U.S. warship sails near disputed South China Sea islands amid trade tensions

[bristolboy]

10 hours ago, SpaceKadet said:

But they got badly beaten by the Chinese army in the Korean war.

Were that the case, there would now be only 1 Korea.

And of course that was almost 70 years ago. Do you think that the nature of conventional warfare might have changed just a bit since then?

[spidermike007]

Many people automatically laud the incredible power of the US military. Yet, other than Panama and Grenada, the US has not won a war since WWII. China is a superpower. The people have an infinitely greater will for, and tolerance of suffering, than the coddled, and spoiled American public. So, in the event of a major war, who do you think will have the will to hang in there, when it comes to real suffering and deprivation of the public? Which nation has a longer term plan? Which nation is more highly motivate to regain what it sees at it's rightful place in history. After all, if you do not subscribe to a whitewashed, Eurocentric version of history, China was the major world superpower for 700 years, from about 1100AD to about 1800AD. 

 

There are so many variables to consider when it comes to this. Cyber is an element the US has never had to deal with, in a major conflict. China likely has the capacity to take out communication with most of the defense department satellites. What then? How about the electric grid? The nuclear reactors? The list goes on and on and on. 

 

China has 2 million active servicemen and women, making the PLA the largest armed force in the world. 

 

I am an American. I do not want to see the US get it's butt kicked by anyone. And I am no fan of the Chicoms. Have nothing against the Chinese people, but I despise their government, as I do mine, and the local one too. But, I am stating it, as I see it. 

 

 

Edited August 30, 2019 by spidermike007

[zydeco]

24 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

The people have an infinitely greater will for, and tolerance of suffering, than the coddled, and spoiled American public

And how do you know this? Oh, sure, we can assume the US millennial population is probably soft and cowardly. But what makes you think the Chinese are any better? Most of them can't even go on a tour without being led around by a group leader. And the PLA has zero combat experience since 1979, when a depleted and worn out Vietnam knocked the living daylights out of them. Today's Chinese are every bit as hooked on video, internet chat, and games as any other Asian population. Frankly, I think they would fold in a second. This isn't a matter of them just swooping in and slaughtering unarmed Uighurs and Tibetans. Far too much is made of China's "long term" thinking. Those people can't even think beyond next week, or they wouldn't be poisoning their rivers, land, air, and oceans. They wouldn't have built those silly islands that finally rang a bell and showed people what they were dealing with. Xi is a pompous idiot who, like all messianic tyrants, wants to see his gains come in place before he dies. But the only reason he is in place to do so is because the US handed everything over to them for free, especially the corrupt, money hungry Clintons.

[Mavideol]

17 hours ago, Isaan sailor said:

China thinks they own the South China Sea.  And China thinks they control the Mekong.  And China thinks they will own Cambodia and Laos and Thailand.  Chuck communist Fina.

hear some people speaking about the Mekong in Isaan being with little water as the Chinese control the flow.... and they want to be called good/peaceful neighbors

[spidermike007]

42 minutes ago, zydeco said:

And how do you know this? Oh, sure, we can assume the US millennial population is probably soft and cowardly. But what makes you think the Chinese are any better? Most of them can't even go on a tour without being led around by a group leader. And the PLA has zero combat experience since 1979, when a depleted and worn out Vietnam knocked the living daylights out of them. Today's Chinese are every bit as hooked on video, internet chat, and games as any other Asian population. Frankly, I think they would fold in a second. This isn't a matter of them just swooping in and slaughtering unarmed Uighurs and Tibetans. Far too much is made of China's "long term" thinking. Those people can't even think beyond next week, or they wouldn't be poisoning their rivers, land, air, and oceans. They wouldn't have built those silly islands that finally rang a bell and showed people what they were dealing with. Xi is a pompous idiot who, like all messianic tyrants, wants to see his gains come in place before he dies. But the only reason he is in place to do so is because the US handed everything over to them for free, especially the corrupt, money hungry Clintons.

Well, thank you for revealing your political alliances. I always get a kick out of Trump fans, who take about how corrupt the Clintons are. I agree that they are. But, he is not every bit as corrupt? 

 

It is fairly typical of conservatives to underestimate China, and over estimate their Master, and America's might and will. I am American, and I have lived there most of my life. I have seen how incredibly soft the average American is, first hand. And my guess is that they would not be prepared for any real level of deprivation, unless the population was convinced it was real war, for real reasons of importance. Not your typical Vietnam, Grenada, Panama, Afghanistan or Iraqi campaign. There is alot of flag waving going on in America these days. It has always compelled me to consider just how patriotic, and willing to sacrifice for their nation, most people in the US would be, if it was really asked, and required of them.  

[WeekendRaider]

not disputed any more.  August 29, 2019.

