Indian Visitors/the caste system

[swissie]

Referring to the many visitors from India. I have noticed that they prefer to travel in groups.
As the "caste-system" seems to be well and alive in India, does that mean that Indian group-travellers must belong to the same caste when on Holiday in Thailand within their group? How do "Indian-Run Hotels/Restaurants" in Thailand handle the "cast-issue"?

Or is the caste-system "de-activated" when travelling outside of India?

I am not aware of any Indian posters here, that could easily answer this question, but I could imagine that there are possibly some Farangs here that have lived in India and could shed some light on this.

If I should receive no answers here, I will not hesitate to ask in one of the many Indian Restaurants in Pattaya on my next visit. I consider Indians as an easy-going crowd, confident that they will answer my question freely. Especially after I mention to them that my ancestors never colonised anyone or anything anywhere.
God this is good, coming close to black British Humor.

Amazingly, all countries seem to have a "cast-system" but only consisting of 2 castes:
The "haves" and the "not haves". Quite simple. The Indian caste-system is far more diversified, thus more interesting.

[baansgr]

The two caste system is definatley in play within the Indian restaurants throughout Thailand, consisting of the one caste that makes a good ruby and the other caste that can't.

[observer90210]

I would tend to consider that people in general, with no regard to their nationality, colour, ethnicity etc etc...would primarily be more inclined to evolve within their social status circles....and maybe the caste issue would be a secondary criteria...  the rich don't mix with the rags and same for the rags who cannot mix with the rich...

 

India has quite a few rich and mega rich,  who evolve in specific circles, where the average Cheap Charlie's do not have the means to look out for them and complain that they are sharing straws....????

 

 

Edited November 9, 2019 by observer90210

[DannyCarlton]

25 minutes ago, observer90210 said:

would primarily be more inclined to evolve within their social status circles....and maybe the caste issue would be a secondary criteria.

One and the same. Social groups are organised by caste. Officially banned in india but still widely practised. Based on yours, your father's and your ancestors occupation, so wealth does enter into it.

 

4 castes + untouchables (dunny cleaners). Probably won't find many from the upper castes in Thailand. Prefer Sigapore, New York, Paris, London. You won't find many from the lowest caste/untouchables. Couldn't afford to travel. Vast majority from the Vaisha caste, farmers, traders, merchants, etc.

 

Very similar to the caste system in the UK which has 5 castes, upper, upper middle, middle, working and lower. According to UN statistics, the UK is the most class concious society in the Western world.

 

Interestingly, it was the British Raj, that formalised and brought into law the caste system in India. Even the word "caste" was brought to India by European colonists, being the portugese word casta, race, lineage, breed.

 

Also worth remembering that many of the "Indians" you see here aren't Indians at all but are Moslem Pakistanis or Bangladeshis.

[NorthernRyland]

1 hour ago, swissie said:

As the "caste-system" seems to be well and alive in Indi

Just my opinion (having never been to India) I would say India is an extremely diverse country with questionable borders that are political more than cultural and comprising of multiple ethnicities. I think what we're calling the caste system is the perspective of one of the ethnic groups in relation to the other and probably the result of being forced to share the same political borders.

 

We don't call it a caste system in the United States but there is clearly a social order with whites (and now east Asians) on top and blacks on the bottom. Visit any city and you'll see the bad parts of town are mostly black and lowest paid jobs filled by mostly blacks or Latin Americans.

 

So my point, is it really correct to say India has a caste system or are we unfairly judging them by a standard that we wouldn't apply to other countries? As a thought experiment wouldn't the caste system go away magically if the borders were redrawn? 

 

My personal opinion is India probably won't last in its current form and break into smaller regions that better reflect the ethnic groups.

[ChipButty]

26 minutes ago, genericptr said:

Just my opinion (having never been to India) I would say India is an extremely diverse country with questionable borders that are political more than cultural and comprising of multiple ethnicities. I think what we're calling the caste system is the perspective of one of the ethnic groups in relation to the other and probably the result of being forced to share the same political borders.

 

We don't call it a caste system in the United States but there is clearly a social order with whites (and now east Asians) on top and blacks on the bottom. Visit any city and you'll see the bad parts of town are mostly black and lowest paid jobs filled by mostly blacks or Latin Americans.

 

So my point, is it really correct to say India has a caste system or are we unfairly judging them by a standard that we wouldn't apply to other countries? As a thought experiment wouldn't the caste system go away magically if the borders were redrawn? 

