Fury of Brexit 'inferno' lays bare a divided United Kingdom

[sandyf]

34 minutes ago, StreetCowboy said:

We elect members of parliament because we are too busy to understand the complexities of government.  One of their jobs is to protect us from our own stupidity.

Exactly, but in this case we are suffering from political stupidity.

Any decision on a complex issue with a potential outcome of an even split is guaranteed to create "division", the 2 previous national referendums were simple confirmations of the status quo. This was a great deal more complex and proceeded without any plan. The electorate gave the politicians a blank cheque and the amount that the cheque should have been for has caused division ever since.

Unfortunately the division is now so entrenched there is no going back, as highlighted by recent rhetoric. The Johnson speech was reminiscent of a recent European dictator. Those that are old enough will remember the actions of the militants in the 60s that created the "sick man of Europe", brought back to health by the EC/EU.

A large percentage of those that voted to leave have been convinced that there are entitled to get what they want so revoking Article 50 has probably become more dangerous than the damage from brexit. People should never forget that it was division that created the need for the GFA, something the brexiteers have chosen to ignore since day one.

If brexit solution results in real division with Ireland and Scotland moving away from England then that is something that future generations can thank their forefathers for.

[sandyf]

28 minutes ago, stephenterry said:

Far clearer to hold a GE, hopefully after 31 October, with all parties setting out their agenda - which for the LDs would be focused on revoking article 50, labour by offering a referendum (fence sitting again) and the tories promising the earth to all and sundry. 

 

The fact is, IMO, that the majority of the population couldn't give a toss about brexit because it doesn't materially affect them - yet. More important matters are those close to home.

 

However, it is likely with the UK's current voting system that the tories would win, but without a majority, in which case whatever has happened to brexit would be replaced by another few years of parliamentary chaos.

 

A situation to look forward to? 

 

Statement of the day.

 

“If the government was truly confident in the aftermath of their Brexit policy, they would wait for next spring; take credit for the success of Brexit, rejoice – even gloat – that all fears about it were unfounded and propose a few popular One Nation policies to restore the fortunes of the Conservatives. 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-brexit-no-deal-block-law-suspend-eu-leave-date-john-major-a9122091.html

[StreetCowboy]

Union of the Crowns has seen an unprecedented 200 years of peace between Scotland and England, bar the odd set of goal posts.

 

The European Community and subsequent union has seen more than seventy years since the last war between neighbours in Western Europe.

 

In an ideal world, our politicians would value that peace and not do anything to compromise it.

If anyone can show to me that either Brexit strengthens the union of the crowns, or takes us a step further away from the next war in Europe, I'll change my view and support it.

[yogi100]

48 minutes ago, DannyCarlton said:

The Lib Dems have 18 out of 650 MPs. Not a lot they can do either way.

How many will they have in the future. You dunno, I dunno, no one knows.

 

According to the opinion polls because of the current mess we're in they'll get a whole lot more than they have now and possibly enough to be able to form another coalition. This time with Corbyn's Labour Party who actually did a lot better than expected in the last GE.

 

Labour are pretty much on the fence. Corbyn would jump at the chance of a partnership with the Libs even if it meant adopting an anti Brexit stance which the Libs would without doubt insist up as a condition to their joining forces. Corbyn wouldn't be bothered if it meant he'd be living in Number Ten.

 

With politicians like them waiting to pounce if they get the chance what would be the point of a second referendum if they won't respect the outcome. Will we have to keep 'voting till we get it right'?

 

 

 

 

Edited September 27, 2019 by yogi100

[Basil B]

1 hour ago, yogi100 said:

 

I do believe the LibDems have said that if we do vote to leave again they still won't accept it.

 

It's not not cheap to have a referendum. The one in 2016 cost the tax payer 130 million quid.

Maybe one or two individuals have been quoted, but there again maybe just more fake news, but I do not think it is party policy.

Edited September 27, 2019 by Basil B

[Basil B]

1 hour ago, stephenterry said:

Far clearer to hold a GE, hopefully after 31 October, with all parties setting out their agenda - which for the LDs would be focused on revoking article 50, labour by offering a referendum (fence sitting again) and the tories promising the earth to all and sundry. 

There is no chance of holding a GE before or on the 31 as there has to be 25 working day from the day parliament is dissolved, (that would have been yesterday for Oct 31) 

[yogi100]

17 minutes ago, Basil B said:

Maybe one or two individuals have been quoted, but there again maybe just more fake news, but I do not think it is party policy.

A leading LibDem  MP said that any further vote to leave would also be rejected by her party. This was yesterday or the day before. 

 

She'll be more aware of what is LibDem party policy than you or I. They've been anti Brexit all along.

[JAG]

4 hours ago, SheungWan said:

No. Not if second referendum takes place before any election.

