Illegal short term Rentals in Pattaya Condos

[LuciusCornelius]

I have a condo in Unixx South Pattaya and the place has been getting its fair share of daily rentals.  The usual signage has been put in place by admin, but it has done little to deter many co-owners from subscribing to the Airbnb model.  If allowed to continue, I think we are on a certain path to increased CAM fees and lessened rental appeal / sales value.  

 

I would be happy to cooperate with anyone else who is a co-owner in Unixx and wants to take action to resolve this situation.  

 

I am also curious if anyone here has had any success in attempting to combat this issue elsewhere in Pattaya?

[BestB]

Did you not think prior to buying? 

[LuciusCornelius]

About this specific issue, I did not give it much thought.  At the time of purchase, about 4.5 years ago now, the short term rental phenomenon had not reached its present scale.  

 

[BestB]

2 minutes ago, LuciusCornelius said:

About this specific issue, I did not give it much thought.  At the time of purchase, about 4.5 years ago now, the short term rental phenomenon had not reached its present scale.  

 

4.5 years ago it was just as busy as it is now but less open

[NCC1701A]

1 minute ago, LuciusCornelius said:

About this specific issue, I did not give it much thought.  At the time of purchase, about 4.5 years ago now, the short term rental phenomenon had not reached its present scale.  

 

are the short term renters Chinese? I saw scores of them being dropped off at The Base condo building with their rolling suitcases in tow.  

[LuciusCornelius]

I have not been able to ascertain their nationalities.  Certainly some are Chinese, others seem to be from India. Still others from the middle east or Europe / NA. 

[champers]

Some condo managements are keener to keep out short-term renters than others; Centric Sea on Pattaya 2nd Road spring to mind. We can all take a reasonable guess why other managements are more lax. The OP has the right idea of seeking out support from other owners. Good luck.

[LuciusCornelius]

Does anyone know which government agencies are the best ones to complain to about this situation? Will going to the police be worthwhile? I heard In Bangkok and HuaHin they did actually prosecute several cases and one condo in Bangkok was raided. 

[Henryford]

I think that Unixx, like the Base, is a lost cause. They were both built as hotels not condos. In my condo it only works because we have the full support the Committee and the Office/JPM.

 

One option yourself would be to look up on AirBnB which condos are offering stays under 1 month and report them to Immigration.

Edited September 18, 2019 by Henryford

[LuciusCornelius]

23 hours ago, Henryford said:

I think that Unixx, like the Base, is a lost cause. They were both built as hotels not condos. In my condo it only works because we have the full support the Committee and the Office/JPM.

 

One option yourself would be to look up on AirBnB which condos are offering stays under 1 month and report them to Immigration.

Neither Unixx or The Base has a hotel licence to my knowledge.  Therefore, I don't think they were built as hotels.  Usually, hotel licencing provisions play an important role in the design and construction of a building.  As a consequence, it is either something they get at inception or something that is very hard to obtain later.  I don't think any of the individual co-owners in Unixx has a hotel licence and applying for exemption (under the 4 room / 20 guest rules) is not viable for a condo building. 

 

The immigration TM30 issue would be difficult to prove.  Besides, It is possible that co-owners are actually registering their Airbnb guests using the online portal.  It is easy to do.  The fact that the rental is illegal falls under the Hotel act 2004 and is not the business of immigration.  They will just concern themselves with TM30 registration or lack thereof.  It would also be easy for non-compliant co-owners to simply register future guests online with immigration and continue their Airbnb business.  As a result, even if a few got caught and fined initially, it would not really move the needle on this issue, but thanks for the suggestion. 

 

I agree totally with you that the full support of the committee and Admin is an essential ingredient in solving this.  I am trying on this front too.  It was actually my first port of call.  In order for efforts in this direction to have more momentum, I want to reach out to other like minded co-owners who are annoyed by this daily rental phenomenon.  Pushing together, we will carry more weight. This is the purpose of this thread.

 

 

 

[Henryford]

I didn't mean they were built as hotels but these type of large condos are usually only bought by prospective renters, like The Edge as well. Who would want to live there?

[LuciusCornelius]

Well, both of my long term tenants have been quite happy living there for 2 and 3 years respectively.  Personally, I can see what you mean.  The units in the Base and Unixx are pretty small and I would not want to live there myself.  Both have decent locations though with easy access to Central and walking street.  The Base is obviously the better located of the two complexes. 

 

I think both were designed and constructed for short stays such as weekend trips from Bangkok.  That is, designed for co-owners and their families to use on that basis. Hence, the smaller unit size.  

[Peterw42]

OP, My condo office used to have some success directly contacting AirBnB, "I am the JP for this block, this rental is illegal please remove it" etc.

Lift access cards can be a great way of controlling it, one card per unit only issued to owner etc.

At the end of the day you wont get far without the condo office and committee etc being on side, unfortunately they are often not.

