Legal experts summoned by Democrats call Trump actions impeachable

[webfact]

Legal experts summoned by Democrats call Trump actions impeachable

By David Morgan and Patricia Zengerle

 

U.S. President Donald Trump attends the NATO leaders summit in Watford, Britain December 4, 2019. REUTERS/Christian Hartmann/Pool

 

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President Donald Trump's actions to prod Ukraine to pursue investigations that could benefit him politically represent impeachable offences, constitutional law experts called by Democrats testified to the U.S. Congress on Wednesday as lawmakers laid the groundwork for formal charges against Trump.

 

At a House of Representatives Judiciary Committee hearing featuring political theatrics, three law professors chosen by the Democrats made clear that they believed Trump's actions constituted impeachable offences including abuse of power, bribery, obstruction of Congress and obstruction of justice.

 

A law professor selected by Trump's fellow Republicans disagreed, saying the Democratic-led impeachment inquiry was "slipshod" and "rushed" and lacked testimony from people with direct knowledge of the relevant events, adding that current evidence does not show Trump committed "a clear criminal act."

 

As Trump headed toward possible impeachment in the Democratic-controlled House within weeks, Republican lawmakers repeatedly tried to interrupt the hearing by raising objections and points of order.

 

The impeachment inquiry, launched in September, focuses on Trump's request on Ukraine to conduct investigations that could harm Democratic political rival Joe Biden. Collins said the impeachment drive - or as he called it a "railroad job" - was motivated by the deep-seated hatred Democrats feel toward Trump since he won the 2016 election.

 

The hearing was the committee's first to examine whether Trump's actions qualify as "high crimes and misdemeanours" punishable by impeachment under the U.S. Constitution. The panel would draft any articles of impeachment - formal charges - against Trump. If the House approves such charges, the Senate then would hold a trial on whether to remove Trump from office.

 

Trump has denied wrongdoing.

 

In London for a NATO meeting, Trump called a report by House Democrats released on Tuesday that laid out possible grounds for impeachment a "joke" and appeared to question the patriotism of the Democrats, asking, "Do they in fact love our country?"

 

The inquiry's focus is a July 25 telephone call in which Trump asked Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy to open an investigation into Biden and his son Hunter Biden and into a discredited theory promoted by Trump's allies that Ukraine, not Russia, meddled in the 2016 U.S. election.

 

Hunter Biden had joined the board of Ukrainian energy company Burisma while his father was U.S. vice president. Trump has accused the Bidens of corruption without offering evidence. They have denied wrongdoing.

 

Harvard University law professor Noah Feldman, called by the Democrats, testified that Trump's conduct embodies the concern expressed by the Constitution's 18th century authors "that a sitting president would corruptly abuse the powers of office to distort the outcome of a presidential election in his favour."

 

"If we cannot impeach a president who abuses his office for personal advantage, we no longer live in a democracy. We live in a monarchy or we live under a dictatorship," Feldman added.

 

Stanford University law school professor Pamela Karlan said Trump abused his power by demanding foreign involvement in a U.S. election, adding that his actions "struck at the very heart of what makes this country the republic to which we pledge allegiance."

 

"While the president can name his son Barron, he can't make him a baron," Karlan added, prompting a Twitter post by White House spokeswoman Stephanie Grisham calling the professor "classless" for using the president's son as a "punchline."

 

Karlan said Trump's actions constitute bribery as understood by the Constitution's framers. Asked whether Trump's demands on Ukraine established the high crime of bribery, Karlan said, "Yes they do."

 

'A KING ON AMERICAN SOIL'

George Washington University Law School Professor Jonathan Turley - the only witness chosen by the Republicans, though he said he voted against Trump in 2016 - disagreed that the president's actions constituted bribery and said the evidence does not adequately support the Democrats' allegations.

 

Turley admonished Trump over the Zelenskiy call - disagreeing with the president that it was "perfect" - and said leveraging U.S. military aid to investigate a political opponent "if proven, can be an impeachable offence."

 

University of North Carolina law professor Michael Gerhardt appeared to criticize Republicans for "leaving unchecked a president's assaults on our Constitution."

 

"If Congress fails to impeach here, then the impeachment process has lost all meaning, and, along with that, our Constitution's carefully crafted safeguards against the establishment of a king on American soil. No one, not even the president, is beyond the reach of our Constitution and our laws," Gerhardt said.

 

Democrats have accused Trump of abusing his power by withholding $391 million in security aid to Ukraine - a U.S. ally facing Russian aggression - as leverage to pressure Kiev into conducting the two investigations politically beneficial to Trump and for granting Zelenskiy a coveted White House visit.