Sent from my SM-N935F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

What then, if after your second referendum a government is elected on a pledge to take the UK out of the EU?

 

Do we ignore the result of the referendum or ignore the mandate of the new government?

[JamesBlond]

1 hour ago, StreetCowboy said:

Union of the Crowns has seen an unprecedented 200 years of peace between Scotland and England, bar the odd set of goal posts.

 

The European Community and subsequent union has seen more than seventy years since the last war between neighbours in Western Europe.

 

In an ideal world, our politicians would value that peace and not do anything to compromise it.

If anyone can show to me that either Brexit strengthens the union of the crowns, or takes us a step further away from the next war in Europe, I'll change my view and support it.

Brexit will help undermine the EU's insane multinationalism ideology that is manifestly causing tension and conflict in many countries and will very likely be the root cause of the next war in Europe. QED.

[DannyCarlton]

51 minutes ago, yogi100 said:

A leading LibDem  MP said that any further vote to leave would also be rejected by her party. This was yesterday or the day before. 

 

She'll be more aware of what is LibDem party policy than you or I. They've been anti Brexit all along.

The Lib Dems have 18 out of 650 MPs . They hardly make a difference.

[DannyCarlton]

16 minutes ago, JAG said:

What then, if after your second referendum a government is elected on a pledge to take the UK out of the EU?

 

Do we ignore the result of the referendum or ignore the mandate of the new government?

We take the UK out of the EU or cancel Article 50, then have a GE.

[StreetCowboy]

2 minutes ago, JamesBlond said:

Brexit will help undermine the EU's insane multinationalism ideology that is manifestly causing tension and conflict in many countries and will very likely be the root cause of the next war in Europe. QED.

That's an interesting idea.  Can you identify any of the countries where it is causing conflict?

 

I don't know if you've ever used a rope, but like the ties that bind nations together in Europe, if there's no tension the rope is useless.  The ties between nations are similar.

[DannyCarlton]

1 hour ago, Basil B said:

There is no chance of holding a GE before or on the 31 as there has to be 25 working day from the day parliament is dissolved, (that would have been yesterday for Oct 31) 

The speaker announced yesterday that the earliest date possible for a GE is November 5th, for the reason you mentioned and other parliamentary conventions surrounding a GE.

[DannyCarlton]

1 hour ago, yogi100 said:

How many will they have in the future. You dunno, I dunno, no one knows.

 

According to the opinion polls because of the current mess we're in they'll get a whole lot more than they have now and possibly enough to be able to form another coalition. This time with Corbyn's Labour Party who actually did a lot better than expected in the last GE.

 

Labour are pretty much on the fence. Corbyn would jump at the chance of a partnership with the Libs even if it meant adopting an anti Brexit stance which the Libs would without doubt insist up as a condition to their joining forces. Corbyn wouldn't be bothered if it meant he'd be living in Number Ten.

 

With politicians like them waiting to pounce if they get the chance what would be the point of a second referendum if they won't respect the outcome. Will we have to keep 'voting till we get it right'?

 

 

 

 

You're right, no one knows. However, the confirmatory vote would be binding.

[RichardColeman]

3 hours ago, bannork said:

34.7% and nearly 13 million, a whopping 29%, didn't vote at all.

Wait for it, them 29% didn't understand the question about staying home or going out and now want to change their mind and not stay in !

[JonnyF]

I'm so glad the supreme court trashed the constitution to bring these muppets back.

 

So far we've had one day of insults and a second day hand wringing about how bad they were on the first day.

 

Time to drain the swamp. Time for Corbyn to grow a pair and have an election.

[JamesBlond]

17 minutes ago, StreetCowboy said:

That's an interesting idea.  Can you identify any of the countries where it is causing conflict?

 

I don't know if you've ever used a rope, but like the ties that bind nations together in Europe, if there's no tension the rope is useless.  The ties between nations are similar.

You haven't noticed all the conflict? You haven't noticed that the multicultural brainwashing agenda has being forced down our throats for decades now? - I guess some people have swallowed it whole and actually think it is a fine thing, though of course it is now taboo even to hint that there might be anything wrong with it.

National and traditional values and culture is under threat in many countries - the UK, Sweden, Holland, France... what do you think the yellow-shirt movement is really all about in France? So many immigrants that local culture has been diluted and they constitute a political force of their own that agitates for even more multiculturalism - anything that brings down the indigenous culture is fine by them because it makes them feel more secure. There is an active, concerted campaign going on by leftists (immigrants and bleeding-hearts) to destroy western culture. Ordinary people have had enough and Brexit is one symptom. The situation is already beyond repair, but the EU needs to be dismantled as a matter of priority before it gets any worse.

 

I don't understand your rope analogy in this context. Nations can be allied in all sorts of ways, but the attempt to homogenise the entire European population - for this is the covert agenda of multiculturalism - will be disastrous.

