Johnson's top aide says lawmakers can't stop no-deal Brexit - Sunday Telegraph

[Chomper Higgot]

53 minutes ago, ardsong said:

On each Brexit post , I laugh my "a.." off, for the different comments posted. It shows that the British expats are as divided as their country folks inside (great) Britain and their politicians. It would be a pity if this comedy ends by 31st October.

The deep division is real, evident here an evident in the UK, often bitterly dividing friends and family.

 

And yet we are to believe the Government can deliver, or worse still, deliver the most extreme no-deal Brexit  on the back of a one seat majority that is itself under threat. 

 

The sensible thing to do, it put Brexit back to the people. 

[smedly]

7 minutes ago, Throatwobbler said:

What further proof do we need of the fantasy land that Brexiteers live in.

Throatwobbler - is that a yodel 

[vogie]

51 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

It’s a bit of an exaggeration to state all I ever do is call Johnson a liar.

 

Fairer to say, I frequently observe he’s a liar, which he is and which is something to keep in mind whenever pinning hopes on something he says or promises.

 

That you blame the ascension of this habitual liar to the office of PM on Remainers is no surprise, it is, after all, always somebody else’s fault.

So basically you must agree with my post, all you have added is your usual "somebody else's fault"

As much as the remainers may dislike Boris it is them that has put him in the role of PM, so insomuch it is their fault. They wanted to remain in the EU even though our electorate had voted to leave, so try to blame the Brexiteers as much as you like, it will fall on deaf ears because we all know who to apportion blame. They wanted all or nothing and this is what has happened through their selfishness.

 

[CharlieH]

Off topic post removed.

 

The Nationality of a member is NOT the topic of discussion please stop this line of commentary/remark as the post will just be removed.

Persistent repetition in this regard will lead to a posting suspension.

[Chomper Higgot]

3 minutes ago, vogie said:

So basically you must agree with my post, all you have added is your usual "somebody else's fault"

As much as the remainers may dislike Boris it is them that has put him in the role of PM, so insomuch it is their fault. They wanted to remain in the EU even though our electorate had voted to leave, so try to blame the Brexiteers as much as you like, it will fall on deaf ears because we all know who to apportion blame. They wanted all or nothing and this is what has happened through their selfishness.

 

It seems we disagree again.

 

My view is we are witnessing the very split within the Tory party that Cameron hoped to avoid when he offered the referendum, and that the failings of Brexit are hardwired into the idea that the UK split from the EU without significant and intractable problems. 

 

I've already expressed my view that Theresa May's biggest mistake was not forming a cross party coalition to deal with Brexit and that the result is a crock of Brexit that is being dictated by the hard right of the Tory Party. 

 

I have not changed my view that the people who voted for this hold responsibility too, it was a crock from the start and there never was a plan. 

 

Your continued attempts to blame the very people who warned against the problems of Brexit are noted. 

 

 

[Orac]

Cumming is wrong or being economical with the truth. Though an election could be scheduled for after 31st Oct there is a 14 day period under the Fixed Parliament Act after a vote of no confidence where a new PM could be nominated by the existing set of MPs.  Since there is probably a majority there who who vote against no deal there is a chance a PM could be selected who could command a majority on the base of limited extension and national govt. Corbyn could not get the support for that but someone from the Tory side might with commitment for early election to get Labour onside.

[puck2]

Dominic Cummings, one of architects of the 2016 campaign to leave the European Union, told ministers that Johnson could schedule a general election after the Oct. 31 Brexit deadline if he loses a vote of no confidence in parliament, the newspaper said, citing sources

 

Dreaming Johnson still will be in his MP-job on Oct. 31 ! 

 

Before I thought the stupidity virus had stricken only the US-Withe House. Now I'm sure it infested Downing Street Nr. 10, too.

[Srikcir]

1 hour ago, legend49 said:

Make it the 51st State?

Of course the UK doesn't have "states." that are generally associated with republics.

But it can impose direct UK government control of Northern Ireland which otherwise has been operating without a working government for two years. That will nullify the Good Friday Agreement and assure a hard border with The Republic of Ireland.

 

[vogie]

3 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

It seems we disagree again.