 

The money, approved by Congress, was provided to Ukraine in September only after the controversy had spilled into public view.

 

Republicans complained that the inquiry lacked testimony from people with direct knowledge of the events. Trump has instructed current and former members of his administration not to testify or produce documents, leading senior officials like Secretary of State Mike Pompeo to defy House subpoenas.

 

No president has ever been removed from office through impeachment, though Republican Richard Nixon resigned in 1974 after the House began the impeachment process in the Watergate corruption scandal. Two other presidents were impeached by the House but acquitted by the Senate.

 

The committee could soon recommend articles of impeachment against Trump, setting up a possible vote by the full House before Christmas, followed by a Senate trial in January. Republicans, who control the Senate, have shown little appetite for removing Trump.

 

(Reporting by David Morgan and Patricia Zengerle; Additional reporting by Doina Chiacu, Richard Cowan, Lisa Lambert and Susan Cornwell in Washington and Steve Holland in London; Writing by Alistair Bell; Editing by Ross Colvin and Will Dunham)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2019-12-05

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[Samui Bodoh]

56 minutes ago, webfact said:

Republicans complained that the inquiry lacked testimony from people with direct knowledge of the events. Trump has instructed current and former members of his administration not to testify or produce documents, leading senior officials like Secretary of State Mike Pompeo to defy House subpoenas.

Trump supporters should re-read this paragraph many times.

 

Republicans complain of a 'lack of direct testimony' while the people with direct knowledge are barred from producing documents and/or testifying.

 

It is circular nonsense of the worst, most dishonest kind.

 

Should this argument be allowed to stand, it would mean that a US President is not only above the law, it would mean that S/he is beyond investigation. Hey Trump supporters! How would you feel if a future President Hillary Clinton was beyond investigation? Something to ponder as rules, once set, apply to all...

 

There is a simple way to see if those who are being banned from testifying would have some positive things to contribute; take what I call the 'Trump Test'. Can you name anyone, apart from perhaps Niki Haley, who has seen their reputation improve from their time associating with Trump? A single name? No? I didn't think so.

 

I have said it before and (sadly) need to say it again;

 

Donald Trump is an ever-expanding cloud of toxic waste that defiles everything it touches.

 

Let this global nightmare end soon!

 

 

 

Edited December 4, 2019 by Samui Bodoh
Lack of coffee

[Puchaiyank]

How many think the Democrats would call a so-called legal expert that did not think Trump should be impeached...raise your hands...I thought so!   ????

[Sujo]

22 minutes ago, Puchaiyank said:

How many think the Democrats would call a so-called legal expert that did not think Trump should be impeached...raise your hands...I thought so!   ????

To be fair they couldnt find one with any credibility.

[thaibeachlovers]

Go for it Nancy, impeach him, just do it.

Nothing to fear.

2020 to 2024.

[ExpatOK]

Another example of why Nancy Pelosi has been reluctant to let Nadler play a leadership role in this impeachment inquiry. Things never go well for the Dems when he is involved. Poor choice of Dem witnesses. Complete disaster with one of the Dem so called experts taking a shot at the Trumps' minor son, Baron. 

 

Edited December 4, 2019 by ExpatOK

[J Town]

29 minutes ago, Puchaiyank said:

How many think the Democrats would call a so-called legal expert that did not think Trump should be impeached...raise your hands...I thought so!   ????

None such exist. If they're an expert then they say "impeach." If you believe in truth then they say "impeach." 

 

"Republicans complained that the inquiry lacked testimony from people with direct knowledge of the events. Trump has instructed current and former members of his administration not to testify or produce documents, leading senior officials like Secretary of State Mike Pompeo to defy House subpoenas."

 

You can not get a more clear example of pure obstruction. This means "impeach."

 

Three experts report that all requirements for impeachment were met - overwhelmingly.

[TopDeadSenter]

15 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Go for it Nancy, impeach him, just do it.

Nothing to fear.

2020 to 2024.

Forget about 2020, Trump could go on a world-wide golfing trip for the next year and still ace the election. The unhinged democrats with their only message of hate, dishonesty and divisiveness has cost them any chance whatsoever. It's mad because most Americans care more about employment, feeding their families, security and bettering their lives, nobody really gives a hoot about some unfathomable and convoluted BS in the Ukraine(if anyone can even find it on a map Ill be surprised). 2024 is more important now for the GOP. 

 This impeachment farce is gold for the GOP, and has thrust several relatively unknown politicians into the limelight where, Boy did they shine! Still, my first choice would be Don Jr, his twitter account is a huge dose of common sense, he is clearly made of the right stuff. KAGA2024

Edited December 4, 2019 by TopDeadSenter

[sammieuk1]

All this and a Christmas present promise from Mr Kim what a corfefe ????