 

Edited September 27, 2019 by JamesBlond

[yogi100]

8 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

I'm so glad the supreme court trashed the constitution to bring these muppets back.

 

So far we've had one day of insults and a second day hand wringing about how bad they were on the first day.

 

Time to drain the swamp. Time for Corbyn to grow a pair and have an election.

They'd had time to sober up on the second day after getting drunk on our tax money!

[NanLaew]

18 minutes ago, StreetCowboy said:

Union of the Crowns has seen an unprecedented 200 years of peace between Scotland and England, bar the odd set of goal posts.

 

The European Community and subsequent union has seen more than seventy years since the last war between neighbours in Western Europe.

 

In an ideal world, our politicians would value that peace and not do anything to compromise it.

If anyone can show to me that either Brexit strengthens the union of the crowns, or takes us a step further away from the next war in Europe, I'll change my view and support it.

Regardless of international peace treaties and giving each small country and a flag and fast-track invite into the EU, considering the always simmering tensions in the Balkans, a place notable in the history of both World Wars, I would agree that there's only one Union with any sort of peaceful longevity and 'bar the odd set of goal posts', the British were already in it.

[yogi100]

11 minutes ago, JamesBlond said:

You haven't noticed all the conflict? You haven't noticed that the multicultural brainwashing agenda has being forced down our throats for decades now? - I guess some people have swallowed it whole and actually think it is a fine thing, though of course it is now taboo even to hint that there might be anything wrong with it.

National and traditional values and culture is under threat in many countries - the UK, Sweden, Holland, France... what do you think the yellow-shirt movement is really all about in France? So many immigrants that local culture has been diluted and they constitute a political force of their own that agitates for even more multiculturalism - anything that brings down the indigenous culture is fine by them because it makes them feel more secure. There is an active, concerted campaign going on by leftists (immigrants and bleeding-hearts) to destroy western culture. Ordinary people have had enough and Brexit is one symptom. The situation is already beyond repair, but the EU needs to be dismantled as a matter of priority before it gets any worse.

 

I don't understand your rope analogy in this context. Nations can be allied in all sorts of ways, but the attempt to homogenise the entire European population - for this is the covert agenda of multiculturalism - will be disastrous.

 

Good post. Bang on the nail.

[thaiguzzi]

18 hours ago, snoop1130 said:

Britain's Prime Minister Boris Johnson gestures as he speaks at the parliament,

 

18 hours ago, snoop1130 said:

The fury of the Brexit ‘inferno’ is so intense that it could tip the United Kingdom towards violence unless politicians tone down their rhetoric,

Oi !

Do you want some ?

C'mon then !

Not on my manor !

Lets be 'avin some !

Are you lookin' at me ?

Oi you !

[DannyCarlton]

13 minutes ago, JamesBlond said:

You haven't noticed all the conflict? You haven't noticed that the multicultural brainwashing agenda has being forced down our throats for decades now? - I guess some people have swallowed it whole and actually think it is a fine thing, though of course it is now taboo even to hint that there might be anything wrong with it.

National and traditional values and culture is under threat in many countries - the UK, Sweden, Holland, France... what do you think the yellow-shirt movement is really all about in France? So many immigrants that local culture has been diluted and they constitute a political force of their own that agitates for even more multiculturalism - anything that brings down the indigenous culture is fine by them because it makes them feel more secure. There is an active, concerted campaign going on by leftists (immigrants and bleeding-hearts) to destroy western culture. Ordinary people have had enough and Brexit is one symptom. The situation is already beyond repair, but the EU needs to be dismantled as a matter of priority before it gets any worse.

 

I don't understand your rope analogy in this context. Nations can be allied in all sorts of ways, but the attempt to homogenise the entire European population - for this is the covert agenda of multiculturalism - will be disastrous.

 

You're spending too much time listening to Nigel Farage and Tommy Robinson. Time to put that tifoil hat back on.

 

Never heard so mch claptrap in all my life!

[gamini]

I don't think it's just brexit. The fault lies with the electorial system of first past the post.  The country is presently ruled by the Conservative party who only got little over 30% of the vote. So we have a dictatorship of a minority elite. Pro-business, pro-rich with little regard for the average British working class man. Coalition governments are more fair even though somewhat unstable. 

[JamesBlond]

36 minutes ago, DannyCarlton said:

You're spending too much time listening to Nigel Farage and Tommy Robinson. Time to put that tifoil hat back on.

 

Never heard so mch claptrap in all my life!

Funnily enough, I've never heard anything that those two people have said. I do all my own thinking, thank you.

 

Seems you haven't noticed the creeping effects of multiculturalism. Have a look at the faculty of Queen Mary University business school in London (to take a random example): https://www.qmul.ac.uk/busman/staff/academic/ in which Brits are an endangered species - and what do you think the message will be that all those foreign academics are putting out in Britain?

