Diary of a farang in Isaan

[chickenslegs]

2 hours ago, owl sees all said:

Take a look at vanilla CL. Ideal for a rai of land.

I'll do that Owl, thanks.

 

A quick Google tells me that there is only one species of bee that can pollinate vanilla orchids, otherwise it has to be done by hand. The Melipona bee is only found in Mexico.

 

More research needed, but I think I have at least 6 years before the move up country. Daughter is 12 and we need to get her off to university first.

 

[owl sees all]

9 hours ago, chickenslegs said:

I'll do that Owl, thanks.

 

A quick Google tells me that there is only one species of bee that can pollinate vanilla orchids, otherwise it has to be done by hand. The Melipona bee is only found in Mexico.

 

More research needed, but I think I have at least 6 years before the move up country. Daughter is 12 and we need to get her off to university first.

 

Indeed!

 

The hand pollination is a very skilled job. But the returns are fantastic.

[rickudon]

How to keep busy .... I have 2 fish ponds for angling, and the banks require a bit of maintenance. Tried to get Thais to do it ( hired by wife) but usually end up with more work due to their mistakes (incompetence?). For example, one man with his bush cutter cut all the grass - and 2 date palms and a couple of other shrubs. Wasn't as if they were tiny - about 60 cms tall and 5 cm thick. 3 years of nurture down the drain. When ploughing the rice field. end up with marginal bananas and small trees bulldozed, and piles of soil and grass a metre high and all over the ponds nice flat bank. So I have to do it myself if possible. Also grow veggies and limes. I am finding that since getting to 70 i get tired faster, so 2 hours a day of gardening/farm maintenance is enough.

 

When not outside, i spend an hour or 2 on computer games (for the brain), researching stuff about Victorian ships on the internet or browsing news (including Aseannow). Once a week play Bridge (although we are nearly out of Bridge players), and for when i want to completely relax, have Netflix. Also may start a climate blog, but never enough time!

 

Apart from the Bridge, not much socialising as not into drinking and most expats i know either stay mainly at home (because older) or they just drink....

[owl sees all]

7 hours ago, rickudon said:

How to keep busy .... I have 2 fish ponds for angling, and the banks require a bit of maintenance. Tried to get Thais to do it ( hired by wife) but usually end up with more work due to their mistakes (incompetence?). For example, one man with his bush cutter cut all the grass - and 2 date palms and a couple of other shrubs. Wasn't as if they were tiny - about 60 cms tall and 5 cm thick. 3 years of nurture down the drain. When ploughing the rice field. end up with marginal bananas and small trees bulldozed, and piles of soil and grass a metre high and all over the ponds nice flat bank. So I have to do it myself if possible. Also grow veggies and limes. I am finding that since getting to 70 i get tired faster, so 2 hours a day of gardening/farm maintenance is enough.

 

When not outside, i spend an hour or 2 on computer games (for the brain), researching stuff about Victorian ships on the internet or browsing news (including Aseannow). Once a week play Bridge (although we are nearly out of Bridge players), and for when i want to completely relax, have Netflix. Also may start a climate blog, but never enough time!

 

Apart from the Bridge, not much socialising as not into drinking and most expats i know either stay mainly at home (because older) or they just drink....

That magic age; 70.

 

Up to then i was quite happy to do a few hours work on the farm, then almost overnight I stopped being able to. Now I'm down to short bursts of graft. Have to be careful too. Hurt my hip in a fall about 6 months ago, and cracked my thumb in another tumble two weeks back.

 

The only time I see a farang is when I go to town. And just like yourself Rick, I'm not into the drinking scene.

 

Happy new year mate.

 

 

 

[HighPriority]

It’s great to see you two old codgers still at, keep up the inspiration 👍🏼

😎

🤣🤣

[finnomick1]

Well, it would seem like ' hello ' from one old codger.....but I don't want to be rude on my first post. I've a question about ponds. We only have two now, had seven, but we don't grow fish for resale, just family consumption. I used to get an amazing wealth of info from a member known as ' ubonjoe ' but when I serched him this morning there was an ' RIP ' against his name. A great loss if it is true. He told me several years ago that after harvesting the fish and before filling and re-stocking his ponds, he treated them with either a chemical or a fertiliser that got rid of all unwanted matter. My problem is long grass that grows from the bottom of the pond. Very long grass, 2 to 3 meters and I would dearly love to find a way of getting rid of it. If anyone has any information, I'd be pleased to hear from you. That's both about the ponds and ubonjoe. Happy New Yaer one and all.