[thaibeachlovers]

11 minutes ago, J Town said:

None such exist. If they're an expert then they say "impeach." If you believe in truth then they say "impeach." 

 

"Republicans complained that the inquiry lacked testimony from people with direct knowledge of the events. Trump has instructed current and former members of his administration not to testify or produce documents, leading senior officials like Secretary of State Mike Pompeo to defy House subpoenas."

 

You can not get a more clear example of pure obstruction. This means "impeach."

 

Three experts report that all requirements for impeachment were met - overwhelmingly.

Excellent. They should be impeaching him now, surely?

Think they will? 5555555555555555555

 

Nothing to fear.

[J Town]

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Excellent. They should be impeaching him now, surely?

Think they will? 5555555555555555555

 

Nothing to fear.

What?

 

Yeah, they will impeach. They already have to votes, they're now going through the motions.

[Sujo]

12 minutes ago, TopDeadSenter said:

Forget about 2020, Trump could go on a world-wide golfing trip for the next year and still ace the election. The unhinged democrats with their only message of hate, dishonesty and divisiveness has cost them any chance whatsoever. It's mad because most Americans care more about employment, feeding their families, security and bettering their lives, nobody really gives a hoot about some unfathomable and convoluted BS in the Ukraine(if anyone can even find it on a map Ill be surprised). 2024 is more important now for the GOP. 

 This impeachment farce is gold for the GOP, and has thrust several relatively unknown politicians into the limelight where, Boy did they shine! Still, my first choice would be Don Jr, his twitter account is a huge dose of common sense, he is clearly made of the right stuff. KAGA2024

Great. So we wont see you on here crying about impeachment.

[TopDeadSenter]

5 minutes ago, Sujo said:

Great. So we wont see you on here crying about impeachment.

No I wil not be crying about impeachment. It is a tragic waste of time and resources. Time that should be spent working on ways to improve American peoples lives. But as noted above, it strengthens and unites the GOP, and as polls show swing voters are sick to the back teeth of this BS.

 Still, incredibly Trump just keeps on doing amazing stuff in spite of all the muck and hate thrown his way. Taking on China and Europe and negotiating fair trade deals is miraculous considering the dems trying to undermine him and side with the enemy at every step. Traitors each and every one of them.

 Just note how the Hong Kong protesters are carrying USA flags and Trump photos. None of them have Hillary or Biden photos. Trump is a worldwide symbol of Freedom. Just incredible to see this, and feeling very proud of President Trump for changing the world for the better.

Edited December 5, 2019 by TopDeadSenter

[J Town]

1 minute ago, TopDeadSenter said:

It is a tragic waste of time and resources. Time that should be spent working on ways to improve American peoples lives.

Are you referring to the hundreds of bills Mitch McConnell is suppressing?

[GalaxyMan]

Incontrovertible obstruction. Impeachable. Get rid of this scum. Kudos to Princess Anne for refusing to greet the <deleted>. ????

Edited December 5, 2019 by metisdead
Profane and inflammatory acronym removed.

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, GalaxyMan said:

Incontrovertible obstruction. Impeachable. Get rid of this scum. Kudos to Princess Anne for refusing to greet the <deleted>. ????

Impeach impeach impeach. Yes please Nancy, just do it.

Nothing to fear.

 

Princess of "naff". LOL. 

[Baerboxer]

6 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Impeach impeach impeach. Yes please Nancy, just do it.

Nothing to fear.

 

Princess of "naff". LOL. 

 

And Nancy and her family as so squeaky clean then - 555! Just like the Clintons, the Bidens etc etc.

 

Wonder how left wing liberals and democrats will react when a Republican controlled house spends all its time trying to impeach one of their Presidents!

[pmarlin]

You got 3 ultra liberal activist that were cherry picked by the democrat's in congress as so called experts.  I watched some of the hearing and it was disgusting how one sided they were. They weren't experts they were there because of their activist anti-american past. They have been exposed and its all over Facebook and twitter about just who they are. Dishonest hypocrites.

[Becker]

11 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

And Nancy and her family as so squeaky clean then - 555! Just like the Clintons, the Bidens etc etc.

 

Wonder how left wing liberals and democrats will react when a Republican controlled house spends all its time trying to impeach one of their Presidents!

You don't have to wonder. That happened in 1998 and he was acquitted in 1999. Forgot that did we?

[riclag]

3 against one. Turley spoke of the constitution and the harm the dems are doing to the office of future POTUS.