 

My personal opinion is India probably won't last in its current form and break into smaller regions that better reflect the ethnic groups.

Thats what India used to be all the different states were independent the last to join The Republic of India was Goa

[DannyCarlton]

39 minutes ago, genericptr said:

I think what we're calling the caste system is the perspective of one of the ethnic groups in relation to the other and probably the result of being forced to share the same political borders.

 

Not in any way shape or form. It's based on the Hindu religion. 80% of Indians are Hindus and spread throughout India. 14% of Indians are Moslem and there are border disputes based on religeon/ethnicity but not the caste system.

 

Interestingly, Islam was brought to India by the Moguls, who conquered India and ruled it for absolutely yonks, leaving Moslems being regarded, generally, as amongst the upper classes.

 

 

Edited November 10, 2019 by DannyCarlton

[NorthernRyland]

6 minutes ago, DannyCarlton said:

Not in any way shape or form. It's based on the Hindu religion. 80% of Indians are Hindus and spread throughout India. 14% of Indians are Moslem and there are border disputes based on religeon/ethnicity but not the caste system.

 

There's at least 2 different groups in the country which are visibly very different and as I understood it those were at least 2 of the castes. Are there any Brahmins that have jet black skin for example?

[ChipButty]

11 minutes ago, DannyCarlton said:

Not in any way shape or form. It's based on the Hindu religion. 80% of Indians are Hindus and spread throughout India. 14% of Indians are Moslem and there are border disputes based on religeon/ethnicity but not the caste system.

 

Interestingly, Islam was brought to India by the Moguls, who conquered India and ruled it for absolutely yonks, leaving Moslems being regarded, generally, as amongst the upper classes.

 

 

Hence the Taj Mahal was built

[NorthernRyland]

Come to think of it isn't Thailand similar? Just watching the news and politics I would say the upper class is lighter skin and more Chinese in appearance than the average Thai I see in the north and especially in the North East.

 

Politics in the US is breaking down along ethnic lines also with the Republicans becoming the de-facto white people after the Democrats decided in 2010 to abandon the white working class as their primary constitute.

 

Looking at the patterns I have to assume India is the same.

[DannyCarlton]

1 minute ago, genericptr said:

Come to think of it isn't Thailand similar? Just watching the news and politics I would say the upper class is lighter skin and more Chinese in appearance than the average Thai I see in the north and especially in the North East.

 

Politics in the US is breaking down along ethnic lines also with the Republicans becoming the de-facto white people after the Democrats decided in 2010 to abandon the white working class as their primary constitute.

 

Looking at the patterns I have to assume India is the same.

It's true that in India dark skin is looked down upon, just the same as Thailand. In Thailand, it's associated with people who work in the fields, lower class, baan noak. Not sure about why it's looked down upon in India, possibly the same.

 

Why is it looked down upon in Western countries, such as the US? Just racism, pure and simple. Absolutely disgusting. Trust me, we're all the same under the skin.

[ChipButty]

About 195,000 Indian Thais have full Thai citizenship, mainly in the cities could be more

A Tamil community has been around since the 1860s. Most of the Indians arrived in the last century, notably from Tamil Nadu. Tamil Nadu is an ancient state in India, a lot of Tamil people came during the Chola period. Some others came from Punjab, Rajasthan and some from Gujarat. Buddhism and Hinduism originally arrived in Thailand from India and spread over the years.

[LomSak27]

49 minutes ago, genericptr said:

We don't call it a caste system in the United States but there is clearly a social order with whites (and now east Asians) on top and blacks on the bottom. Visit any city and you'll see the bad parts of town are mostly black and lowest paid jobs filled by mostly blacks or Latin Americans.

 

A Caste system is not a class system. But good deflection.  

 

 

 

 

[DannyCarlton]

3 minutes ago, ChipButty said:

Buddhism and Hinduism originally arrived in Thailand from India and spread over the years.

More so Buddhism than Hinduism. Fortunately it didn't completely supplant the original religeon of Thailand, Animism. The oldest religion in the world and global. Very similar to Shamanism in the US. If I were to adopt a religion, it would certainly be that, similar to Druidism in the UK, worship of palnts and animals and all that is nature + our ancestors.

 

My wife pays as much, if not more, tribute to Jao Thi as she does Buddah.

[DannyCarlton]

1 minute ago, LomSak27 said:

 

A Caste system is not a class system. But good deflection.  

It's exactly what it is. Nice try but no cigar.