[HighPriority]

2 hours ago, finnomick1 said:

Well, it would seem like ' hello ' from one old codger.....but I don't want to be rude on my first post. I've a question about ponds. We only have two now, had seven, but we don't grow fish for resale, just family consumption. I used to get an amazing wealth of info from a member known as ' ubonjoe ' but when I serched him this morning there was an ' RIP ' against his name. A great loss if it is true. He told me several years ago that after harvesting the fish and before filling and re-stocking his ponds, he treated them with either a chemical or a fertiliser that got rid of all unwanted matter. My problem is long grass that grows from the bottom of the pond. Very long grass, 2 to 3 meters and I would dearly love to find a way of getting rid of it. If anyone has any information, I'd be pleased to hear from you. That's both about the ponds and ubonjoe. Happy New Yaer one and all.

Gday Mick, sadly you read correctly about ubonjoe.

As to your weed infestation in your ponds I know very little.

Im sure there plenty of things that will kill the weeds but not harming your fish/land today or in the future is the problem as I see it.

Mr Owl and his friends may know more or have you tried the farming in Thailand thread yet ?

 

[owl sees all]

Owl Log - 07-01-2024 - Sunday evening

 

Very late getting started today. Mildred had an intensive English camp for both Saturday and today (Sunday). Took her twice and brought her home too. Don't mind at all, but makes any usual schedules mixed up.

 

But! Got a result on the way back from Bandung this morning. Found a new fishing place. only just 50 metres off the 2022.

 

Sun too strong. Says new Fishing Park.

 

 

A couple of big dogs keep poachers and unwanted drunks out.

 

 

After picking up Mildred from school, we went there to get the info. Not open til next month. Everything supplied. 350 baht a person a rod. Man said there were lots of pla nin in there. Take away what you catch.

 

Unloved and neglected!! No! Not me.

 

 

The best Europe had to offer a while back.

 

 

In contrast; although right in the middle of unused land, this golden fish is well cared for.

 

 

Also in Bandung, a couple of statues of the guy that discovered the place. While I was waiting for Mildred this afternoon I was going on a walk-about.

 

 

And for the history nerds.

 

 

A very big construction going on.

 

 

Mrs Owl has heard that it's gonna be Bandung's new Fruit and Veg Market.

 

 

A nice parade in the village last week.

 

 

Got a little vid of a lovely bit of fluff shaking her bits.

 

 

Last day of the trampolines on Monday.

 

 

Also in Bandung; a big Blues' fan.

 

 

Toddled along to the Number Four Market on Thursday. Unfortunately the fish guy couldn't get any pinkies for us. Bought 8 kois for 100 baht though.

 

Mrs Owl was after a big mozzie net for her mum.

 

 

It's not just ladies' health on offer. The men can get a bit too. I was very tempted. But the lady saw me and had it on her toes. Obviously didn't need the excitement.

 

 

Big spice stall.

 

 

Met up with an old friend.

 

 

Found the biggest hand saw ever.

 

 

Over a metre long I reckon. Wish I'd bought it now.

 

 

It's a strange world. I parked in precisely the same place as last time a month ago. Outside the Christian Church. Can I read anything into it?

 

 

Now I'm thinking the big building next door has nothing to do with the church. We will see in the coming months.

 

 

We had time to spare on Thursday, so it was off to the restaurant for some pow-pow. While we were in there there was almighty crashing going on outside.

 

 

Went outside to investigate. A couple of guys were demolishing the market stands. And they were not bothered who they disturbed.

 

 

So we picked Mildred up and hot-footed it to the farm. The carp had been in the bag since about mid-day. Unfortunately three didn't make it. Mildred wanted to keep them safe for a while. To keep an eye on them. So she put them in a water tank.

 

 

Still alive and swimming yesterday.

 

 

Found a fantastic sprinkler system. Well away from any mains leccy. They either have a water tower hidden away somewhere, or a very powerful pump. I'll get back there this week, and take a bit of detail in.

