSenter said:

There is a clear lack of empathy on display here. Had it been your own 8 year old child pushed in an unprovoked attack to be sliced and diced to death under a high speed train, would you be worrying about potential persecution of his murderer if he gets sent home?

 I would suggest the other children in Europe have a right to wait in safety at train platforms, rather than fretting over hardships faced by evil murderers, but then I concede, we are all different and have different moral values. 

You are right insofar as I have zero empathy for this guy.

 

If he'd killed himself, rather than deciding to kill others for no reason, I'd have empathy.

[Morch]

8 minutes ago, TopDeadSenter said:

There is a clear lack of empathy on display here. Had it been your own 8 year old child pushed in an unprovoked attack to be sliced and diced to death under a high speed train, would you be worrying about potential persecution of his murderer if he gets sent home?

 I would suggest our concern should be for other children in Europe. Children who have a right to wait in safety at train platforms, rather than fretting over hardships faced by evil murderers, but then I concede, we are all different and have different moral values. 

 

There's a clear comprehension issue. Or failing that, the usual twist job.

 

I'm not worried about the guy's potential persecution. I'm pointing out what his lawyers are apt to claim. And given the law, I'm pretty sure it will hold.

 

I should suggest that you'd stop milking this, and go bark under the right tree. As for the moralizing bit, thanks for the chuckle.

 

Edited August 1, 2019 by Morch

[Chomper Higgot]

2 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

What are you going on about?

 

You're clearly trying to twist my post into a post to which you would prefer to reply.....

 

You may well be right that his lawyer will raise 'persecution issues' as a defense - after him having killed someone, and trying to kill two others.... 

 

Hopefully, this defense argument will fail - and he'll be sent back home.

 

 

The point is, and it is not a minor point, Germany has a set of laws and is signatory to a number of international treaties. 

 

The emotive call to send the accused (after trial and judgment) back to his own country would require the German State to demonstrate doing so was in compliance with its own laws and international treaties to which Germany is bound. 

 

It is why less emotive arguments call for the accused to face investigation, trial and if found guilty, punishment to the full extent of the law.

 

[dick dasterdly]

21 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The point is, and it is not a minor point, Germany has a set of laws and is signatory to a number of international treaties. 

 

The emotive call to send the accused (after trial and judgment) back to his own country would require the German State to demonstrate doing so was in compliance with its own laws and international treaties to which Germany is bound. 

 

It is why less emotive arguments call for the accused to face investigation, trial and if found guilty, punishment to the full extent of the law.

 

Thank you for making this clear.

 

Even immigrants that were approved as genuine refugees cannot be sent back to their home countries - never mind how horrendous the crime.....

[Morch]

3 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

 

"Surely, as in you have a lot of faith in the Eritrean authorities and related justice/penal systems"

 

Clearly you were 'twisting' my post..... 

 

Oh, you need things being spelled out? Alright.

One of the key consideration when extraditing or transferring people to face legal issues abroad is trust in local legal systems being able to deal with things impartially and appropriately. That element, I think, does not exist in this case. Or at least, I don't expect German authorities to go for that. You seem to hold quite different views.

[Morch]

3 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Thank you for making this clear.

 

Even immigrants that were approved as genuine refugees cannot be sent back to their home countries - never mind how horrendous the crime.....

 

Refugee often implies danger of mistreatment in home country. So the "even" bit doesn't make sense here. If he was an "ordinary" immigrant, it would have been less of an issue - even though it is still probable he would have been processed by the German legal system anyway.

[Chomper Higgot]

5 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Thank you for making this clear.

 

Even immigrants that were approved as genuine refugees cannot be sent back to their home countries - never mind how horrendous the crime.....

Again no. 

 

He is charged with committing a crime in Germany and is subject to the German justice  system under German law and in accordance with international treaties that Germany is signatory to. 

 

He'll be investigated, examined, tried and if found guilty serve his sentence in a German prison or a secure German psychiatric hospital.

 

Deportation is a matter for after his sentence is served. 

 

 

[mike787]

He is lucky I was not there...there would be nothing left to arrest...

[Chomper Higgot]

I believe there is a fundamental misunderstanding, perhaps intentional, on what justice is and why it operates the way it does.

The courts aim to deliver justice to all concerned, the victim, the family of the victim, the perpetrator and importantly  to demonstrate justice to wider society. Knowledge and expectation of justice being served is an important factor in social cohesion and maintaining a law abiding society, hence open courts and the rightful calls for transparency in justice. 

 

The justice system also aims, not always successfully, to serve justice blindly based on facts and not on the notoriety of the case. 

 

The justice system (in this case the German justice system) is perfectly capable of dealing with heinous crimes. It's a sad reality that awful and vile crimes are committed daily and come before the courts daily. Vile criminals are found guilty every day and gaoled or permanently locked away in secure psychiatric hospital every day. Be assured the courts have at any time, vile crimes before them, though perhaps not cases that have grabbed the news headlines. 

 

Along comes a vile crime committed by a foreigner, a man who has run from the law to Germany from Switzerland where he is a refugee. 

 

It's a news worthy and news attention grabbing incident, it's also politically charged. 

For this man emotive arguments are made that for a different justice, one in which he should be deported.

 

The implication being that if he's not deported, justice isn't being done, he's not receiving the punishment he deserves and of course the tax payer are suffering the burden of his incarceration. 

 

In truth, the wheels of justice are turning just the same way they always do.

 

Very rightly they they turn blind to the political and emotional storm being fostered around this case. 

