UK plans to end EU freedom of movement immediately in no-deal Brexit

[stevenl]

1 hour ago, CG1 Blue said:

As you say "it was proposed that NI remains in a customs union until some other trade agreement was established". We were assured that alternative arrangements would be in place within a couple of years, and the backstop could then be removed. This says to me that alternative arrangements are possible, so why didn't the EU / Ireland work with the UK on those arrangements instead? The answer is probably that the EU/Ireland would prefer to keep the UK tied in indefinitely. 

 

You'll see just how quickly alternative arrangements are put in place after 31st Oct if we leave without a deal. Where there's a will there's a way. 

So what are the UK proposals on those alternative arrangements?

[CG1 Blue]

5 minutes ago, stevenl said:

So what are the UK proposals on those alternative arrangements?

My question is why are the EU and Ireland not working with the UK on the alternative arrangements NOW. How can we expect only 1 of the 3 parties to unilaterally come up with a plan? The UK is trying (see below), but without support from the EU / Ireland it's not easy! 

 

From the ITV website: 

The Alternative Arrangements Commission was set up earlier this year.

 

- It says existing technology could be used with no need for futuristic high-tech solutions

- It also suggests the setting up of Special Economic Zones around the Londonderry/Donegal border and around Newry/Dundalk - areas where businesses would maybe get tax    breaks to encourage growth.

- It also recommends a Special Food Standard Zone - for the UK & Ireland - to avoid food standards and animal health checks at a hard border - but the commission acknowledges this idea would be "difficult to negotiate" because the EU and Ireland would have to agree to it.

- The panel says mobile units for food and animal checks could operate away from the border.

- It also acknowledges that the Northern Ireland Assembly would have to make some decisions on future arrangements.

 

[7by7]

Also from ITV, 22/8: Can an alternative to the Brexit backstop be found in 30 days?

Quote

Boris Johnson has said there are “abundant solutions” to the question of the Irish border

 

As he tells us that there are "abundant solutions" then let's go ahead on that basis; backstop while one of these "abundant solutions" is agreed and put in place. This could, with a little bit of effort, be done before 31st October.

 

Maybe this explains why he hasn't agreed to this; he hasn't got a plan!

Quote

• So what’s Mr Johnson’s plan?

He has yet to set out in detail how he proposes to get around the problem, but used his meeting with Mrs Merkel to highlight the report drawn up by the Alternative Arrangements Commission, a panel established by the Prosperity UK think tank.

 

In addition to Johnson's lack of any plan, there may also be two potential stumbling blocks to any agreement on this.

 

The first, the EU's insistence that any agreement be legally binding, is easily agreed to; that is surely in our interests, too.

 

The second is that any agreement over the border needs the approval of the Northern Ireland Assembly to work; and that Assembly has been suspended since January 2017 with no end of this in sight!

[manitoba]

5 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

My question is why are the EU and Ireland not working with the UK on the alternative arrangements NOW. How can we expect only 1 of the 3 parties to unilaterally come up with a plan? The UK is trying (see below), but without support from the EU / Ireland it's not easy! 

 

From the ITV website: 

The Alternative Arrangements Commission was set up earlier this year.

 

- It says existing technology could be used with no need for futuristic high-tech solutions

- It also suggests the setting up of Special Economic Zones around the Londonderry/Donegal border and around Newry/Dundalk - areas where businesses would maybe get tax    breaks to encourage growth.

- It also recommends a Special Food Standard Zone - for the UK & Ireland - to avoid food standards and animal health checks at a hard border - but the commission acknowledges this idea would be "difficult to negotiate" because the EU and Ireland would have to agree to it.

- The panel says mobile units for food and animal checks could operate away from the border.

- It also acknowledges that the Northern Ireland Assembly would have to make some decisions on future arrangements.

 

Not offence, but logically thinking if there is a viable alternative solution available between today and the day when UK's extension period ends - that means that the backstop never comes to an effect at all.

 

The whole idea of the backstop is to make sure that there is an alternative solution implemented, so that the lives of the people in Ireland and Northern Ireland can go on. 

 

Once there is an alternative solution, the backstop goes Puff into the void.

[superal]

11 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

My question is why are the EU and Ireland not working with the UK on the alternative arrangements NOW. How can we expect only 1 of the 3 parties to unilaterally come up with a plan? The UK is trying (see below), but without support from the EU / Ireland it's not easy! 

 

From the ITV website: 

The Alternative Arrangements Commission was set up earlier this year.

 

- It says existing technology could be used with no need for futuristic high-tech solutions

- It also suggests the setting up of Special Economic Zones around the Londonderry/Donegal border and around Newry/Dundalk - areas where businesses would maybe get tax    breaks to encourage growth.