[mercman24]

got it here in Thailand, skin whitener is a billion baht business, if one is light skinned they are considered, middle class, if one is dark skinned they are thought of as a lower class, as in their stupid little minds, (for example) a dark skinned female is thought of as one who works in the fields, pretty sad realy, next time you go into a decent hotel the receptionist will have a white pasty face, like she has daubed flour on it, , dark skin for me any day of the week

[Tayaout]

15 minutes ago, mercman24 said:

got it here in Thailand, skin whitener is a billion baht business, if one is light skinned they are considered, middle class, if one is dark skinned they are thought of as a lower class, as in their stupid little minds, (for example) a dark skinned female is thought of as one who works in the fields, pretty sad realy, next time you go into a decent hotel the receptionist will have a white pasty face, like she has daubed flour on it, , dark skin for me any day of the week

In the west it's the same but for darker skin. Girl and some men will pay for tanning studio, tanning cream, suntan spray,  progressively lower protection suncream, and of course the winter trip to an all inclusive resort in the south. If you can afford a trip every winter then you are probably middle class or higher. 

 

My guess is that white men who like darker skinned women do it because it promotes genetic diversity. 

Edited November 10, 2019 by Tayaout

[NorthernRyland]

53 minutes ago, DannyCarlton said:

Why is it looked down upon in Western countries, such as the US? Just racism, pure and simple. Absolutely disgusting. Trust me, we're all the same under the skin.

I disagree we're all the same under the skin. I'm in South Carolina now and got to be around a sizable black population for the first time in my life (I'm from Colorado and moved to Thailand in my early 20's so not many blacks to be found).

 

These people simply don't have much in common and they don't get along very well from the couple people that were wiling to say so. Basically everyone just keeps to their own parts of towns and only interact in stores where the blacks are about 95% of all service workers.

 

It's also hard to not notice the black areas of town are in bad shape and whites with any options simply avoid these areas and so you get segregation. No one who is alive to today can be blamed for this but I don't think the whites here are racist just because they want to live around white people that share more in common with them.

[NorthernRyland]

48 minutes ago, mercman24 said:

got it here in Thailand, skin whitener is a billion baht business, if one is light skinned they are considered, middle class, if one is dark skinned they are thought of as a lower class, as in their stupid little minds, (for example) a dark skinned female is thought of as one who works in the fields, pretty sad realy, next time you go into a decent hotel the receptionist will have a white pasty face, like she has daubed flour on it, , dark skin for me any day of the week

It doesn't make much sense to me in Thailand because everywhere here is pretty much the same and there isn't a good part of town for the light skinned Thais and bad part of town for the darker skinned once. That's one of the best things about Thailand, that it's not diverse. Compare that with the US where every city is ghettoized into small ethnic enclaves.

[metisdead]

A post in violation of fair use policy has been removed.

 

An offensive post has been removed. 

[Sanjay Jaybhay]

Today Indians travelling abroad have only 2 castes, first is rich and middle class and the 2nd is vegetarians and meat eaters. They travel accordingly as per their afordability and eating habits. 

 

Having said that, the caste system in India comes from what jobs Indians use to do in ancient times. Need to understand the type of government and economy in ancient India. Ancient India always had a king as in any part of the world and was not democratic. The economy that time was basic like in any other country. So the jobs available for people were like being a priest, teacher, farmer, soldier , doctor or low level jobs like cleaners. The surnames of these people came from the kind of job they did. For example in the west if your surname is Smith then maybe your ancestors were blacksmiths. In the same way all people doing certain type of jobs carried a surname which defined what jobs they do or their ancestors use to do. Not being a democracy people who did certain jobs were not allowed to do other jobs. For example son of a teacher was not allowed to be a soldier and was supposed to continue his family tradition of being a teacher. Hence each of these groups who did different jobs got divided into different segments which became the caste system. Some people in modern India still carry these surnames and can get differentiated and discriminated because of their surname. But today India is a democracy and everybody is free to do any job. Also the economy is different today. So someone whose ancestors were cleaners today has a good education and has become a software engineer in the silicon valley in San Fransisco will still be carrying this surname which can be a reason for discrimination amongst Indians. But this guy is no longer a cleaner, he earns Usd 200000 a year which is maybe higher than what Americans can earn. So his job now does not fit his caste and hence the colapse of the caste system which is coming soon.