 

The other 3 were exposed as Trump haters and can't be taken serious 

 

 

[Sujo]

57 minutes ago, pmarlin said:

You got 3 ultra liberal activist that were cherry picked by the democrat's in congress as so called experts.  I watched some of the hearing and it was disgusting how one sided they were. They weren't experts they were there because of their activist anti-american past. They have been exposed and its all over Facebook and twitter about just who they are. Dishonest hypocrites.

Even the repub witness said what trump did was wrong.

[JCauto]

7 hours ago, TopDeadSenter said:

No I wil not be crying about impeachment. It is a tragic waste of time and resources. Time that should be spent working on ways to improve American peoples lives. But as noted above, it strengthens and unites the GOP, and as polls show swing voters are sick to the back teeth of this BS.

Got a link to these polls?

[Sujo]

1 hour ago, Baerboxer said:

 

And Nancy and her family as so squeaky clean then - 555! Just like the Clintons, the Bidens etc etc.

 

Wonder how left wing liberals and democrats will react when a Republican controlled house spends all its time trying to impeach one of their Presidents!

And just what does pelosi and the clintons have to do with what trump did.

 

Quick look over there.

 

Well dems should react the same way trump is. Im sure you would find that totally acceptable.

[JCauto]

1 hour ago, Baerboxer said:

And Nancy and her family as so squeaky clean then - 555! Just like the Clintons, the Bidens etc etc.

 

Wonder how left wing liberals and democrats will react when a Republican controlled house spends all its time trying to impeach one of their Presidents!

No need to wonder - it already happened to Bill Clinton, and the Republican-controlled House spent most of Obama's 2nd term investigating Benghazi in an attempt to get Hillary. After much more time and money spent than on this impeachment, they provided something very useful - the definition of a "nothingburger". No charges for anyone, nada. Contrast that with this investigation. Several of the President's inner circle indicted, some already in jail, others likely to follow.

 

The only thing Republicans have to rest on is "no direct testimony", something that was ensured through the President's obstruction of justice when he ordered everyone to disobey legal subpoenas. Even the best alibi you can come up with is in itself an impeachable offense.

[BobBKK]

"hands up all those who have any evidence of Trump wrongdoing"?  None?  not ONE hand?

you know that word right?  "E-V-I-D-E-N-C-E"  the sort of thing you teach in your law schools?  pathetic

[mogandave]

4 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

"hands up all those who have any evidence of Trump wrongdoing"?  None?  not ONE hand?

you know that word right?  "E-V-I-D-E-N-C-E"  the sort of thing you teach in your law schools?  pathetic

There does not need to be a crime, much less evidence of one for Trump to be impeached. 
 

Impeachment is a political process, not a legal one. 

[J Town]

35 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

"hands up all those who have any evidence of Trump wrongdoing"?  None?  not ONE hand?

you know that word right?  "E-V-I-D-E-N-C-E"  the sort of thing you teach in your law schools?  pathetic

Question - do you acknowledge Trump called the newly elected president of Ukraine and asked him to make a public statement about investigating the Bidens? I mean, even Trump admitted it, saying it was "perfect." This is commonly referred to as "E-V-I-D-E-N-C-E"

 

A mom made some brownies for her kids. The smelled delicious, and the kids were about to dig in. Mom said "I put a little dog doo in the batter." The kids were shocked! "Really mom, dog doo in the batter?" Mom replied "It's just a little, you won't even notice."

 

What Trump did was illegal, and any patriotic citizen should be outraged at this repugnant attempt to cheat in the 2020 election. Some people look at it as not that big a deal. NO! It is the dog doo in the 2020 election process.

 

 

Edited December 5, 2019 by J Town
punctuation

[Bucknaway]

If President Trump's term is interrupted by impeachment could he be elected two more times?

[JHolmesJr]

2 hours ago, JCauto said:

Got a link to these polls?

 

Just for you...fresh off the cherry tree.....oh wait....it's a liberal rag....lol

 

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2019/11/new-poll-suggests-democrats-impeachment-push-could-alienate-key-voters

Edited December 5, 2019 by JHolmesJr

[JHolmesJr]

44 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

"hands up all those who have any evidence of Trump wrongdoing"?  None?  not ONE hand?

you know that word right?  "E-V-I-D-E-N-C-E"  the sort of thing you teach in your law schools?  pathetic

 

The three Dem lawyers weren't there for facts...but for giving opinions.

Cant believe the nasty woman who dragged Barron Trump's name into this...despicable.

All in all...another snooze fest arranged by Nadler. I doubt many people watched it....all they have

to fall back on is CNN and MSNBC who will spin this like a conviction has already been reached.

 

Roll on, Senate trial. Joe Biden, Hunter Biden raise your right hand and let's get this laundry started.

Its time to wash America clean.