Death Penalty

[Nebukanezar]

Oh I see, the purpose of these executions is to make victims feel better. I would expect then that you supportes of state-sponsored executions will be equally vocal in your search for closure for those poor victims in Iraq. Maybe all the Iraqis who have lost children and loved ones will feel better when they see those responsible punished.

But wait a second, that's not going to happen. No, usually the people in this world who end up being executed are the weak and powerless who are often victims themselves or mentally defective. Most murder in this world is commited by people who will never be punished.

Nobody has the right to take a life and nobody has the right to ask somebody else to take a life on their behalf.

Life without parole should be enough for even the most serious offenses and prison shouldn't be about the prisoners comfort.

Your words too me sound whiney, spineless and callous, as if the victims should give up their rights so that thouse scumbags can live. Had my father and I found him before the police did, his 6th victim would still be alive today and he would have met his demise a hel_l of alot sooner. Fact is man dose kill. And to preserve law and protect the rights of the victims, in certain societies, Capital Punishment is nessacary. It's Nesscary in Thailand (as the The Thais belive) and it's sure as hel_l nessacary in the State were I'm from.

As for Iraq you know nothing, I'm there now...thats just sooo that it adds nothing to your weak argument.

[garro]

I am sorry if I seem whiney, spineless and callous but I just can never see any good coming from executing someone. This is just my opinion and you don't have to agree. My point about Iraq is a bit off topic but I am just pointing out that very few people who get killed will have there deaths avenged so why bother with few. Not every murderer in the US will be executed just a small percentage so why bother.

Edited March 31, 2007 by garro

[canuckamuck]

The good that results from an execution is that innocent people are now permanently safe from one who chose to steal, kill, and destroy. This is liberation from fear. Also, the necessary cause and effect of the justice system remains in order. This is a standard we can define and build a society around. This is wisdom, it has always been so. Anarchy follows the dilution of justice. Sometimes good people have to do the right thing.

It’s OK Garro, we need compassionate people too, it keeps things in balance. But without a strong justice system, your quality of life goes out the window. If there is a side effect of people finding closure as a result of justice - that is a good thing too. But I doubt it ever makes up for much. Justice is weakened by vengeance and it should steer clear of that slippery slope.

If my life ended by a legal error that would be hard on my family, but I am not afraid to die. We should all be prepared. Life is unpredictable.

[Nebukanezar]

Why bother?

It's like the old story of the girl and the beach full of starfish... " There once was a huge storm that hit over night in a small fishing village. No one was hurt but the beach was a mess with broken boats, nets and littered with starfish that had been beached upon the shore from the heavy waves. A little girl started picking up some and tossing them back into the water. Her father came by and saw what she was doing and asked "what are you doing honey?" "Saving the starfish so they don't die..." she said as she dropped 2 back in with her arms full. "But their are hundreds of thousands of them you can't save them all, what difference dose it make to save a handful?" he asked smiling at his daughter as she plucked up the slimy fish "It makes a difference to the ones I save." she looked back and said.

No garro, you can't save the world and right all of it's injustices, but the ones you can fix, fix and it will be a light of justice and compassion for those that can have it.

Don't use the enormity of a problem as an excuse to let it fester.

Perhaps whiney is a bit much, you probably have lived a blessed life away from the type of ugliness that comes with these situations and the people that commit these heinous acts. Nothing wrong with that and I hope you continue to do so, never knowing this kind of shit first hand.

All I ask is that you consider that going through it can give you a more in depth view into the situation and the realization that some people just need to die.

[garro]

You are right Nebukanezar I have not had the same life experiences as you. I can only go by my own experiences. Of course I feel bad about the victims and their families but I just can't see the justification for execution no matter how much I listen to the arguments for it. There is just something very strong inside me telling me it is wrong.

I remember when I was a very young child seeing a film about somebody being executed and it really affected me. It was probably the first time I realised that the world could be a pretty harsh place.