 

My view is we are witnessing the very split within the Tory party that Cameron hoped to avoid when he offered the referendum, and that the failings of Brexit are hardwired into the idea that the UK split from the EU without significant and intractable problems. 

 

I've already expressed my view that Theresa May's biggest mistake was not forming a cross party coalition to deal with Brexit and that the result is a crock of Brexit that is being dictated by the hard right of the Tory Party. 

 

I have not changed my view that the people who voted for this hold responsibility too, it was a crock from the start and there never was a plan. 

 

Your continued attempts to blame the very people who warned against the problems of Brexit are noted. 

 

 

I cannot see how forming cross party talks would have achieved anything, talking with a party that doesn't want Brexit and its sole intention is to thwart Brexit is hardly a recipe for entente cordiale I would have thought.

Labour was more to blame than the "hard right of the Tory Party" the hard right of the Tory Party, your words, wanted to fulfill the wishes of the electorate, which in most peoples eyse would make them democrats, whilst also the Lib/Democrats wanted to be undemocratic.

Brexit is not a "crock," remainers turned it into a crock by not honouring the result of the referendum, if you are not going to honour the question, don't ask it in the first place.

Parliament is to serve the people, without the people there is no parliament, the will of the people count and their voices will be heard.

 

[tomacht8]

Nice.
As tricky now the parliament aka the elected representatives of the people should be bypassed.

[Chomper Higgot]

24 minutes ago, vogie said:

I cannot see how forming cross party talks would have achieved anything, talking with a party that doesn't want Brexit and its sole intention is to thwart Brexit is hardly a recipe for entente cordiale I would have thought.

Labour was more to blame than the "hard right of the Tory Party" the hard right of the Tory Party, your words, wanted to fulfill the wishes of the electorate, which in most peoples eyse would make them democrats, whilst also the Lib/Democrats wanted to be undemocratic.

Brexit is not a "crock," remainers turned it into a crock by not honouring the result of the referendum, if you are not going to honour the question, don't ask it in the first place.

Parliament is to serve the people, without the people there is no parliament, the will of the people count and their voices will be heard.

 

Try this to help you understand. 

 

Brexit Leave, we are often reminded, was supported by people from across the political spectrum; since the Brexit vote the Government have never had a 'natural majority' relying on support from the DUP paid for with tax payer money. 

There are differing views amongst those who support Brexit, on what kind of agreement should be made with the EU, two examples are, the ERG openly calling for no deal, and Brexiteers within Labour are calling for an agreement that protects jobs and worker rights. 

 

Theresa May's deal was a purely Tory affair (nothing to do with Labour) and not supported by the far rightwing of her own party. The direction  Johnson is headed is the ERG no deal at all. 

 

The nation is split, but the Brexit being presented is only that of the rightwing or far rightwing. 

 

Forming a coalition at the outset would have produced a more balanced Brexit more aligned with the wider political views of those who voted Leave. 

 

I agree, Parliament must serve the people, all the people. 

 

A rightwing Brexit is not serving all those who voted Leave, let alone, all the people. 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 4, 2019 by Chomper Higgot

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Try this to help you understand. 

 

Brexit Leave, we are often reminded, was supported by people from across the political spectrum, since the Brexit vote the Government have never had a 'natural majority' relying on support from the DUP paid for with tax payer money. 

There are differing views amongst those who support Brexit, on what kind of agreement should be made with the EU, two examples are, the ERG openly calling for no deal, and Labour calling for an agreement that protects jobs and worker rights. 

 

Theresa May's deal was a purely Tory affair (nothing to do with Labour) and not supported by the far rightwing of her own party. The direct Johnson is headed is the ERG no deal at all. 

 

The nation is split, but the Brexit being presented is only that of the rightwing or far rightwing. 

 

Forming a coalition at the outset would have produced a more balanced Brexit more aligned with the wider political views of those who voted Leave. 

 

I agree, Parliament must serve the people, all the people. 

 

A rightwing Brexit is not serving all those who voted Leave, let alone, all the people. 

 

 

"Try this to help you understand" if you are starting to patronize I see very little point in carrying on this discussion!

