Scotland must be given new independence vote - Sturgeon

[Nigel Garvie]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

What no-one has mentioned yet, do all the Scots that want independence also want to rejoin the EU? You may be correct in your assumption that the majority of Scots may want to disengage itself from the rest of the UK (at this very moment), but that does not automatically mean that the Scots want to rejoin the EU again, it just doesn't make sense that Scotland would get back power from Westminster and then hand it straight back to Brussels. That I'm sure would put a lot of Scots from voting to leave the Union, Jim Sillars the ex deputy leader of the SNP has suggested that there would be many abstensions from voters, deciding not to vote rather than vote againgst the SNP.

 

"And Nicola Sturgeon has been dancing up and down on the ball saying, you know you're stealing powers from us.

"The irony is that if she gets these powers, she wants to hand them all back to Brussels.

"That's a massive contradiction and her policy position.

"And I don't believe that if the SNP goes forward on a platform (that says) vote for independence and we take that automatically as a going into the European Union, I don't believe she'll get a majority." :Jim Sillars

 

 

 

You appear to forget that Scotland voted overwhelmingly to stay in the EU. Every single constituency bar none voted to stay, even Tory and Labour unionist seats. 

The idea that EU membership where you are basically part of a club within agreed (And for most of us agreeable) terms, and where you retain sovereignty, is anything remotely like being controlled by another country with you retaining control over some of your own domestic affairs only, is utterly absurd.

As has been said many times before - just name a few of these awful EU laws (Not trade issues) that you find so disagreeable.

Jim Sillars past his sell by date years ago, he is history,  few in Scotland take him seriously. 

[vogie]

3 minutes ago, Nigel Garvie said:

You appear to forget that Scotland voted overwhelmingly to stay in the EU. Every single constituency bar none voted to stay, even Tory and Labour unionist seats. 

The idea that EU membership where you are basically part of a club within agreed (And for most of us agreeable) terms, and where you retain sovereignty, is anything remotely like being controlled by another country with you retaining control over some of your own domestic affairs only, is utterly absurd.

As has been said many times before - just name a few of these awful EU laws (Not trade issues) that you find so disagreeable.

Jim Sillars past his sell by date years ago, he is history,  few in Scotland take him seriously. 

You appear to forget that Scotland voted overwhelmingly to stay in the EU. Every single constituency bar none voted to stay, even Tory and Labour unionist seats. 

 

Sorry to disappoint you but I never forgot for one minute that Scotland voted overwhelmingly to remain within the EU, but you seem to forget that Scotland voted to remain within the UK. So does it correlate that just because Scotland may wish to leave the UK it does not automatically mean they want to rejoin the EU.

Then there is the other side of the argument, does the EU really want Scotland to rejoin, I would suggest not, does the EU really want to cause friction between themselves and the much bigger UK by allowing them to rejoin. Does every other nation want Scotland to rejoin, it may not be in their interest to allow it. So I wouldn't take it as a done deal that you will be allowed to rejoin, you may not be allowed to.

 

[RuamRudy]

2 hours ago, vogie said:

What no-one has mentioned yet, do all the Scots that want independence also want to rejoin the EU? You may be correct in your assumption that the majority of Scots may want to disengage itself from the rest of the UK (at this very moment), but that does not automatically mean that the Scots want to rejoin the EU again, it just doesn't make sense that Scotland would get back power from Westminster and then hand it straight back to Brussels. That I'm sure would put a lot of Scots from voting to leave the Union, Jim Sillars the ex deputy leader of the SNP has suggested that there would be many abstensions from voters, deciding not to vote rather than vote againgst the SNP.

 

"And Nicola Sturgeon has been dancing up and down on the ball saying, you know you're stealing powers from us.

"The irony is that if she gets these powers, she wants to hand them all back to Brussels.

"That's a massive contradiction and her policy position.