- It also recommends a Special Food Standard Zone - for the UK & Ireland - to avoid food standards and animal health checks at a hard border - but the commission acknowledges this idea would be "difficult to negotiate" because the EU and Ireland would have to agree to it.

- The panel says mobile units for food and animal checks could operate away from the border.

- It also acknowledges that the Northern Ireland Assembly would have to make some decisions on future arrangements.

 

That sounds a reasonable , workable compromise . It allows for border checks away from the border and thus prevents a log jam at the main border . To another angle inspectors from both sides could be in place at the point of departure where goods are placed in sealed containers .

However when it comes to freedom of movement for the Irish north & south will there be p/p checks ? 

 

Putting the onus on BJ for a solution in 30 days is a sign of complacency from the EU . Even at the eleventh hour they continue to act as bureaucratic ogres which of course is one of the main reasons why the UK public voted for Brexit . Memo to BJ , tighten your reigns , calm down as the majority of the UK public support you , so run the clock down to the October 31st and in the meantime canvass other business .       

I have not heard of any EU comment on how they are going to fill the financial void after Brexit . I think it will be a difficult task especially with the main player Germany on the brink of recession . Interesting times ahead . First domino about to fall ?

     

[DannyCarlton]

12 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

My question is why are the EU and Ireland not working with the UK on the alternative arrangements NOW. How can we expect only 1 of the 3 parties to unilaterally come up with a plan? The UK is trying (see below), but without support from the EU / Ireland it's not easy! 

 

From the ITV website: 

The Alternative Arrangements Commission was set up earlier this year.

 

- It says existing technology could be used with no need for futuristic high-tech solutions

- It also suggests the setting up of Special Economic Zones around the Londonderry/Donegal border and around Newry/Dundalk - areas where businesses would maybe get tax    breaks to encourage growth.

- It also recommends a Special Food Standard Zone - for the UK & Ireland - to avoid food standards and animal health checks at a hard border - but the commission acknowledges this idea would be "difficult to negotiate" because the EU and Ireland would have to agree to it.

- The panel says mobile units for food and animal checks could operate away from the border.

- It also acknowledges that the Northern Ireland Assembly would have to make some decisions on future arrangements.

 

And who are  The Alternative Arrangements Commission?

 

 

It's members are mostly hard line Tory MPs. More spin from the Brexit campaign.

 

The EU and the UK negotiating team have been looking at this problem for 3 years.

 

There is no current technological solution to the border issue. Experts are of the opinion that it's 3 to 5 years away and some doubt that it will fully tackle all the issues surrounding the border. Even Boris admits that it's at least 2 years away.

 

More fake news fodder for the howling Brexiteers.

[bristolboy]

14 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

As you say "it was proposed that NI remains in a customs union until some other trade agreement was established". We were assured that alternative arrangements would be in place within a couple of years, and the backstop could then be removed. This says to me that alternative arrangements are possible, so why didn't the EU / Ireland work with the UK on those arrangements instead? The answer is probably that the EU/Ireland would prefer to keep the UK tied in indefinitely. 

 

You'll see just how quickly alternative arrangements are put in place after 31st Oct if we leave without a deal. Where there's a will there's a way. 

Who did the reassuring? Was it the EU?

[transam]

12 hours ago, 7by7 said:

Also from ITV, 22/8: Can an alternative to the Brexit backstop be found in 30 days?

 

As he tells us that there are "abundant solutions" then let's go ahead on that basis; backstop while one of these "abundant solutions" is agreed and put in place. This could, with a little bit of effort, be done before 31st October.

 

Maybe this explains why he hasn't agreed to this; he hasn't got a plan!

 

In addition to Johnson's lack of any plan, there may also be two potential stumbling blocks to any agreement on this.

 

The first, the EU's insistence that any agreement be legally binding, is easily agreed to; that is surely in our interests, too.

 

The second is that any agreement over the border needs the approval of the Northern Ireland Assembly to work; and that Assembly has been suspended since January 2017 with no end of this in sight!

Are you a secret insider, you seem to know everything.....? ????

[sandyf]

16 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

As you say "it was proposed that NI remains in a customs union until some other trade agreement was established". We were assured that alternative arrangements would be in place within a couple of years, and the backstop could then be removed. This says to me that alternative arrangements are possible, so why didn't the EU / Ireland work with the UK on those arrangements instead? The answer is probably that the EU/Ireland would prefer to keep the UK tied in indefinitely. 

 

You'll see just how quickly alternative arrangements are put in place after 31st Oct if we leave without a deal. Where there's a will there's a way. 

You do not seem to realise that the proposed long term solution cannot be discussed until after the UK has left, the whole purpose of the transition period. The backstop was the insurance in the event of those discussions failing. No deal means no transition period which will result in decisions being made in a panic, something that never works out well.