 

today's Nikkei Asian Review.  Xi and Duterte have reached an agreement.

 

   

[zydeco]

25 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

Well, thank you for revealing your political alliances. I always get a kick out of Trump fans, who take about how corrupt the Clintons are. I agree that they are. But, he is not every bit as corrupt?

Well, I've only said that Trump is a corrupt, deceptive, liar about a couple of hundred times on this forum. Just said it elsewhere today. But you have a cookie cutter mentality. Certain word click in your brain and you go ahead and tick off every box down the list. But, yes, it was the Clintons who gave China access to leading edge missile technology with the Loral satellite deal. But if it makes you feel better, W. Bush no better, and Obama only a little better. American presidents have been selling US interests out to China for over 40 years.

 

There is a reason Trump and the Clintons used to be friends. Both sleazy, immoral, and degenerate. It's just that the Clintons were better liars.

[spidermike007]

10 minutes ago, zydeco said:

Well, I've only said that Trump is a corrupt, deceptive, liar about a couple of hundred times on this forum. Just said it elsewhere today. But you have a cookie cutter mentality. Certain word click in your brain and you go ahead and tick off every box down the list. But, yes, it was the Clintons who gave China access to leading edge missile technology with the Loral satellite deal. But if it makes you feel better, W. Bush no better, and Obama only a little better. American presidents have been selling US interests out to China for over 40 years.

 

There is a reason Trump and the Clintons used to be friends. Both sleazy, immoral, and degenerate. It's just that the Clintons were better liars.

Well, I feel about the same way you do. I think nearly every politician at the national level, worldwide, has sold their soul, and has completely abandoned any pursuit of integrity. It is really obvious in the US, where rampant corruption manifests itself in the form of PACS and lobbying. Accept my apologies from someone who feels the same way about both Trump and Clinton. And nearly the same about Obama, except the man did have a bit more dignity and was not a pathological liar, like that pair. 

Edited August 30, 2019 by spidermike007

[tonbridgebrit]

2 hours ago, WeekendRaider said:

not disputed any more.  August 29, 2019.

 

today's Nikkei Asian Review.  Xi and Duterte have reached an agreement.

 

   

And this post is massively important. The Philippines are "well in" with Beijing, they are now an ally of the Peoples' Republic of China. And bear in mind that Duterte was democratically elected.

Looking at whatever map, the Philippines do have large chunks of the South China Sea. The Philippines, are they allowed to claim the South China Sea ? Are they allowed to build islands on all the bits of the South China Sea that are closest to the Philippines ? Surely, they are ?

And are the Philippines allowed to grant permission to Beijing, to build more Chinese dots in the South China Sea ? Surely, they are allowed to do this ?

Is Washington claiming that Duterte is a Beijing puppet ? The claim is absurd. There's a far stronger claim that Marcos was a Washington puppet, and Marcos controlled the Philippines for two decades.

[bristolboy]

2 minutes ago, tonbridgebrit said:

And this post is massively important. The Philippines are "well in" with Beijing, they are now an ally of the Peoples' Republic of China. And bear in mind that Duterte was democratically elected.

Looking at whatever map, the Philippines do have large chunks of the South China Sea. The Philippines, are they allowed to claim the South China Sea ? Are they allowed to build islands on all the bits of the South China Sea that are closest to the Philippines ? Surely, they are ?

And are the Philippines allowed to grant permission to Beijing, to build more Chinese dots in the South China Sea ? Surely, they are allowed to do this ?

Is Washington claiming that Duterte is a Beijing puppet ? The claim is absurd. There's a far stronger claim that Marcos was a Washington puppet, and Marcos controlled the Philippines for two decades.

Duarte's tolerance of the Chinese is not shared by most Filipinos. Much the same as Trump's warm feelings towards Putin and Russia are not shared by most Americans.

The June 22 to 26 survey of 1,200 adults showed that 51 percent of Filipinos had little trust in China, 21 percent were undecided while 27 percent had much trust. This resulted in net trust of -24, worse than the -6 recorded in March, SWS said.

The same survey found that 81 percent had much trust in the US, the Philippines' treaty ally, 11 percent were undecided while 8 percent had little trust, for a net trust rating of 73, up from 60 last March, the pollster said.

https://news.abs-cbn.com/news/07/19/19/more-filipinos-distrust-doubt-chinas-good-intentions-sws-poll

 

MORE Filipinos have expressed distrust in China as of end-June month after the alleged sinking of a Filipino fishing boat by a Chinese vessel in the South China Sea, according to Pulse Asia Research Inc.

Distrust in China rose to 74% last month, 14 points higher than in December, the polling company said in an emailed statement on Friday...