 

 

My own farm-work has stalled. Soo, my helper/grafter, has done the off to Bangkok with his wife. But not only that. After Lazada called, and told me to cancel the first order, I found another place and ordered again. Got an email on Friday morning (but only picked it up yesterday evening) to say they were out of stock. Spent 2 hours this morning trying to get another. What I want is a 750 watt, 3inch DC unit. One and a half inch outlet. Must be able to pump a litre a second at 32 metres depth. fingers crossed this time.

 

FA Cup w/e. Not enthused about the cup. Both the Owls and Blades won 4-0, as did Chelsea. Japan thrashed Thailand in the week 5-0. An unusual one; China lost to Hong Kong 1-2. Bit like England playing the City of London. Aveley (Essex Village) have good away win to keep them in tough of the leaders in the National League South.

 

Funny old weather. 15C at six in the morning and 30C at three in the afternoon. Still no rain. Last rain was two days before Mildred's birthday on the 19th October. so nearly 3 months ago.

 

Sugar is poor this season. I knew it world be, as it was so dry for the first couple of months after planting last year.

 

Cheese has been all gobbled up. Not just by me. Mildred has discovered that if a lump is dipped in honey; it tastes delicious. Must order some in the morning.

 

My DeWALT DC air pump arrived. Still experimenting with it.

 

On the way to Ban Dung on Saturday morning there was a dead cat in the middle of the 2022. Still there when I was returning.. Was a bit of a mess. Pulled it to the side of the road. Gave it some dignity in death.

 

What is the capital of Mongolia? One of Mildred's Geography - or was it history -  questions last week at school. I only knew it had lots of 'a's in it. Mongolia!! Thai education?!  In the English spelling test; 'dinosaur'. Which she actually got right. I remember in an English test, we kids were asked to spell Mississippi. What! At nine years old. Didn't even know what it meant. A couple of the lads did though. Must have been watching cowboy and indian films.

 

Only one thing left to say; bye y'all.

 

 

[HighPriority]

We were getting worried about you Owl, unseasonably late you are !

[chickenslegs]

18 minutes ago, owl sees all said:

I remember in an English test, we kids were asked to spell Mississippi.

I remember the school yard riddle - "Mississippi is a very long river, if you can't spell it you're a dunce"

Of course most kids would answer wrongly - "M, i, double s, i, double s, i, double p, i"

The correct answer is "I.T."

 

Great photos and narrative, as always. Thanks Owl

[owl sees all]

4 minutes ago, chickenslegs said:

I remember the school yard riddle - "Mississippi is a very long river, if you can't spell it you're a dunce"

Of course most kids would answer wrongly - "M, i, double s, i, double s, i, double p, i"

The correct answer is "I.T."

 

Great photos and narrative, as always. Thanks Owl

Thai's very interesting about the river. Now I've go it forever. There was another one. What was it now? Missouri. None knew about it til Mr Eastwood mentioned it in one of his films.

[owl sees all]

9 minutes ago, HighPriority said:

We were getting worried about you Owl, unseasonably late you are !

 

Thrown out of kilter by events and travelling back and forth to Bandung. But some of it was down to sheer laziness in the week. I should process the pics on the computer as I get them. If I leave 150 pics to be sorted, and trimmed, on Sunday, it;s too much time needed. Although only use 30/40. I'll sort myself out for the coming week.

[owl sees all]

19 hours ago, finnomick1 said:

Well, it would seem like ' hello ' from one old codger.....but I don't want to be rude on my first post. I've a question about ponds. We only have two now, had seven, but we don't grow fish for resale, just family consumption. I used to get an amazing wealth of info from a member known as ' ubonjoe ' but when I serched him this morning there was an ' RIP ' against his name. A great loss if it is true. He told me several years ago that after harvesting the fish and before filling and re-stocking his ponds, he treated them with either a chemical or a fertiliser that got rid of all unwanted matter. My problem is long grass that grows from the bottom of the pond. Very long grass, 2 to 3 meters and I would dearly love to find a way of getting rid of it. If anyone has any information, I'd be pleased to hear from you. That's both about the ponds and ubonjoe. Happy New Yaer one and all.

 

Good to see your post Mick.

 

Must always turn to nature for answers. When you harvest the fish completely, is there still water? If it is dry, then one could lime the bottom. If there is a half metre or so, then EM would do the trick. It's not cheap, but you can 'breed' your own. Details in previous posts.