Families wanting punishment for those who hurt their loved ones is to be expected. Few people blame victims who take the law into their own hands. The planned execution of someone I can't accept I think it would be preferable to amputate all their limbs and stick them in a box. At least they would have a chance of seeing the errors they have made.

I personally would rather die than kill but I would probably fight to the death to protect my family.

Edited March 31, 2007 by garro

[atlastaname]

Death penalty ...NO , for all the reasons listed above by others

[aussiestyle1983]

I vote No.

A horible life in prison is good enough for the scum that deserves it.

[opothai]

i believe the death penalty should be used.

in the uk the government will not have a refferendum on the death penalty as they know people will vote for it.

too many re-offenders being let out of overcrowded prisons and crimes that make you cry when reading about what harm and pain one human can do to another.

these people do not deserve to live in or breath the same air on this planet any longer.

[Nebukanezar]

i believe the death penalty should be used.

in the uk the government will not have a refferendum on the death penalty as they know people will vote for it.

too many re-offenders being let out of overcrowded prisons and crimes that make you cry when reading about what harm and pain one human can do to another.

these people do not deserve to live in or breath the same air on this planet any longer.

Well Said

[JR Texas]

i believe the death penalty should be used.

in the uk the government will not have a refferendum on the death penalty as they know people will vote for it.

too many re-offenders being let out of overcrowded prisons and crimes that make you cry when reading about what harm and pain one human can do to another.

these people do not deserve to live in or breath the same air on this planet any longer.

Well Said

JR Texas: We are all potential criminals.........we should all be executed at birth. The point needs to be raised again that innocent people are being executed. Far more have been falsely convicted, sentenced to death, put on death row, and then found not guilty. You could be one of them. It would not be that hard to do in Thailand.....all it takes is some person to plant something on your or in your house and there you are........facing the death squad....totally innocent.

We always think it could never happen to us and that we could never be accused and convicted of something we did not do. That only happens to "bad people." That is the central flaw in the logic of those that support the death penalty.

[kayo]

The news clippings this week touches the issue of death penalty for some crimes.

I support it. The only problem I have is that someone innocent may die. But I also think it is a nesessary measure.

People who smuggle drugs, human traffickers (sex slave traders), rapists and murderers deserve it.

Your categories of "capital crimes" are a little catch-all

The opposition against death penalty seems to come mostly from europeans, for whom the death penalty is too harsh. (I live in Europe.)

By all accounts imprisonment in the US can be a fairly horrific way to spend the rest of your

life (and there life can mean life). I think European countries (and I canoot bring to mind one

that still has it) have ended executions on moral grounds.

(snip for brevity)

Death penalty, yes or no ?

In Europe, or to be (become) a member of the european community, a country must renounce the death penalty. I think this is where Turkey has stumbled most in it's application.

Useless thread. Done before and leads nowhere.

No positive input on Thailand.

LaoPo

JR Texas: I oppose the death penalty for several reasons:

1) mistakes can and have been made (in my own country, the USA, the Supreme Court has ruled that at least 30 innocent people have been put to death),

How many guilty ones have been found innocent and have gone on to commit further crimes?

and yet I would rather TEN Guilty men go free, than ONE innocent man be given the chair

2) it does not prevent crime (do we really need more evidence),

No one who has been executed has committed further crimes, have they?

And of the innocents, noone who has been executed has gone on to live a harmless life have they?

3) it is barbaric and beneath us as a species, and

And murder isn't?

Yes it is. This is why, IMHO, the LAW shouldn't be permitted to impose such a barbaric sentence such as a state funded murder.

4) if punishment is what people are after, my guess is that living in prison for life would be worse than death.

55555, three square meals a day, no money worries, recreation, no medical bills - need I go on?

On this I agree, as far as white collar prisons are concerned. Ever visited a maximum security prison, though? Yet none the less, in most western countriesmore money is spent per capita on (maintaining) prisoners than, say, the elderly for example, and this is something I can not condone either.