[tomacht8]

1 hour ago, Libai said:

"No deal" only means no Withdrawal Agreement. Nobody at all, when the referendum took place, ever thought that, if we voted to leave, we would need the EU's permission,  a 'Withdrawal Agreement' to do so. And the fact is, that we do not need it, we merely submitted supinely to the EU's insistence that we must agree one, principally in order for them to trouser £39 billion of our money,  before we could move on to the 'deal' that really matters a FTA.   

If a business partner does not want to pay his debts, then you do not do any more business with them.
That goes for the small business on the corner as well as in the big business.

[Chomper Higgot]

4 minutes ago, vogie said:

"Try this to help you understand" if you are starting to patronize I see very little point in carrying on this discussion!

My apologies for coming across as 'patronising', I hope it doesn't deter you from addressing the points I have made. 

[sawadee1947]

3 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

I have to agree it has been mismanaged and also fudged to a level that many remaining MP's have done their best and are continuing to try and prevent the referendum result.

 

The sooner we are out of the EU the better chance for unity within the country. Keeping the UK in the EU will just create more unrest and division.

 

That's nonsense. 

Disunity you have now before October. And there is no change after BREXIT because people in UK are simply devided in pro and con, no matter what will happen. 

[nauseus]

4 hours ago, MisterTee said:

French journalist Adrien Jaulmes  neatly sums up the shifts that have already happened saying that "The UK has built its power on two principles: keep the British Isles united and the European continent divided. Today it is close to succeeding in doing the opposite."

Economic disaster may or may not be around the corner, but Brexit has already produced irreversible political turmoil and disintegration which will not go away whether or not Britain is inside or outside the EU.

The economic aspect is just one side of the coin. The more important failure is the seeming inability of the Brits to govern themselves.

Welcome to the Third World.

French journalists might better report the state of their own country before criticizing others.  

[vogie]

14 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Try this to help you understand. 

 

Brexit Leave, we are often reminded, was supported by people from across the political spectrum; since the Brexit vote the Government have never had a 'natural majority' relying on support from the DUP paid for with tax payer money. 

There are differing views amongst those who support Brexit, on what kind of agreement should be made with the EU, two examples are, the ERG openly calling for no deal, and Brexiteers within Labour are calling for an agreement that protects jobs and worker rights. 

 

Theresa May's deal was a purely Tory affair (nothing to do with Labour) and not supported by the far rightwing of her own party. The direction  Johnson is headed is the ERG no deal at all. 

 

The nation is split, but the Brexit being presented is only that of the rightwing or far rightwing. 

 

Forming a coalition at the outset would have produced a more balanced Brexit more aligned with the wider political views of those who voted Leave. 

 

I agree, Parliament must serve the people, all the people. 

 

A rightwing Brexit is not serving all those who voted Leave, let alone, all the people. 

 

 

 

 

The reason being the Tory Government having no majority is for another topic, but if the mods will allow me briefly to answer it I will. Again T May failed big time in her attempt to gain an even bigger majority than she already had, this in my view is because J Corbyn lied in his manifesto about how much he was going to give to the people of the UK, abolishing student loans etc. Whilst T May told an astonished electorate how much she was going to take off them, hardly great advice from someone seeking to gain a even greater majority. Whether this was part of the great remain plan or just down to sheer incomptency remains to be seen.

 

There are differing views amongst those who support Brexit, on what kind of agreement should be made with the EU, two examples are, the ERG openly calling for no deal, and Brexiteers within Labour are calling for an agreement that protects jobs and worker rights. 

 

I don't know where people, remainers, get this degree of Brexit from, exit means leave, go away from, I suppose realistically you can have a degree of remain, but not Brexit. As far as I can remember the ERG would have been happy with a good deal, but Mays deal was not a good deal, not for the UK, but very good for the EU, it would have been harder to leave the EU via Mays deal than leaving the EU by Art50, Mays deal tied us in indefinately.

Labours idea of keeping to the single market and the customs union also tied us in with very little scope to make our own deals, in actual affect we may have well remained in the EU in the first place, nothing would have been achieved by this, all the fun of the fair without being allowed on the round-abouts.

 

Theresa May's deal was a purely Tory affair (nothing to do with Labour) and not supported by the far rightwing of her own party. The direction  Johnson is headed is the ERG no deal at all. 