 

However! If there are no outside influences, such as a discharge, or seepage, into the pond, then I'd be inclined to leave it to nature to sort out. As for the grass. Take is as a bonus to the pond eco-system.

 

Get some pics posted Mick. Interesting topic.

[finnomick1]

Thank you for the replies. Firstly, RIP Ubonjoe. We never met but had many online conversations. Your wealth of knowledge will be missed along with your enthusiasm to share it.

We had more water this year than in the last 18 years. We had to sandbag the ponds after putting blue netting around. Last year we were too late and slow to do anything and lost a lot of koi into the old man's rice field next door which is bordered by a seasonal river. Luckily this year there were no losses but to see a huge lake was a bit of a shock. I think we'll pump the smaller pond after removing the wild fish and let it dry out. Hopefully then we can deal with the grass. The wife wants to fill it in but that's not happening.

[owl sees all]

36 minutes ago, finnomick1 said:

Thank you for the replies. Firstly, RIP Ubonjoe. We never met but had many online conversations. Your wealth of knowledge will be missed along with your enthusiasm to share it.

We had more water this year than in the last 18 years. We had to sandbag the ponds after putting blue netting around. Last year we were too late and slow to do anything and lost a lot of koi into the old man's rice field next door which is bordered by a seasonal river. Luckily this year there were no losses but to see a huge lake was a bit of a shock. I think we'll pump the smaller pond after removing the wild fish and let it dry out. Hopefully then we can deal with the grass. The wife wants to fill it in but that's not happening.

 

Good you have water. Next year could revert back to the normality of the last few years.

 

Not a good idea to leave small pla nin in a pond. they will lower the average size and eventually they will all become stunted.

 

I have an automatic fish feeder that might interest you Mick. Once you have the plan, you can make as many as you want for next to nothing. All you have to do is put old rotting fruit into them every now and again.

 

Get some pics posted.

[rickudon]

Happy new Year , Owl. Yeah, for me 69 was the turning point, up to then only some physical injuries which did leave some issues with grip, shoulders and back. Then reminded about mortality by my kidney disease issue, but have quite a few years yet before dialysis. I have lost about 5 kilos in the last 2 years, target is another 2 kilos. Grass cutting and pond repairs now nearly finished, which just leaves me with the rice field .... but not a priority as it doesn't affect the fishing! Have erected a shelter for fishing (just some shade cloth) to keep the worst of the sun off.

 

Finnomick, not absolutely sure what the answer to your grass problem is, every pond is different. My ponds suffered from the long grass  until i had them dug out about 5 years ago. Before that, they were shallow, and a lot of black silty mud which the long grass tended to prefer. Also a lot of other plants. After digging, did get a lot of plant growth the first year (all those nutrients stirred up), but the last 2 years has seen practically no plant growth except for a few water lilies and rushes. That grass seems to like the black mud, and doesn't grow well in bare clay. Liming will get rid of fish parasites (not that i have ever had a problem) and unwanted fish, but is unlikely to help with the grass (although the Ph change may). I actually would like a few more plants now!

[owl sees all]

Sorry everyone. Owl Log is late again.

 

Will post this afternoon, or tomorrow morning. Not to be missed though. Some absolutely riveting content; Earth shattering even. A tsunami of action. A infinitival of mysticism. And a pic of such wondrous beauty, that even now, I'm in two minds whether to expose it to the AN community.

 

So! Watch this space.

 

 

 

 

 

[Andrew Dwyer]

37 minutes ago, owl sees all said:

Sorry everyone. Owl Log is late again.

 

Will post this afternoon, or tomorrow morning. Not to be missed though. Some absolutely riveting content; Earth shattering even. A tsunami of action. A infinitival of mysticism. And a pic of such wondrous beauty, that even now, I'm in two minds whether to expose it to the AN community.

 

So! Watch this space.

 

 

 

 

 

Hopefully it is not just the uncensored version of that photo ……. you could lose some readers if it is !!

[owl sees all]

Owl Log - Monday evening -Jan 15th 2024

 

It's all happening. Deep well DC pump has arrived. That must be a new year treat cause I first ordered this on on the 26th December. First there was the out of stock. Then they said faailed delivery. But now I have it. The whole package came to just over 6k baht. (do more on all this in the week). Now the cable coming off the pump is:

 

 

Quite plainly says 2.0 mm2. That's a cable 3 pin each with a copper x-sectional area of 4mm (2.0 x 2.0). Do you think I could find one on Lazada!! The only one I did find was priced at 55 baht per metre. Bit pricey that. So Mildred suggested that we go to Udon Thani and visit the big stores until we got what we were after. So off we set at 11ish. Stopped at Sum Sao Wat for some pics.