Ultimately I am against it. And have voted as such. yeah the prison system is flawed (society is flawed), I will always do my utmost to respect the laws of my host nation however, and when I lived in Thailand, I generally did.

After all, it is not my nation to try to change.

But I am nonetheless, with the view that state funded murder is barbaric, and beneath us as civilised human beings.

edit> I'd just like to add in here, that which posted in the previous poll about this. Upon re/reading it, i still totally agree (with myself )

"Who's Judges the Judges? How can executing a convicted executioner be any better than what the executee has done? How is murder unjustified when commited by a citizen, if his own government justifies it by a fallible court/justice system?

And

What if said court is wrong? What if the person being whacked is NOT the right person?

further cases in point,

Sometimes a murder is commited that was unintended. It may be an accident or a self defence gesture gone awry. sometimes that comes off as involuntary manslaughter, and even then the punishment is too harsh (Usually 10 to 20 yrs). Othertimes though, (and taking into account this infallible court system, influences, etc...) the charges are deemed more serious nonetheless, and then what...? A person who was accidentaly involved in a death gets a punishment that concludes in his own death?

I feel the mannerisms of it all are far too likely to go wrong. Wrong decisions, wrong people, wrong punishment.

Some have mentioned, "IF it were infallible..."

Even if it were, who gets this say so to kill or not to kill? Why should some be accorded this right and others not?

One of the very foundations for a society to live in a decent and humane manner is to respect life.

When we stop (in some nation's cases, if they revert) to respect life, then a key cornerstone of society is destroyed.

There is an irreparable moral black hole in any person who "judges" another should be executed.

And there are many other forms of dealing with the guilty, that, as mentioned, can be far worse. Drop someone off in his enemies territory, for example, in ganglands. Leave peadophile in prison, and to my (limited) knowledge in any country in the world, the inmates will take care of him, in a none too pleasant manner...etc, etc...

So No was my response.

Edited April 1, 2007 by kayo

[aussiestyle1983]

i believe the death penalty should be used.

in the uk the government will not have a refferendum on the death penalty as they know people will vote for it.

too many re-offenders being let out of overcrowded prisons and crimes that make you cry when reading about what harm and pain one human can do to another.

these people do not deserve to live in or breath the same air on this planet any longer.

Well Said

JR Texas: We are all potential criminals.........we should all be executed at birth. The point needs to be raised again that innocent people are being executed. Far more have been falsely convicted, sentenced to death, put on death row, and then found not guilty. You could be one of them. It would not be that hard to do in Thailand.....all it takes is some person to plant something on your or in your house and there you are........facing the death squad....totally innocent.

We always think it could never happen to us and that we could never be accused and convicted of something we did not do. That only happens to "bad people." That is the central flaw in the logic of those that support the death penalty.

Good point.

It would be funny to watch the reaction of one of those people who voted for the death penalty if one of their children was wrongly convicted and put to death after being totally innocent. How would they feel about the death penalty after that? Would their view on the death penatly change?

[canuckamuck]

JR Texas: We are all potential criminals.........we should all be executed at birth. The point needs to be raised again that innocent people are being executed. Far more have been falsely convicted, sentenced to death, put on death row, and then found not guilty. You could be one of them. It would not be that hard to do in Thailand.....all it takes is some person to plant something on your or in your house and there you are........facing the death squad....totally innocent.

We always think it could never happen to us and that we could never be accused and convicted of something we did not do. That only happens to "bad people." That is the central flaw in the logic of those that support the death penalty.

The central flaw in the logic of your argument is this fear of misguided justice. An investigation of wrongful deaths by execution in places like the US will show that the vast majority of those people had put themselves in a situation that compromised their accountability. They did this by earning a reputation of violence, or a sex offender, or some other criminal association; basically by choosing a lifestyle counter to safe law respecting society. If you are going to be a low-life, or run with low-lifes, sometimes you’re going to reap what they sow. The people who do not fall into this category on death row is likely a microscopic percentage, especially now with the advent of DNA testing. Life is hard, choose upright living you’re your life won’t end like that of a common criminal.