 

But I am not convinced that by including the Labour Party would have ever been a good idea, the Labour Party who were born again remainers, the Labour Party who would have turned down anything put in front of them. Let's face it when at the 11th hour and May was becoming more and more desperate she did have talks with a reluctant Corbyn. Which ever way Boris Johnson is headed now is what has been forced on the Tories for failing to deliver their promise of Brexit.

 

A rightwing Brexit is not serving all those who voted Leave, let alone, all the people. 

 

Again you have a habit of using provocative words like "rightwing Brexit" it is no such thing, it is only Brexit no matter how you want to package it.

 

[Laughing Gravy]

52 minutes ago, sawadee1947 said:

That's nonsense. 

Disunity you have now before October. And there is no change after BREXIT because people in UK are simply devided in pro and con, no matter what will happen. 

Your Irish what do you know about a divided Britain on the EU referendum. Hold on didn't Ireland have a referendum and then the result was ignored and another one produced so the EU got the right result, Hardly democratic or people who have backbone. Just rolled over.

Edited August 4, 2019 by Laughing Gravy

[usviphotography]

4 hours ago, smedly said:

and the blame sits firmly with the weak inept lying T May, I cannot think of one thing she did correctly in the last 3 years

 

She will go down in history as the worst PM ever

 

She lost control - let Brussels walk all over her - lied - (deleted) up 2017 election - destroyed the CON party, the list is endless

To say she was weak and inept implies the outcome she produced was not what she and her backers wanted all along. Lying, sure, and the way she went about delaying Brexit certainly made her appear weak and inept to the public, but there is little doubt she achieved exactly what it was she set out to do. She was always a Remainer and she quite effectively thwarted any progress on carrying out the results of the referendum for the entirety of her term. It was essentially three lost years where nothing whatsoever happened, which from a Remainer perspective was the best realistic outcome you could hope for. 

[sawadee1947]

2 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Your Irish what do you know about a divided Britain.

I reckon there are plenty of bullheaded in Britain and elsewhere ????

[Nigel Garvie]

  Quote 

Dominic Cummings, one of architects of the 2016 campaign to leave the European Union, told ministers that Johnson could schedule a general election after the Oct. 31 Brexit deadline if he loses a vote of no confidence in parliament, the newspaper said, citing sources

 

I noticed that the thread was about this devious character Mr Cummings. He really does look pretty dodgy. I haven't seen the film, but I certainly wouldn't by a second hand car from him, where was he when they were auditioning for "Minder". 

Somehow he reminds me of the Mighty Mekon, a lick of green paint, and a nice little saucer to float around on and the image is complete. Maybe the HoC is not so much a case of the lunatics taking over the asylum, more a case of the Treens taking over the Tory party!

(That's Treens not Greens BTW!).

[nauseus]

10 minutes ago, vogie said:

The reason being the Tory Government having no majority is for another topic, but if the mods will allow me briefly to answer it I will. Again T May failed big time in her attempt to gain an even bigger majority than she already had, this in my view is because J Corbyn lied in his manifesto about how much he was going to give to the people of the UK, abolishing student loans etc. Whilst T May told an astonished electorate how much she was going to take off them, hardly great advice from someone seeking to gain a even greater majority. Whether this was part of the great remain plan or just down to sheer incomptency remains to be seen.

 

There are differing views amongst those who support Brexit, on what kind of agreement should be made with the EU, two examples are, the ERG openly calling for no deal, and Brexiteers within Labour are calling for an agreement that protects jobs and worker rights. 

 

I don't know where people, remainers, get this degree of Brexit from, exit means leave, go away from, I suppose realistically you can have a degree of remain, but not Brexit. As far as I can remember the ERG would have been happy with a good deal, but Mays deal was not a good deal, not for the UK, but very good for the EU, it would have been harder to leave the EU via Mays deal than leaving the EU by Art50, Mays deal tied us in indefinately.

Labours idea of keeping to the single market and the customs union also tied us in with very little scope to make our own deals, in actual affect we may have well remained in the EU in the first place, nothing would have been achieved by this, all the fun of the fair without being allowed on the round-abouts.

 

Theresa May's deal was a purely Tory affair (nothing to do with Labour) and not supported by the far rightwing of her own party. The direction  Johnson is headed is the ERG no deal at all. 