"And I don't believe that if the SNP goes forward on a platform (that says) vote for independence and we take that automatically as a going into the European Union, I don't believe she'll get a majority." :Jim Sillars

 

 

 

While there will definitely be robust discussions about whether to rejoin the EU, for most indy supporters, I believe it is a question for a later day. The permutations of voter wishes are many, but the uniting desire is to see Scotland an independent country.

 

As Nigel suggested, you are overstating the influence that Sillars has in Scotland. He was last an MP in 1992, the same year he also stepped down from the SNP leadership. At the time they had 3 MPs in total. While he has drifted towards obscurity, the party has grown on a platform of internationalism. 

[transam]

9 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

While there will definitely be robust discussions about whether to rejoin the EU, for most indy supporters, I believe it is a question for a later day. The permutations of voter wishes are many, but the uniting desire is to see Scotland an independent country.

 

As Nigel suggested, you are overstating the influence that Sillars has in Scotland. He was last an MP in 1992, the same year he also stepped down from the SNP leadership. At the time they had 3 MPs in total. While he has drifted towards obscurity, the party has grown on a platform of internationalism. 

....and ????.............................????

[vogie]

16 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

While there will definitely be robust discussions about whether to rejoin the EU, for most indy supporters, I believe it is a question for a later day. The permutations of voter wishes are many, but the uniting desire is to see Scotland an independent country.

 

As Nigel suggested, you are overstating the influence that Sillars has in Scotland. He was last an MP in 1992, the same year he also stepped down from the SNP leadership. At the time they had 3 MPs in total. While he has drifted towards obscurity, the party has grown on a platform of internationalism. 

I am not overstating anything, I just quoted what he had said. All I'm am suggesting that there will be Scots refusing to vote because they would rather remain in the Union than rejoin the EU, not all Scots want to rejoin the EU, do you disagree with this?

[RuamRudy]

12 minutes ago, vogie said:

I am not overstating anything, I just quoted what he had said. All I'm am suggesting that there will be Scots refusing to vote because they would rather remain in the Union than rejoin the EU, not all Scots want to rejoin the EU, do you disagree with this?

I am not sure I would agree with your first suggestion - independence from the UK is a discrete step in itself. I cannot envisage a situation where someone might have a strong desire for that, but would vote against it or abstain from what might be the last opportunity to ever do so, simply because of what may or may not happen further down the line.

 

I am sure that some of the yoon media will try to hammer that narrative home, however, but as I said, Euroscepticism in Scotland is not particularly virulent so I don't think it will be the magic bullet to destroy the hopes of the Yes camp.  

 

But I agree that not all Scots want to rejoin the EU, but they are very much in the minority. 

[vogie]

3 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

But I agree that not all Scots want to rejoin the EU, but they are very much in the minority

Rather than just being a minority, it is at this moment an unknown quantity, is it not?

 

But do you agree that it is not cut and dried that Scotland will be allowed to rejoin the EU.

[RuamRudy]

29 minutes ago, vogie said:

Rather than just being a minority, it is at this moment an unknown quantity, is it not?

 

What was known in 2016 was that 62% favoured Remain. Since then there been, to the best of my knowledge, no poll which showed that support wane. So all things being equal, the number against joining is probably 38% or less. 

 

29 minutes ago, vogie said:

But do you agree that it is not cut and dried that Scotland will be allowed to rejoin the EU.

I cannot see where the sticking points would be, were Scotland to choose to apply for membership.

 

Independent Scotland would get 'enthusiastic' welcome from EU, says Donald Tusk

 

 

Edited July 6, 2020 by RuamRudy

[melvinmelvin]

7 hours ago, vogie said:

You appear to forget that Scotland voted overwhelmingly to stay in the EU. Every single constituency bar none voted to stay, even Tory and Labour unionist seats. 

 

Sorry to disappoint you but I never forgot for one minute that Scotland voted overwhelmingly to remain within the EU, but you seem to forget that Scotland voted to remain within the UK. So does it correlate that just because Scotland may wish to leave the UK it does not automatically mean they want to rejoin the EU.