People who die at the hands of incompetent legal systems in third world countries - well there is no point debating that. Your opinion makes no difference to them.

[mr_hippo]

It would be funny to watch the reaction of one of those people who voted for the death penalty if one of their children was wrongly convicted and put to death after being totally innocent. How would they feel about the death penalty after that? Would their view on the death penatly change?

We can even turn that question around, can't we? How would you feel if a member of your family was murdered, the person was caught and sentenced to 'life' which is only about 8 years in England and released. He is now free, walking about and your family member is still dead. You can't give an answer to this until it happens and neither can the ones who support the death penalty answer yours.

This thread is futile because until the lily-livered, namby-pamby, politically correct, do-gooders wield no more power or sway over decent law-abiding citizens.

[kayo]

and the countdown timer starts....

[mr_hippo]

and the countdown timer starts....

It started today in the UK in a small way - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/6515077.stm

[luckyluke]

We do not have the ability to be just in matters of death and life,we cannot dispense life,so how can we dispense death?

I voted No

[canuckamuck]

We do not have the ability to be just in matters of death and life,we cannot dispense life,so how can we dispense death?

I voted No

Everyone is going to die, no one knows when. Some people on death row would have died much sooner outside of prison. If you want to live a long time, don’t kill anybody and it might happen. We didn’t invent death, it is inherited. All we can do is manage the herd.

[JR Texas]

We do not have the ability to be just in matters of death and life,we cannot dispense life,so how can we dispense death?

I voted No

JR Texas: Just a quick response to several posts.

Even the best people can be executed and those that embrace Christianity should know this.....sometimes good people can interact with good people and still end up executed by the state.

The namby-pamby-flower-picking-save-the-whales-liberals are not saying that justice is not necessary. I can only imagine the pain of losing a wife at the hand of a murderer (one poster talked about this and how it impacted him for ten years). Still, mistakes can be made........I would not want to make the mistake of executing an innocent person and life in prison would be, at least for me, far worse than death.

I understand the emotion that one must feel when this sort of things hits you on a personal level. But it is important for us to not allow emotion to impair our collective judgment. That must be guided by reason. And our decisions must have a moral base.

If "justice" and "revenge" are the goals.........life in prison with no possibility of parole seems to fulfill those goals. That keeps the offender off the streets........and also opens the door to the possibility that the offender can live if found not guilty down the road.....that is, in the event of a mistake.

Have I made mistakes in judgment my life? Yes. Have I thought that I was absolutely certain about something only to find that I was wrong? Yes. Humans make mistakes.........OJ Simpson is walking the streets..........JC isn't. The only reasonable solution is life in prison.

[garro]

UK

Let him have justice, say campaigners

Bentley: the last man to hang in Britain

Bentley's neice, Maria Bentley Dingwall: 'Ours is the strongest case'

An appeal to try to clear the name of Derek Bentley, the teenager who was hanged 45 years ago for murdering a policeman, is getting under way in London.

The case has always turned on the famous phrase he allegedly uttered shortly before his accomplice shot dead a policeman: "Let him have it".

This week, 45 years after the hanging, the Court of Appeal is looking at new evidence.

The Crown alleged at Bentley's trial in 1952 that the crucial words were those of an angry young man urging his accomplice to shoot a policeman.

The BBC's Jane Peel: 'New evidence suggests Bentley had a mental age of about ten'

The jury apparently accepted the inference although they made a plea for mercy, which was ignored.

Bentley's defence lawyer pointed out he was already under arrest when he supposedly made the remark and said he was simply exhorting Christopher Craig to hand over the weapon.

Did he say it?

Campaigners seeking a pardon for 19-year-old Bentley have always insisted he never uttered the crucial phrase.

Bentley himself always denied having said it.