Edited November 10, 2019 by Sanjay Jaybhay

[Sanjay Jaybhay]

8 hours ago, baansgr said:

The two caste system is definatley in play within the Indian restaurants throughout Thailand, consisting of the one caste that makes a good ruby and the other caste that can't.

Today Indians travelling abroad have only 2 castes, first is rich and middle class and the 2nd is vegetarians and meat eaters. They travel accordingly as per their afordability and eating habits. 

 

Having said that, the caste system in India comes from what jobs Indians use to do in ancient times. Need to understand the type of government and economy in ancient India. Ancient India always had a king as in any part of the world and was not democratic. The economy that time was basic like in any other country. So the jobs available for people were like being a priest, teacher, farmer, soldier , doctor or low level jobs like cleaners. The surnames of these people came from the kind of job they did. For example in the west if your surname is Smith then maybe your ancestors were blacksmiths. In the same way all people doing certain type of jobs carried a surname which defined what jobs they do or their ancestors use to do. Not being a democracy people who did certain jobs were not allowed to do other jobs. For example son of a teacher was not allowed to be a soldier and was supposed to continue his family tradition of being a teacher. Hence each of these groups who did different jobs got divided into different segments which became the caste system. Some people in modern India still carry these surnames and can get differentiated and discriminated because of their surname. But today India is a democracy and everybody is free to do any job. Also the economy is different today. So someone whose ancestors were cleaners today has a good education and has become a software engineer in the silicon valley in San Fransisco will still be carrying this surname which can be a reason for discrimination amongst Indians. But this guy is no longer a cleaner, he earns Usd 200000 a year which is maybe higher than what Americans can earn. So his job now does not fit his caste and hence the colapse of the caste system which is coming soon

[Kwasaki]

15 hours ago, swissie said:

If I should receive no answers here, I will not hesitate to ask in one of the many Indian Restaurants in Pattaya on my next visit.

[observer90210]

16 hours ago, DannyCarlton said:

One and the same. Social groups are organised by caste. Officially banned in india but still widely practised. Based on yours, your father's and your ancestors occupation, so wealth does enter into it.

 

4 castes + untouchables (dunny cleaners). Probably won't find many from the upper castes in Thailand. Prefer Sigapore, New York, Paris, London. You won't find many from the lowest caste/untouchables. Couldn't afford to travel. Vast majority from the Vaisha caste, farmers, traders, merchants, etc.

 

Very similar to the caste system in the UK which has 5 castes, upper, upper middle, middle, working and lower. According to UN statistics, the UK is the most class concious society in the Western world.

 

Interestingly, it was the British Raj, that formalised and brought into law the caste system in India. Even the word "caste" was brought to India by European colonists, being the portugese word casta, race, lineage, breed.

 

Also worth remembering that many of the "Indians" you see here aren't Indians at all but are Moslem Pakistanis or Bangladeshis.

An interesting résumé but do not forget that the caste system goes back to the year 1000 when the hindu kings banished their darker fellow citizens who fled to Europe and form today the Roma or what you may better understand by the word gypsies. So I guess the Raj was not fully at fault on this one.

 

To keep thing short and simple, I still belive that in many nations and cultures, the rich don't mix with the poor. Caste does not have much to do in this day, as money buys status, regardless of education or social family status background. They are called the "nouveau riches" sometimes.

 

Edited November 10, 2019 by observer90210

[richard_smith237]

Don’t we have a subtle caste system in the West? Wot can tell how elite someone is by the way in wot they dress, their behaviour, their language and the gramma wot they use? 

And if that fails we have can move to Thailand a have special visa that tells us! 

 

I agree with Beverly Hills 90210 above... money buys status. Class is something else, but you don’t have to be born with it. 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 10, 2019 by richard_smith237

[swissie]

On 11/10/2019 at 7:51 AM, Sanjay Jaybhay said:

Today Indians travelling abroad have only 2 castes, first is rich and middle class and the 2nd is vegetarians and meat eaters. They travel accordingly as per their afordability and eating habits. 