 

But I am not convinced that by including the Labour Party would have ever been a good idea, the Labour Party who were born again remainers, the Labour Party who would have turned down anything put in front of them. Let's face it when at the 11th hour and May was becoming more and more desperate she did have talks with a reluctant Corbyn. Which ever way Boris Johnson is headed now is what has been forced on the Tories for failing to deliver their promise of Brexit.

 

A rightwing Brexit is not serving all those who voted Leave, let alone, all the people. 

 

Again you have a habit of using provocative words like "rightwing Brexit" it is no such thing, it is only Brexit no matter how you want to package it.

 

I would add that Theresa May's deal is so advantageous to the EU, at the expense of the UK, it seems that most of it must was probably drafted on the continent and then presented to her, not for approval but for acceptance.

 

Can you remember how quickly the EU approved it in record time; all those smiling faces but saying how sad they all were?  

 

Here's a reminder. So sad, sad enough to make anyone cry ???? :

 

 

 

[smedly]

17 minutes ago, usviphotography said:

To say she was weak and inept implies the outcome she produced was not what she and her backers wanted all along. Lying, sure, and the way she went about delaying Brexit certainly made her appear weak and inept to the public, but there is little doubt she achieved exactly what it was she set out to do. She was always a Remainer and she quite effectively thwarted any progress on carrying out the results of the referendum for the entirety of her term. It was essentially three lost years where nothing whatsoever happened, which from a Remainer perspective was the best realistic outcome you could hope for. 

I'm not sure she had much to do with it, but I get you point, You don't hear much about Robins these days, my guess would be he is off to Belgium 

[damascase]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

"Try this to help you understand" if you are starting to patronize I see very little point in carrying on this discussion!

Anything to avoid having to face the reality............????

[damascase]

28 minutes ago, nauseus said:

I would add that Theresa May's deal is so advantageous to the EU, at the expense of the UK, it seems that most of it must was probably drafted on the continent and then presented to her, not for approval but for acceptance.

 

Can you remember how quickly the EU approved it in record time; all those smiling faces but saying how sad they all were?  

 

Here's a reminder. So sad, sad enough to make anyone cry ???? :

 

 

 

‘.........it seems that most of it must was probably drafted on the continent and then presented to her, not for approval but for acceptance.’

Well, I’m pretty sure it was drafted on the continent, because the UK representatives arrived in Brussels completely unprepared, empty-handed and without a plan or even a clue of which direction to take. The EU, on the other hand, had used the many months between the referendum and the start of the negotiations to prepare their position, including drafting texts. Somebody has to do it! 

It looks very much like the UK has never put a comprehensive text of their own on the table........

Edited August 4, 2019 by damascase
Typo

[vogie]

1 minute ago, damascase said:

‘.........it seems that most of it must was probably drafted on the continent and then presented to her, not for approval but for acceptance.’

Well, I’m pretty sure it was drafted on the continent, because the UK representatives arrived in Brussels completely unprepared, empty-handed and without a plan or even a clue of which direction to take. The EU, on the other hand, had used the many months between the referendum and the start of the negotiations to prepare their position, including drafting texts. Somebody has to do it! 

You don't have to tell us this, we all know that the EU can do wonders and pass cucumbers.

[damascase]

2 minutes ago, vogie said:

You don't have to tell us this, we all know that the EU can do wonders and pass cucumbers.

Well, if that’s the best you can do, I feel sorry for you.....

[sammieuk1]

Dominic's cunning plan to take back control is to run the clock out what a genius order that new bus ???? 

[nauseus]

13 minutes ago, damascase said:

‘.........it seems that most of it must was probably drafted on the continent and then presented to her, not for approval but for acceptance.’

Well, I’m pretty sure it was drafted on the continent, because the UK representatives arrived in Brussels completely unprepared, empty-handed and without a plan or even a clue of which direction to take. The EU, on the other hand, had used the many months between the referendum and the start of the negotiations to prepare their position, including drafting texts. Somebody has to do it! 

And they did it - their way!

Edited August 4, 2019 by nauseus
took the VDO off nasty ending

[nauseus]

6 minutes ago, vogie said:

You don't have to tell us this, we all know that the EU can do wonders and pass cucumbers.

Sounds horrendously painful!