Of course there will be alternative arrangements put in place with a no deal. Alternative arrangements have already been voiced and rejected by the UK, come no deal Bojo will have little option other than to concede on something or be held responsible for checks at the border. The ball is well and truly in his court.

At the end of the day, international law will take precedence, not what Bojo and his merry men think.

[stevenl]

1 hour ago, transam said:

Are you a secret insider, you seem to know everything.....? ????

A novel concept to you, but he knows what he is talking about.

[7by7]

9 hours ago, transam said:

Are you a secret insider, you seem to know everything.....? ????

If you bothered to read the links I provide you would easily see where my information comes from!

 

In this case, the same source as that provided by your fellow Brexiteer @CG1 Blue in the preceding post!

 

So why don't you ask him the same question?

[Slip]

On 8/23/2019 at 1:57 AM, Loiner said:

Well I’m obviously not on the same tangent as you. What is your point? You think I pick FOM for the NI border but pick some thing else for Calais. Not so.
I’m happy to pick and choose from the EU cherry tree but FOM is not one that I would pick anytime.
Please explain clearly and put me on your tangent because you are not orbiting the same circle.

Tangents don't orbit circles, but I enjoy your mixing of metaphors very much Loiner.  Please never stop. ????

[alan grice]

I was restricted of movement because i had to go to work everyday. Now i can go where i like.


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

[emptypockets]

On ‎8‎/‎21‎/‎2019 at 11:39 AM, DannyCarlton said:

So your issue is mainly with Africans and South Asians? I have found that generally to be the case and I too hgave concerns about large numbers of people migrating to the UK from the 2 countries that you mentioned. However, as I previously said, leaving the EU will not stem that particular flow one iota. In fact there is a good argument to support the fact that it's likely to increase.

Should have listened to Enoch instead of vilifying him. Now you have what you deserve....

[emptypockets]

On ‎8‎/‎21‎/‎2019 at 12:03 PM, DannyCarlton said:

And brexiteers who only post rhetoric and personal attacks on remainer posters instead of reasoned debate, also contribute nothing to the conversation and only serve to intensify the divisions between us. They seriously need to grow up. The majority of us are Brits and expats, we should be working through this together not creating a bitchfest.

No the majority are not Brits amongst the expats in Thailand. Granted the Brits are the most vocal, but nonetheless are not the majority.

[emptypockets]

On ‎8‎/‎21‎/‎2019 at 12:35 PM, yogi100 said:

I'm not knocking the NHS nor anyone who works in it no matter where they come from. And you know I'm not.

 

But from another aspect of the Brexit and the immigration issue a different friend of mine to the one I mentioned in KCH just waited 18 months for a hip replacement. 

 

He'd worked all his life and always paid his dues.

 

See if you know why he waited for so long after it was decided he needed one.

 

Every day on the news even on the MSM we keep hearing about how over stretched the NHS is and how long waiting times are. We also hear of folk waiting two weeks to see their general practitioner (local doctor). We also hear about the massive amount of money health tourism is costing us.

 

Many of these 'health tourists' need interpreters to speak for them, The NHS through the tax payers (us) have to pay for them as well. Because of this extra expense those in need of interpreters are seen to first.

 

The general consensus of opinion is that the NHS in spite of all its virtues is in a mess.

Please post this in the insurance for retirees thread where everyone thinks they don't need insurance as they can scarper back to the UK at a moments notice and be taken care of on demand.

[emptypockets]

On ‎8‎/‎21‎/‎2019 at 1:31 PM, Bullie said:

So now you are finally able to stop hard-working Polish people from contributing to the net worth of the UK. What are you going to do about the 248.000 Indian and Pakistani immigrants that flood England's shores year on year?

Put them in a lifeboat with enough fuel to get them back across the channel. Works in Australia. Expensive initially but very effective. WE don't want YOU. Get the message.

WE will decide on WHO comes into our country and the manner in which they will come.

[stevenl]

17 minutes ago, emptypockets said:

No the majority are not Brits amongst the expats in Thailand. Granted the Brits are the most vocal, but nonetheless are not the majority.

Nowhere is it claimed the majority of expats are Brits.

[emptypockets]

On ‎8‎/‎21‎/‎2019 at 1:36 PM, transam said:

 

Thanks Trans...love Dad's Army...… I reckon so many members of the forum would slot straight in there. Could make a funny thread....who is most like the character.

Edited August 24, 2019 by emptypockets

[emptypockets]

On ‎8‎/‎21‎/‎2019 at 1:37 PM, alanrchase said:

Ok. I am willing to accept that the link I posted is rubbish if you provide a link to back up your claim. By the way, over 50% of the cost to the NHS is due to British expats abusing the system.