 

Having said that, the caste system in India comes from what jobs Indians use to do in ancient times. Need to understand the type of government and economy in ancient India. Ancient India always had a king as in any part of the world and was not democratic. The economy that time was basic like in any other country. So the jobs available for people were like being a priest, teacher, farmer, soldier , doctor or low level jobs like cleaners. The surnames of these people came from the kind of job they did. For example in the west if your surname is Smith then maybe your ancestors were blacksmiths. In the same way all people doing certain type of jobs carried a surname which defined what jobs they do or their ancestors use to do. Not being a democracy people who did certain jobs were not allowed to do other jobs. For example son of a teacher was not allowed to be a soldier and was supposed to continue his family tradition of being a teacher. Hence each of these groups who did different jobs got divided into different segments which became the caste system. Some people in modern India still carry these surnames and can get differentiated and discriminated because of their surname. But today India is a democracy and everybody is free to do any job. Also the economy is different today. So someone whose ancestors were cleaners today has a good education and has become a software engineer in the silicon valley in San Fransisco will still be carrying this surname which can be a reason for discrimination amongst Indians. But this guy is no longer a cleaner, he earns Usd 200000 a year which is maybe higher than what Americans can earn. So his job now does not fit his caste and hence the colapse of the caste system which is coming soon.

Well, we seem to have at least one Indian Poster on TVF. Thanks for responding. Your description of the caste-system is in accordance to what I have learned about it.

I would still be be interested in:
Do those individual groups that travel to Thailand consist of persons belonging to different castes (within the same group) or do those groups consist of only one particular caste?
And:
How about Indian owned Hotels/Restaurants in Thailand? Does the caste-system play any role in those places?

 

Your comment: "Today Indians travelling abroad have only 2 castes, first is rich and middle class and the 2nd is vegetarians and meat eaters. They travel accordingly as per their afordability and eating habits" would indicate that the traditional caste-system is mostly "de-activated" when travelling outside of India. Correct?

[Sanjay Jaybhay]

3 hours ago, swissie said:

Well, we seem to have at least one Indian Poster on TVF. Thanks for responding. Your description of the caste-system is in accordance to what I have learned about it.

I would still be be interested in:
Do those individual groups that travel to Thailand consist of persons belonging to different castes (within the same group) or do those groups consist of only one particular caste?
And:
How about Indian owned Hotels/Restaurants in Thailand? Does the caste-system play any role in those places?

 

Your comment: "Today Indians travelling abroad have only 2 castes, first is rich and middle class and the 2nd is vegetarians and meat eaters. They travel accordingly as per their afordability and eating habits" would indicate that the traditional caste-system is mostly "de-activated" when travelling outside of India. Correct?

Indians travel with friends and family as everybody else. Nobody wants to travel with unknown people even if they belong to the same caste. Why would anybody travel with strangers ? What I meant to say is that rich people travel together with their rich friends as they can afford the same lifestyle. About vegetarians travelling together,  thats possible if they are travelling with a tour company as part of a tour package. In this case the tour operator might arrange for vegetarains to travel together as its easier for them to provide the same food. So nothing to do with the caste system. People travel with friends , whatever caste they may be. Indians dont make friendship with other Indians based on their caste. You meet people and you make friends and never care to ask about their caste,same as anywhere in the world. Caste is asked only at the time of marriage, not when you are making friends in school or work place or parties. Many of my close friends, I dont know what caste they belong to and they dont know what caste I belong to,but we travel together as friends.  But there is another dimention to it which you see in the Indian restaurants. India has many states and each state speaks a different language and has a different culture. Even their food is different. Its comparable to the European Union. Each country has a different language and different food. So the many Indians restaurants you see are from different states of India and thats the difference between them. Its not a difference in caste but its a difference in the state. The food can differ a lot depends on the state. But mostly the main dividing factor is North Indian food and South Indian food. Another dividing factory is vegetarian and non vegetarian food. States of Gujrat and Rajasthan are mostly vegetarian states. People living in these 2 states of India are mostly vegetarian. So when groups of people travel together from these 2 states they look for vegetarian food. Another distinction amongst the people you can make is from the colour of their skin. North Indians are lighter and some can be quite white also. South Indians are dark and some can be as dark as Africans. There are 2 races there. The north Indians are supposed to be Aryans and the south Indian Dravidians. All these distictions are besides the caste of each group. To answer your question there is no caste system while travelling.  People just travel with their friends as anybody else. 

[gk10002000]

On 11/9/2019 at 4:54 PM, genericptr said:

Come to think of it isn't Thailand similar? Just watching the news and politics I would say the upper class is lighter skin and more Chinese in appearance than the average Thai I see in the north and especially in the North East.

 

Politics in the US is breaking down along ethnic lines also with the Republicans becoming the de-facto white people after the Democrats decided in 2010 to abandon the white working class as their primary constitute.

 

Looking at the patterns I have to assume India is the same.

well the Thais sure seem to be going the white route.