 

For startling comparison, see the business school faculty at University College Dublin which is a touching reminder that there is such a thing as national identity: https://www.ucd.ie/quinn/facultyresearch/facultydirectory/ (seems that Ireland is still somewhat out of reach of the multicultural osmosis though you can see the beginnings of a creeping Euro-effect).

 

Up go the cries of 'xenophobia'. But I actually believe that a bit of diversity is a good thing - I advocate a sensible level of immigration for all countries. The problem is that they have way overdone it, because overdoing things is what humans do.

 

Edited September 27, 2019 by JamesBlond

[StreetCowboy]

26 minutes ago, DannyCarlton said:

You're spending too much time listening to Nigel Farage and Tommy Robinson. Time to put that tifoil hat back on.

 

Never heard so mch claptrap in all my life!

Just to be clear; the reason for Brexit is immigration by people from outside the EU who do not share our culture, right?

[JamesBlond]

2 minutes ago, StreetCowboy said:

Just to be clear; the reason for Brexit is immigration by people from outside the EU who do not share our culture, right?

The reason for Brexit is to preserve national identity in all its forms. Imposition of homogenous values by a faceless European bureaucracy and the agenda of multiculturalism is all part of the issue.

[overherebc]

40 minutes ago, JamesBlond said:

You haven't noticed all the conflict? You haven't noticed that the multicultural brainwashing agenda has being forced down our throats for decades now? - I guess some people have swallowed it whole and actually think it is a fine thing, though of course it is now taboo even to hint that there might be anything wrong with it.

National and traditional values and culture is under threat in many countries - the UK, Sweden, Holland, France... what do you think the yellow-shirt movement is really all about in France? So many immigrants that local culture has been diluted and they constitute a political force of their own that agitates for even more multiculturalism - anything that brings down the indigenous culture is fine by them because it makes them feel more secure. There is an active, concerted campaign going on by leftists (immigrants and bleeding-hearts) to destroy western culture. Ordinary people have had enough and Brexit is one symptom. The situation is already beyond repair, but the EU needs to be dismantled as a matter of priority before it gets any worse.

 

I don't understand your rope analogy in this context. Nations can be allied in all sorts of ways, but the attempt to homogenise the entire European population - for this is the covert agenda of multiculturalism - will be disastrous.

 

UK could have really stomped on Immigration without leaving the EU. 

I'm sure many who voted leave did so thinking it was only about Immigration. ( For me illegal immigrants should be put back on a ship and dumped back on the beach they came from ) 

Only a few were aware of the changes that would be part of the exit deal. Changes to import/export conditions, possible travel changes requiring visas for two weeks in Spain to drink voddie with Red Bull weren't thought about by the sheeple, Also the Irish border situation wasn't part of most sheeples thinking before they voted.

Perhaps changing the name from Great Britain to just Britain might be a good idea.

[sotsira]

11 hours ago, RickG16 said:

OK, and so Brexit will hinge on who is elected - we can expect the Tories to take us out, and Labour to have another referendum?

It's not so clear cut as that, many Tory & Labour voters

will also switch to the Lib Dems & the Brexit Party which 

will probably result in a hung Parliament.

 

Then a coalition will need to be established so it's anyones

guess how that will develop, by which time it'll end up being

after Xmas before any final resulting governmant will start

to function, in the meantime Brexit will continue to be kicked

down the road if it's allowed to by the EU.

[JAG]

1 hour ago, overherebc said:

UK could have really stomped on Immigration without leaving the EU. 

I'm sure many who voted leave did so thinking it was only about Immigration. ( For me illegal immigrants should be put back on a ship and dumped back on the beach they came from ) 

Only a few were aware of the changes that would be part of the exit deal. Changes to import/export conditions, possible travel changes requiring visas for two weeks in Spain to drink voddie with Red Bull weren't thought about by the sheeple, Also the Irish border situation wasn't part of most sheeples thinking before th noey voted.

Perhaps changing the name from Great Britain to just Britain might be a good idea.

Perhaps not referring to anyone who doesn't share your views (or perhaps your taste in alcoholic drinks) as "sheeple"may be a good idea? It is the theme behind so many posts on the subject of Brexit that it has become meaningless. If it has any effect, it will be to increase the divide even further.

 

If the Spanish insist on visa restrictions for holiday makers then their holiday industry will be the one to suffer, and complain! 

Edited September 27, 2019 by JAG

[DannyCarlton]

1 hour ago, StreetCowboy said:

Just to be clear; the reason for Brexit is immigration by people from outside the EU who do not share our culture, right?

That's what it is to the howling Brexiteers. What they fail to understand is that brexit will have zero effect on the numbers of those groups migrating to the UK. I've said this many times but they just fail to understand it. Not for me to comment on why they fail to comprehend this simple fact.