Sent from my SM-A500F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Interesting claim re the expats. Not unbelievable.

[brewsterbudgen]

Should have listened to Enoch instead of vilifying him. Now you have what you deserve....

"Rivers of blood"? Did I miss something?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[emptypockets]

On ‎8‎/‎21‎/‎2019 at 1:50 PM, juice777 said:

"generations of my people have lived for thousands of years."

Amusing you are white hats probably a mix of all European nations Jewish and maybe a bit of African ever had your DNA tested?

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk
 

And most can be traced back to their mothers who had it off with Genghis Khan and a few others. No big deal we all came from the same roots in Africa. Throw in a few genetic deviations and there you have it....we all hate each other because we are different. Chuck in some ignorance called religion. Absolute joke.

[emptypockets]

13 minutes ago, brewsterbudgen said:

"Rivers of blood"? Did I miss something?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

You don't remember Enoch Powells speech? I was very young at the time and only realised what he said at a later age. It was very controversial even at the time. Google Rivers of blood Enoch Powell. Early 60's as I recall.

[stevenl]

4 minutes ago, emptypockets said:

You don't remember Enoch Powells speech? I was very young at the time and only realised what he said at a later age. It was very controversial even at the time. Google Rivers of blood Enoch Powell. Early 60's as I recall.

I think he is referring to 'where are the rivers of blood Powell told us we'd get and you just told us he was right'.

[emptypockets]

47 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Nowhere is it claimed the majority of expats are Brits.

And brexiteers who only post rhetoric and personal attacks on remainer posters instead of reasoned debate, also contribute nothing to the conversation and only serve to intensify the divisions between us. They seriously need to grow up. The majority of us are Brits and expats, we should be working through this together not creating a bitchfest.

 

 

I beg to differ or are you just nitpicking?

Edited August 24, 2019 by emptypockets

[CG1 Blue]

16 hours ago, DannyCarlton said:

And who are  The Alternative Arrangements Commission?

 

 

It's members are mostly hard line Tory MPs. More spin from the Brexit campaign.

 

The EU and the UK negotiating team have been looking at this problem for 3 years.

 

There is no current technological solution to the border issue. Experts are of the opinion that it's 3 to 5 years away and some doubt that it will fully tackle all the issues surrounding the border. Even Boris admits that it's at least 2 years away.

 

More fake news fodder for the howling Brexiteers.

If the EU/Ireland had properly engaged with the UK to explore alternative arrangements 2-3 years ago, we'd be almost there by now. But they always hoped they could force the UK to do a U-turn and revoke Article 50. 

 

I have no doubt that the EU / Ireland have a plan to avoid the need for border infrastructure from Nov 1st if there is no deal. They're just not going to admit it at this stage. 

 

And who else but pro-Brexit people would you expect to be in Prosperity UK? Remainers are not interested in finding a solution to the border issue, because they want the UK to remain! 

 

Using terms like 'Howling Brexiteers' gets us nowhere. 

[CG1 Blue]

14 hours ago, sandyf said:

You do not seem to realise that the proposed long term solution cannot be discussed until after the UK has left

And there lies one of the biggest problems. The EU dictated the timetable / sequence of events, and TM and her sidekick Robbins rolled over. 

[sotonowl]

UK to adopt Thai policy of good guys in and bad guys out, seems fair enough to me, and about time too, UK has too many European criminals, time to send them home.

[DannyCarlton]

4 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

If the EU/Ireland had properly engaged with the UK to explore alternative arrangements 2-3 years ago, we'd be almost there by now. But they always hoped they could force the UK to do a U-turn and revoke Article 50. 

 

I have no doubt that the EU / Ireland have a plan to avoid the need for border infrastructure from Nov 1st if there is no deal. They're just not going to admit it at this stage. 

 

And who else but pro-Brexit people would you expect to be in Prosperity UK? Remainers are not interested in finding a solution to the border issue, because they want the UK to remain! 

 

Using terms like 'Howling Brexiteers' gets us nowhere. 

They did engage. They spent more time on trying to resolve the border issue than any other single issue. For the last 12 months it's been the only issue. Both sides want a practical resolution to it. The fact remains that besides the backstop the only long therm resolution would be through the use of advanced technology to create an e border. Technology that doesn't yet exist. Why do you think that Boris asked Merkel for 2 years to find a solution.

 

My use of the word "howling" isn't prejorative. It means "very" or "extremely", as in "howling gale".

 

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/howling

 

"mainly UK used to emphasize that something is very good or bad:

Neither film was a howling success.

This is yet another howling example of British hypocrisy.

It is a howling omission, Mr Brown."

 

It's always been part of my vocabulary, no offence intended.

 

 

Edited August 24, 2019 by DannyCarlton

[kevin612]

I think Britain will have financials crisis.