Bentley's sister Iris: never gave up

If his name is cleared it will come too late for his sister Iris, who campaigned on his behalf for 44 years. She passed away last year.

On 2 November 1952, Bentley and Craig were robbing a confectionery warehouse in Croydon, south London when they were discovered by a police patrol.

Bentley was apprehended on the roof. He had a knife and a knuckleduster but used neither.

As he was being held by Detective Constable Fred Fairfax he supposedly called out to Craig: "Let him have it Chris".

Craig shot DC Fairfax in the shoulder. Several minutes later PC Miles was shot dead as he climbed up onto the roof.

Craig shortly after his arrest

When Craig ran out of bullets he jumped off the roof, was injured and arrested.

Bentley was hanged at Wandsworth prison on 28 January 1953 after the then Home Secretary, David Maxwell Fyfe, rejected a last minute plea for clemency.

'Made an example of him'

It later transpired the Conservative government, worried by growing violence in the post-war period, had decided to "make an example" of Bentley.

Craig, who was described by the judge at his trial as "one of the most dangerous men in Britain", only served 10 years in jail. He was 16 at the time of the offence and was too young for a death sentence.

The appeal is based on new evidence which casts doubt on the key words being used as well as questions about the judge's directions to the jury and the issue of Bentley's mental age.

Inadequate character

He was an illiterate epileptic with a mental age of 10.

His former teacher Hugh Maw, 77, who later became a child psychologist, says: "If there was a fight he was a coward, which always brings me to the crucial words at his trial: 'Let him have it, Chris.' This was typical - Give in and not kill him."

Bentley was hanged at Wandsworth jail in London

There were disturbances outside Wandsworth jail when Bentley was executed. The uproar which followed his death triggered MP Sydney Silverman's campaign to ban capital punishment, which was finally achieved in 1964.

Long wait for justice

When the case was referred back to the Court of Appeal by the Criminal Cases Review Commission in November 1997 it was the longest gap between a conviction and an appeal in British legal history.

Bentley's sister kept a bottle of champagne in her home for 44 years, hoping to break it open when her brother's name was finally cleared.

In the event it will be left to her daughter, Maria Bentley-Dingwall, 35, to pop the cork.

If the conviction is overturned it will also mean Bentley's relatives will be able to rebury him in consecrated ground.

[aussiestyle1983]

It would be funny to watch the reaction of one of those people who voted for the death penalty if one of their children was wrongly convicted and put to death after being totally innocent. How would they feel about the death penalty after that? Would their view on the death penatly change?

We can even turn that question around, can't we? How would you feel if a member of your family was murdered, the person was caught and sentenced to 'life' which is only about 8 years in England and released. He is now free, walking about and your family member is still dead.

At least if he was released and was out in the public I would be able to give him the justice I thoguht he deserved

[BigSnake]

I support it 100 per as long there is no doubt what so ever about the person is guilt of the crime.

[garro]

Prime Minister Tony Blair has apologised to the Guildford Four who were wrongfully convicted of IRA bomb attacks in England in 1974.

In a letter, Mr Blair acknowledged the "miscarriage of justice" which they suffered as a result of their wrongful convictions.

Details of the apology are revealed for the first time in a special two-part edition of BBC Northern Ireland's Spotlight programme, on the changing fortunes of West Belfast man Paul Hill, to be broadcast on 6 and 13 June.

Paul Hill, Gerry Conlon, Patrick Armstrong and Carole Richardson, were given life sentences for bombing public houses in Guildford, Surrey.

Each of them spent 15 years in prison before the convictions were overturned by the Court of Appeal in 1989.

Mr Hill and Mr Armstrong were also wrongfully sentenced for a bomb attack in Woolwich. A total of seven people died in the Guildford and Woolwich explosions.

The apology, personally signed by the Prime Minster, was sent by Mr Blair to Paul Hill's wife, Courtney Kennedy Hill, the daughter of the assassinated American Attorney-General Robert Kennedy, and niece of the late John F Kennedy.