[LuciusCornelius]

Thanks for getting back to me Peter. I will see if I can persuade them to do that - contacting Airbnb directly.  It's another arrow in my quiver anyway.  I would be shocked if Airbnb were overly responsive in such instances though.  I suspect they will drag their heels in each and every case. It would be in their economic interest to do so.  I imagine similar tactics could be used with booking and Agoda.  However, in the case of Unixx, there are indications that some co-owners are using Chinese / Indian websites to facilitate bookings.  That could be far more problematic to resolve.  

[Chazar]

20 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

Lift access cards can be a great way of controlling it, one card per unit only issued to owner etc.

impractical if 2-3 people  live  in  a  room or  you  need  a  maid to  call  in  etc

[Chazar]

5 minutes ago, LuciusCornelius said:

Thanks for getting back to me Peter. I will see if I can persuade them to do that - contacting Airbnb directly.  It's another arrow in my quiver anyway.  I would be shocked if Airbnb were overly responsive in such instances though.  I suspect they will drag their heels in each and every case. It would be in their economic interest to do so.  I imagine similar tactics could be used with booking and Agoda.  However, in the case of Unixx, there are indications that some co-owners are using Chinese / Indian websites to facilitate bookings.  That could be far more problematic to resolve.  

Many Chinese  owners  now also so even more problematic

[LuciusCornelius]

Foreigners renting out short term on AIrbnb is illegal under the foreign business act. Doing so counts as a commercial enterprise.  They would need a work visa and a business licence. Actually, I envisage more issues dealing with the Thai co-owner contingent than the foreign co-owners.  The biggest part of the issue in Unixx is with Thais that own several Units and allow them to be managed for Airbnb or other short term rentals by a manager.  That manager may take control of a large number of units from several co-owners and use that to facilitate larger scale bookings from tour groups etc.  The actual owners themselves may not even know who is staying in their units. 

 

It is this industrial scale short term rental business that I have the biggest problem with. While I do not condone someone renting short term illegally, I am not bothered by a co-owner with one or two units that has Airbnb guests a few times  a month.  Intensive occupancy by large groups is another matter.  The advent of that type of trade in the building underlies my interest in trying my best to deal with this issue. 

[thaitero]

If i remember right there were some recent changes in Unixx condo rules giving friends of co-owners right to use common facilities, not only tenants and co-owners..
Reason for this is as i understand there are rentals which are just agreed way that co-owner has a " friend" visiting.

[LuciusCornelius]

Yes, there were some changes to the building rules at an EGM in February 2019 that govern authorized guests of co-owners and granted them the right to use the common facilities in the same way as co-owners themselves.  This was certainly a motion in favor of the short term rental lobby. 

 

However, there is a world of difference between a legitimate social guest and a paying guest.  Any guest that is paying for rental of the accommodation on a short term (under 30 day) basis in Unixx or elsewhere is entering into a commercial contract for accommodation governed by the Hotel act.  Therefore, the change in the house rules is meaningless.  The rules of a condo have to be in compliance with the law of the state and cannot be interpreted in a way which oversteps those boundaries.  As such, it was nothing more than a symbolic gesture to alter the rules to allow guests of co-owners access to the full range of facilities.  In practice, short term rentals are still forbidden and unless the co-owners want to stop charging their "guests" or the law changes, they always will be.

 

What the change in the rules does illustrate is that there are a substantial number of co-owners that seem to support access to the building for short term renters / guests. That is definitely true and massively complicates efforts to get the committee and admin on board.  Turnout at that  EGM was not great, however.  They barely assembled a quorum. So there are many supporters of the ST rent model, but it is far short of a majority in the building.  They are perhaps better organised, having perhaps been motivated by a harsh anti-short term rental stance taken by other co-owners (Not me) at an earlier meeting. 

Edited September 19, 2019 by LuciusCornelius
deletion / typo

[Chazar]

3 hours ago, LuciusCornelius said:

Foreigners renting out short term on AIrbnb is illegal under the foreign business act. Doing so counts as a commercial enterprise

Tell that ministers  son.

[LuciusCornelius]

2 minutes ago, Chazar said:

Tell that ministers  son.

I'm not certain what you mean there.  I don't think any of the foreigners renting out accommodation Airbnb style are related to government ministers.  It's not impossible, but it is unlikely.  

[Chazar]

Just now, LuciusCornelius said:

I'm not certain what you mean there.  I don't think any of the foreigners renting out accommodation Airbnb style are related to government ministers.  It's not impossible, but it is unlikely.  

Thought air bnb was  still illegal but  impossible to keep up with the constantly  changing rules here, didnt some ministers son or someone in a big position at immigration mention his son also had problems registering?

[LuciusCornelius]

2 minutes ago, Chazar said:

Thought air bnb was  still illegal but  impossible to keep up with the constantly  changing rules here, didnt some ministers son or someone in a big position at immigration mention his son also had problems registering?