The United States, Japan and Australia enjoyed higher trust ratings last month at 89%, 79% and 76% respectively.

https://www.bworldonline.com/more-filipinos-distrust-china-pulse-asia-poll/

[Morch]

4 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

Well, thank you for revealing your political alliances. I always get a kick out of Trump fans, who take about how corrupt the Clintons are. I agree that they are. But, he is not every bit as corrupt? 

 

It is fairly typical of conservatives to underestimate China, and over estimate their Master, and America's might and will. I am American, and I have lived there most of my life. I have seen how incredibly soft the average American is, first hand. And my guess is that they would not be prepared for any real level of deprivation, unless the population was convinced it was real war, for real reasons of importance. Not your typical Vietnam, Grenada, Panama, Afghanistan or Iraqi campaign. There is alot of flag waving going on in America these days. It has always compelled me to consider just how patriotic, and willing to sacrifice for their nation, most people in the US would be, if it was really asked, and required of them.  

 

Even if one was to accept your negative, wide-brush take on USA and Americans, it still wouldn't account for the projected image of China and the Chinese as it appeared in your post.

[Sujo]

20 hours ago, wwest5829 said:

You are assuming that the recent unilateral claim to the South China Sea is somehow valid? The International Court in the Hague has already ruled that this claim is without merit. All nations have the right of passage at sea and in the air no matter the recent unilateral claims of China that the entire South China sea is Chinese sovereign territory. Does not wash ...

Unless china decides to send a few ships near cuba. Then US would think same same but different.

[Morch]

25 minutes ago, Sujo said:

Unless china decides to send a few ships near cuba. Then US would think same same but different.

 

Russian surveillance ships sometimes park just outside USA territorial waters. Russian navy ships visit (as far as I recall) Havana. Don't know that the USA took action or formally strongly objected.

[wwest5829]

1 hour ago, Sujo said:

Unless china decides to send a few ships near cuba. Then US would think same same but different.

I suppose you are talking about Russia landing and installing missiles in Cuba as was done in the early 1960s? And you are trying to equate that with passage trough international waters? Doesn't wash. Try again ... As long as the international recognized territorial waters are observed the USA cannot object to free passage through the water. Our point exactly.

[metisdead]

Some off topic posts have been removed. 

[mania]

On 8/28/2019 at 9:53 PM, bristolboy said:

You're right about the effect of the US canceling its debts to China. But you're wrong about the disastrous effect of China cashing in its T-bonds. Right now China holds about 5 percent of the USA's outstanding debts

Is it 5%? (regarding T-bills,notes & bonds)

 

Quote

The U.S. debt to China is $1.11 trillion as of May 2019. That's 27% of the $4.1 trillion in Treasury bills, notes, and bonds held by foreign countries. The rest of the $22 trillion national debt is owned by either the American people or by the U.S.

https://www.thebalance.com/u-s-debt-to-china-how-much-does-it-own-3306355

 

All that aside & more directly to the OP....IS now really the time to be taunting?

 

Edited August 30, 2019 by mania

[stevenl]

35 minutes ago, mania said:

Is it 5%? (regarding T-bills,notes & bonds)

 

https://www.thebalance.com/u-s-debt-to-china-how-much-does-it-own-3306355

 

All that aside & more directly to the OP....IS now really the time to be taunting?

 

1.1 trillion of outstanding 26.1 trillion according to your link.

[mania]

42 minutes ago, stevenl said:

1.1 trillion of outstanding 26.1 trillion according to your link.

"That's 27% of the $4.1 trillion in Treasury bills, notes, and bonds held by foreign countries.  "

 

Yes not total debt but T-Bills, Notes & Bonds held by foreign countries as stated

Edited August 31, 2019 by mania

[stevenl]

14 minutes ago, mania said:

"That's 27% of the $4.1 trillion in Treasury bills, notes, and bonds held by foreign countries.  "

 

Yes not total debt but T-Bills, Notes & Bonds held by foreign countries as stated

Yes, but that was not what the claim was in the post you reacted to.

[Guitarzan]

Considering the present situation in Hong Kong, and the CCP lowering the authoritarian rhetoric. It’s clear they are damned if they do,  damed if they don’t. The eyes and financial markets of the world will condemn the CCP if they resort to another crack down like Tianiman square. 

 

So this would be an excellent time for Taiwan to declare independence from China! 

[stevenl]

3 minutes ago, Guitarzan said:

Considering the present situation in Hong Kong, and the CCP lowering the authoritarian rhetoric. It’s clear they are damned if they do,  damed if they don’t. The eyes and financial markets of the world will condemn the CCP if they resort to another crack down like Tianiman square. 

 

So this would be an excellent time for Taiwan to declare independence from China! 

They can do whatever they like, and after a few days of upheaval everything will be back to normal.

[metisdead]

A post containing a derogatory slang comment has been removed as well as a reply.