The prime minister wrote: "I believe that it is an indictment of our system of justice and a matter for the greatest regret when anyone suffers punishment as a result of a miscarriage of justice.

"There were miscarriages of justice in your husband's case, and the cases of those convicted with him. I am very sorry indeed that this should have happened."

Paul Hill pictured with wife Courtney Kennedy and daughter Saoirse

It is understood Mr Hill, 45, has received £200,000 as an interim compensation payment, and is still waiting on a final settlement.

'Cold and numb'

He said: "No one knows the monetary value you can put on 15 years. I don't think there is anybody alive who can come out of that experience and not be scarred.

"Those who would begrudge me my compensation - their minds are smaller than peas. To those who say, oh, he's living well, you have no idea."

Reflecting on the Guildford verdict, Paul Hill said: " I stood in the court. I was numb. I had no feelings whatsoever. I wasn't sad, I was not depressed, I was cold and numb.

"And I think the most poignant thing was that the judge expressed regret that the death penalty was not an option."

In 1994 Paul Hill was cleared of murdering of Brian Shaw, a former soldier killed in Belfast in 1974.

Mr Hill had signed a confession admitting the killing in the presence of two RUC men in Guildford police station.

'Inhuman treatment'

During his detention, he was threatened by a Surrey police officer who pointed an unloaded gun through the hatch in his cell door.

At the Shaw appeal the then Lord Chief Justice, Sir Brian Hutton, said the use of the revolver was a "disgraceful and grossly improper action, which clearly constituted inhuman treatment".

He ruled the conviction "unsafe and unsatisfactory" and allowed the appeal.

Brian Shaw's brother, Malcolm, who also served in the army in Northern Ireland is also interviewed on the programme.

[mr_hippo]

"Bentley: the last man to hang in Britain" I think you ought to do more research. Bentley was not the last man to hang in Great Britain. There were 7 men and 1 woman who were executed after Bentley.

[garro]

"Bentley: the last man to hang in Britain" I think you ought to do more research. Bentley was not the last man to hang in Great Britain. There were 7 men and 1 woman who were executed after Bentley.

It is not up to me how the BBC decide to title their articles. Maybe you should contact them and complain.

[mr_hippo]

Why are you just relying on one source of information? It does your argument no good at all.

[garro]

Why are you just relying on one source of information? It does your argument no good at all.

I do not work as your research assistant and I don't see you providing any support for your arguments.

I could provide 1,000 of sources of information but this would not satisfy some people.

I posted these articles as examples of cases which throw some doubt on the fairness of having the death penalty. It is up to others to make their own mind up.

Frankly in your case I couldn't give a toss what you make of them. From your posts you don't come across as someone who I would normally have much to do with. But good luck anyway

Edited April 1, 2007 by garro

[OlRedEyes]

No.

It's primitive. No evidence that it is a deterrent either. Apart from the unreliability of justice systems, especially in less-developed countries, but also in first-world countries.

I have a sneaking suspicion that those that cite 'justice' as a reason for supporting it, are deep-down really just feeling a blood-lust for revenge.

Edited April 1, 2007 by OlRedEyes

[Ulysses G.]

I have a sneaking suspicion that those that cite 'justice' as a reason for supporting it, are deep-down really just feeling a blood-lust for revenge.

Justice or revenge, if some scumbag hurts me or mine without being provoked, either will do!

[mr_hippo]

Why are you just relying on one source of information? It does your argument no good at all.

I do not work as your research assistant and I don't see you providing any support for your arguments.

I could provide 1,000 of sources of information but this would not satisfy some people.

I posted these articles as examples of cases which throw some doubt on the fairness of having the death penalty. It is up to others to make their own mind up.

Frankly in your case I couldn't give a toss what you make of them. From your posts you don't come across as someone who I would normally have much to do with. But good luck anyway

I do not need you as my research assistant to prove your case. I have got better things to do with my life. As I stated in a previous post, I cannot convert you and you cannot convert me.