Airbnb is not illegal.  It is legal to rent your property out on Airbnb for periods of 30 days or more.  Anything under that requires a hotel licence or registration for exemption with the hotels registrar. Exemption is only available to licensed commercial businesses and in structures with fewer then 4 rooms or that accommodate fewer than 20 guests.  Condo buildings are massive (unixx is anyway) and have no hope of getting an exemption.  The fact that you can't legitimately run a business in a condo also renders getting an exemption impossible.

 

The rules on this have actually been pretty static.  However, it was a nebulous area of law until January 2018, when two cases went to court in Huahin and the court issued fines to co-owners renting their units on a ST basis. That judgement provoked a rollout of the "This is not a Hotel" type signage you see in almost every condo.

 

The issue here is not the legal situation.  That is quite clear cut.  The issue is enforcement.  

 

I'm sorry but I am not familiar with the case you mentioned.  What was he trying to register as? A commercial enterprise in a condo?  A hotel in a condo?  I can imagine why he would have problems with that. If you mean registering foreign guests via a TM30 that is fairly straightforward.  There are postal and online options.  

 

 

[kingofthemountain]

Unfortunely the only change you can hope for in the short term rental scandal

is if the bigs and mediums hotels, together, finally heavily impacted by the fall of

the tourists numbers, ask for a law enforcement and they get it.

 

Otherwise hope is very weak to get a change from an isolated farang

(Or even some of them)

 

Good luck

Edited September 19, 2019 by kingofthemountain
grammar

[LuciusCornelius]

2 minutes ago, kingofthemountain said:

Unfortunely the only change you can hope for in the short term rental scandal

is if the big and mediums hotels, together, finaly heavy impacted by the fall of

the tourists numbers, ask for a law enforcement and they get it.

 

Otherwise hope is very weak to get a change from an isolated farang

(Or even some of them)

 

Good luck

Certainly, having the weight of that industry behind the drive to enforce the law on ST rentals would be a massive boon.

 

However, I am not so pessimistic in my outlook.  I think that if we can assemble a core group of Co-owners in the building that are willing to act against this then the attitude of the committee may change.  In addition, there is always the possibility that if enough reports are made to the authorities about a single place then finally they will respond to the issue.  At the end of the day, there is also the possibility of bringing a  civil suit against at least some of the people involved.  

 

I can but try.  I understand it's a mountain to climb. 

[bkk6060]

 

I moved from The Base it is the busiest hotel in town.

100ś of people everyday checking in all being assisted by security and management.

Moved to a super quiet place in north much much happier.

Good luck, but nothing is ever going to be done about it in Pattaya.

PS:  Sure glad I rented.

[kingofthemountain]

7 minutes ago, LuciusCornelius said:

Certainly, having the weight of that industry behind the drive to enforce the law on ST rentals would be a massive boon.

 

However, I am not so pessimistic in my outlook.  I think that if we can assemble a core group of Co-owners in the building that are willing to act against this then the attitude of the committee may change.  In addition, there is always the possibility that if enough reports are made to the authorities about a single place then finally they will respond to the issue.  At the end of the day, there is also the possibility of bringing a  civil suit against at least some of the people involved.  

 

I can but try.  I understand it's a mountain to climb. 

Yes, a huge moutain

one of the issue is most of the owners (Or at least as you stated the most organized or/and the most

influent) have 0 interest to stop this system, and the comittee goes always with the wind, they do not

want problems with the most organized/influents people, particulary if they are thai people.

 

[LuciusCornelius]

4 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

 

I moved from The Base it is the busiest hotel in town.

100ś of people everyday checking in all being assisted by security and management.

Moved to a super quiet place in north much much happier.

Good luck, but nothing is ever going to be done about it in Pattaya.

PS:  Sure glad I rented.

One positive so far is that sales values for the units have not been impacted by ST renting.  In fact, there may be a case to say that the practice has boosted property values in the complex.  I do not subscribe to that view myself, but some people have expressed it to me previously.  I do not live in Unixx myself.  I rent the units out.  My tenants are the ones that are not happy with the situation.  I feel I have to try my best to act in their interests. 

[kingofthemountain]

2 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

 

I moved from The Base it is the busiest hotel in town.

100ś of people everyday checking in all being assisted by security and management.

Moved to a super quiet place in north much much happier.

Good luck, but nothing is ever going to be done about it in Pattaya.

PS:  Sure glad I rented.

Yes the Base is one of the worst

if in the future the law is enforced, it could become a ghost building

like most of the big condominiums in Naklua\Pattaya\Pratamnak\Jomtiem and Na Jomtiem

i mean who in his right mind wants to live in a 20 m2 shoe box with thick walls like paper year round  for 10\15000 bths per month ?

[kingofthemountain]

3 minutes ago, LuciusCornelius said:

One positive so far is that sales values for the units have not been impacted by ST renting.  In fact, there may be a case to say that the practice has boosted property values in the complex.  I do not subscribe to that view myself, but some people have expressed it to me previously.  I do not live in Unixx myself.  I rent the units out.  My tenants are the ones that are not happy with the situation.  I feel I have to try my best to act in their interests. 

So it may be the right time to sale

sooner or later the housing bubble will explode

it's just a matter of time