 

I doubt there is even the slightest danger that this individual will escape justice, I fully expect he'll spend the rest of his life behind bars. 

 

The real danger here, is the deliberate undermining of public faith in the justice system by those arguing that this man is treated any differently than any other vile criminal before the courts.   

 

 

 

Edited August 1, 2019 by Chomper Higgot

[dick dasterdly]

Before coming up with yet another legal argument as to why this murderer should spend his time in a German prison rather than being returned to his own country, perhaps you would be better served on reflecting 'justice'?

[simple1]

9 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I had given up, but please provide evidence to support these unfounded claims!<SNIP>

From your reply to me...

 

"Thank you for pointing out that 'the law' is frequently not 'justice'.....

 

I understand that you think he should not be returned to his home country despite killing one person"

 

In addition repeated misrepresentation of another member's posts in this topic.

 

 

[dick dasterdly]

8 minutes ago, simple1 said:

From your reply to me...

 

"Thank you for pointing out that 'the law' is frequently not 'justice'.....

 

I understand that you think he should not be returned to his home country despite killing one person"

 

In addition repeated misrepresentation of another member's posts in this topic.

 

 

Evidence please.  I'm sick and tired of the endless slurs with no justification.

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, simple1 said:

Your own words condemn you

Fair enough, but please quote those words....

[dick dasterdly]

As I already knew....

 

No evidence whatsoever, just hoping that slurs would stick....

[Opl]

We - in western Europe must update all our asylum laws to today's situation, including return agreements with countries of the continent that produces never ending flows of asylum seekers genuine and fake - illegal economic migrants,  as this article nails it  

A "Kafkaesque" system

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

31 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

And I'm now seriously pissed off having been accused of 'putting words in peoples mouths and "using the murder of an innocent child as leverage to launch unfounded personal attacks on members of this forum".

 

Again - what is wrong with you people that you would sink to such low, and entirely unfounded accusations??!!!

Methinks you complain too much.

 

2 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

Thank you for making this clear.

 

Even immigrants that were approved as genuine refugees cannot be sent back to their home countries - never mind how horrendous the crime.....

I’ve tried to make a number of things clear for you, this was not one of them.

[dick dasterdly]

16 minutes ago, Opl said:

We - in western Europe must update all our asylum laws to today's situation, including return agreements with countries of the continent that produces never ending flows of asylum seekers genuine and fake - illegal economic migrants,  as this article nails it  

A "Kafkaesque" system

 

 

And that's the most worrying point IMO, even genuine assylum seekers will be regarded less sympathetically (by the electorate) in the future, as a result of this refugee.

 

Returning him to his home country may help a little- putting him in a German jail is likely to be even less effective towards assuaging the annoyance of those who dislike economic refugees, and wonder about the criteria for genuine refugees.

[Chomper Higgot]

42 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Before coming up with yet another legal argument as to why this murderer should spend his time in a German prison rather than being returned to his own country, perhaps you would be better served on reflecting 'justice'?

It’s you that needs the legal argument.

 

If/when found guilty the judicial process will lock him up in a German prison/secure psychiatric hospital.

 

Where is your legal argument that this should not be the case?

[bert bloggs]

5 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

It’s you that needs the legal argument.

 

If/when found guilty the judicial process will lock him up in a German prison/secure psychiatric hospital.

 

Where is your legal argument that this should not be the case?

Where he will get nice meals three times a day,tv to watch and be looked after until well enough to be released no doubt ,better a short rope and a long drop .

[dick dasterdly]

3 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

It’s you that needs the legal argument.

 

If/when found guilty the judicial process will lock him up in a German prison/secure psychiatric hospital.

 

Where is your legal argument that this should not be the case?

Keep going....

 

I'm sure everyone agrees that this refugee that tried to murder 3 people (and one was killed) deserves to spend his life in a German prison, rather than being returned to his home country 

 

I'm arguing 'justice' - as I already know that the law is an arse.

[Chomper Higgot]

Just now, dick dasterdly said:

Keep going....

 

I'm sure everyone agrees that this refugee that tried to murder 3 people (and one was killed) deserves to spend his life in a German prison, rather than being returned to his home country 

 

I'm arguing 'justice' - as I already know that the law is an arse.

I see, so you demand legal arguments from others but object to being asked to present legal arguments to support your own point of view on what constitutes justice.

 

You’re not discussing anything, you’re ranting.

 

 

[CharlieH]

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[wabothai]

10 hours ago, sunnyboy2018 said:

'Far Right' .What does that even mean? Anybody who opposes the current marxist based liberal orthodoxy is called extrme right but Merkel,  the BBC, the new Democrats et al are the extreme left wing, extreme liberals, the latter who are recognisable by their antipathy to free speech. 

By all means speak freely boy. You have been marked allready.

[metisdead]

A post not specifically related to the subject of this topic has been removed. 

[Scott]

Off-topic post reported and removed.

 

[Johnyo]

 Nope, in reply to a poster. I believe you trolling yet again.
But let's see?

"According to news channel NTV, the suspect is a citizen of Eritrea."

https://www.rte.ie/news/2019/0729/1065862-boy-killed-by-train-in-germany/
 


 
 
And Eritreans can’t go on holiday to Germany? Not saying he is a tourist but where he comes from makes no difference, lunatics are lunatics, check this crazy British mother.


https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/9614177/model-mum-23-guilty-of-murdering-her-two-young-kids-who-got-in-the-way-of-her-sex-work/








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