 

Nothing too exciting at the lake.

 

 

Then into the front area.

 

 

People were on the ground floor having grub.

 

 

No big changes upstairs, but there was some new decorative stuff.

 

 

Obviously to stop people falling over the little wall.

 

Black Buddha now has a plaque.

 

 

More decorative things.

 

 

A quick look back, and it was time to get back to Mildred waiting patiently in the Mazza.

 

 

40 minutes later we were in DoHome. I had the little bit of wire with me, so even the helpful staff couldn't get it wrong. They tied. But no, they didn't have any if that size. Not to fret, plenty more shops. So on to Home Hum a thousand metres south on the H2. I said to Mildred on the way that it was always quiet there. And I wasn't wrong. It was shut down.

 

 

Inside had been long cleared.

 

 

I had bought a generator at Tool Pro a few years back. They have everything. So just after we turned onto the Udon Ring Road we were there. Plenty of tools, and to be fair, there was a decent selection of cables. We were the only to customers and the staff were falling over themselves to make a sale. There would be better luck at Global House; surely!?

 

There were quite a few more in GH that the last store, but we were out of luck again. Forget the cable for a while and get to MAKRO for some goodies. I had the two big poly boxes on the back seat ready for the cheese and chips. MAKRO was absolutely packed. In the meat section alone, there must have been at least 100 people, mostly ladies, jostling for the lean cuts. Bought 6 kg of cheese and a couple of other tasties. Then it was off th TOA just along the road.

 

Showed the guy the wire in TOA, and he nodded. We followed him excitedly to the cable section. He looked. We looked. No! He was muttering ''Chinese wire not have''..

 

Last stop VIP on the road out of town. Bought a couple of chairs but no cable. We had been out for 4 hours and it was time to head home. Got to the lights and Mildred got a couple of snaps of the wire tangle.

 

 

We spotted a pick-up by the side of the 2022, just along from the old Buddha Bunny.

 

 

Got home at 5-22 and rested for an hour. Then the big surprise. ''Forgot to tell you Daddy. Have to go to the school tomorrow. All parents have to go.''

 

And so to this morning. Got at the school for eight.

 

 

Mrs Owl was walking a bit fast and I lost her in the crowd.

 

 

Can honestly say it was the biggest waste of 4 hours ever of my life. Mildred came out just after eleven, and reunited me and the Mrs. And returned home with us. But not yet. Went into the Daisha, the building shop, to get PVC pipes, for the first well-pump. Then off to Big C. Got our shopping and I had some 'chicken foot soup' in the eatery. Bought a winning lottery ticket and we headed home.

 

Floppy. one of the little dogs opposite us, had got himself caught in the sliding gate.

 

 

Took a while but we freed him. Seems perfectly OK.

 

Been experimenting with the air-lift system. Working out the pipe diameters for the best results.

 

 

Just running off the Mazza battery it give a decent lift. Now what would 1500 watts of solar leccy do?

 

Mildred went on the Intensive English w/e. She sent me the pics.

 

As far as I can ascertain it was the first time students met the new English Teachers.

Heard them all speak at the open day

this morning. Dear me!?

 

But that week end wasn't completely wasted. Mildred got a great cloud shot over the school footy pitch.

 

 

But we are here still, and Mildred has the day off tomorrow. So happy days.

 

What a shock. Portsmouth got done at home 0-3 to Orient. Yea! Foxes lose against the Sky Blues. Banks O'Dee hit six away from home. Ronnie O'sullivan wins the Snooker Masters and the Battle of the Lukes wemt to Humphries at the Alley Pally. What else? Scottish football is now ranked high on the BBC. Rangers and Celtic girls hit 19 goals between them, in their matches at the w/e.

 

The good news is. I found a supplier of the pump cable I've been seeking. Should be with me this week. 300 baht delivery charge. Also delivered today Some special rope that attaches to the pump, and a heat shrink set.

 

Still dry. 87 days since it last rained.

 

Only one thing left to say; bye y'all.

 

+++

 

Mildreds last three works.

 

 

www.mildredart.com

 

 

[owl sees all]

Ps ---- sorry about the errors in the Owl Log above. Just couldn't get the editor to work. And having pop-ups sploshed across the work=space makes things difficult too.

[HighPriority]

Did you find out what the 3 hr school assembly was for, in the end ? 🤣

[owl sees all]

4 hours ago, HighPriority said:

Did you find out what the 3 hr school assembly was for, in the end ? 🤣

Yes HP, I did. Well sort of!

 

It was to do with attendance. Mildred had a 94% score. A couple in her class had 100%. But there was/is more to it. Much more. Evidently students are getting checked in, then sneaking out. Climbing the perimeter walls. Finding holes in the fences. Hanging about in the woods. Excessive working out at the town exercise station. Chasing wild cats. Some up to no good, no doubt. Girls went missing more than the lads evidently. The parents clapped, although many were looking at their smart phones I noticed. Lots of masks.

 

 

What was said in the other 2 hours 45 minutes; well, I have no idea. But the new English teachers all said a little. That I just about understood.

 

I did have a minor episode with the gardener. I sat on a pink chair. No good stupid farang. The grey chairs were the same but they were the ones for parents, The pinkies were for teachers, administrators and gardeners. And the pink ones with cushions were for VIPs. I apologized, and sat on a grey one. Not nearly as comfortable.

 

There was also mention of a new fundraising effort. This school has big ideas. Air-con for all buildings. Security cameras. A bus for taking students to places of interest. Computers all round. More English teachers.

 

That's it til next time.

 

[HighPriority]

If you had of started chatting about avocados you’d be still comfortably seated owl.

Aircons wouldn’t be the worst thing to happen but yes the hand is always extended palm upwards…

[owl sees all]

9 hours ago, HighPriority said:

If you had of started chatting about avocados you’d be still comfortably seated owl.

Aircons wouldn’t be the worst thing to happen but yes the hand is always extended palm upwards…

From what I've now learned, there was quite a bit of talk about fund-raising.

 

Mrs Owl says the school is in debt. Over one million. Don't mind helping when the time comes.

[HighPriority]

A million Baht for a school that size… ?

Seems like nothing.

[owl sees all]

12 hours ago, HighPriority said:

A million Baht for a school that size… ?

Seems like nothing.

 

Sorry HP.

 

Mildred told me one million. just asked the Mrs. she says they need to raise 8 million.

[chickenslegs]

1 hour ago, owl sees all said:

 

Sorry HP.

 

Mildred told me one million. just asked the Mrs. she says they need to raise 8 million.

Bloomin' hek!

Just out of interest, what car does the school director drive?

[owl sees all]

8 hours ago, chickenslegs said:

Bloomin' hek!

Just out of interest, what car does the school director drive?

Even 8 million is not that much for a school that size. As HP said. If all the parents gave a gift if 5k it would be a big help though.

 

No idea what the director drives, but the head teacher who took Mildred to the English Competition the other week had a new(ish) Testla. Mildred said she was 'car sick'.

[HighPriority]

3 hours ago, owl sees all said:

Even 8 million is not that much for a school that size. As HP said. If all the parents gave a gift if 5k it would be a big help though.

 

No idea what the director drives, but the head teacher who took Mildred to the English Competition the other week had a new(ish) Testla. Mildred said she was 'car sick'.

Obviously Millie is used to a bit more diesel soot 🤣

[owl sees all]

6 hours ago, HighPriority said:

Obviously Millie is used to a bit more diesel soot 🤣

She is probably used to the lumpy ride and the noisy engine. Also the bonnet rattles like crazy. Robert can hear the Mazza coming over a kilometre away.

 

I'd like to think she is appreciative of older stuff though. As I am. I like old clothes and old furnishings. Cups and clocks and wooden coat-hangers. My favourite shorts are 35 years old. Also some trainers that I bought long before I first came to Thailand. Mrs Owl found them a few years back and put them in the bin. Fortunately I found them and hid them away good. TBH, I've forgotten where they are. But I'm sure they are safe out of the Mrs' reach.

 

And that new Thai money is a nightmare. Those 20 baht notes just slide away all the time. They are so slippery. Put them in my pocket, and the next thing ya know they are gone.