Then there is the other side of the argument, does the EU really want Scotland to rejoin, I would suggest not, does the EU really want to cause friction between themselves and the much bigger UK by allowing them to rejoin. Does every other nation want Scotland to rejoin, it may not be in their interest to allow it. So I wouldn't take it as a done deal that you will be allowed to rejoin, you may not be allowed to.

 

 

re your ultimate paragraph

if you look closely I guess you might find some no-wants, maybe you will also find some not-in-my-interests

 

in my view that doesn't matter and will not permanently hold off an application from a independ. Scotland

when she meets the relevant criteria

it would be politically impossible and a complete failure for EU to refuse Scotland membership

"ain't gonna happen" Spain and the Catalonians can say what they want - woun't happen

 

refusing membership will be an significant act contrary to all EU stands for

 

[transam]

13 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

What was known in 2016 was that 62% favoured Remain. Since then there been, to the best of my knowledge, no poll which showed that support wane. So all things being equal, the number against joining is probably 38% or less. 

 

I cannot see where the sticking points would be, were Scotland to choose to apply for membership.

 

Independent Scotland would get 'enthusiastic' welcome from EU, says Donald Tusk

 

 

 

[pineapple01]

My perception of Scotland is that only Billy Connoly  found the place usefull.

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, transam said:

 

If you click on the Youtube icon on the bottom right, it opens up the video in the Youtube page so you can see all the comments posted to the channel in all their joyous, civic BritNat glory.

 

Reading through them I initially I thought that it was nice to see how much our southern neighbours appreciate us and wish us well. It does sit at great odds with the suggestion that it is the Scots who are anti-English, judging by the bile and venom that these people are posting.

 

BUT - click on the Real Politics UK link immediately below the video and you can see the type of videos they post, and all the nastiness makes sense. They are posting sh!t to attract the most repellent of flies.  And the flies do not, I am certain, represent the majority. 

[evadgib]

2 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

If you click on the Youtube icon on the bottom right, it opens up the video in the Youtube page so you can see all the comments posted to the channel in all their joyous, civic BritNat glory.

 

Reading through them I initially I thought that it was nice to see how much our southern neighbours appreciate us and wish us well. It does sit at great odds with the suggestion that it is the Scots who are anti-English, judging by the bile and venom that these people are posting.

 

BUT - click on the Real Politics UK link immediately below the video and you can see the type of videos they post, and all the nastiness makes sense. They are posting sh!t to attract the most repellent of flies.  And the flies do not, I am certain, represent the majority. 

Yet an article bashing the ???????????????????????????? in a ???????????????????????????? newspaper a few days ago on these boards confirmed the exact opposite when I read the accompanying comments.

[RuamRudy]

23 minutes ago, evadgib said:

Yet an article bashing the ???????????????????????????? in a ???????????????????????????? newspaper a few days ago on these boards confirmed the exact opposite when I read the accompanying comments.

I am not sure I saw that, but assuming it is as you say, then it is same same but different - badly educated people with low self esteem, mostly unrepresentative of the majority. 

[RuamRudy]

4 hours ago, transam said:

 

Having commented on the people who commented on the video, I guess I should respond to the contents, but having listened to it, I developed a stitch in my side from laughing, hence my delay.

 

If this is truly the best argument for maintaining the union then I am afraid that it is well and truly doomed. Some Tory parish councilor who nobody has ever heard of sums up that if Scotland becomes independent, all it has to offer is "the ability to wave flags and sing songs". That is the sum total of his challenge to independence. 

 

In fact, it is literally the strongest 'argument' in the 2 minutes of guff that this video contains. No wonder the narrator used a voice disguising tool to sound so robotic - he was probably ashamed of being associated with this utter garbage.  

 

 

[Mavideol]

1 minute ago, RuamRudy said:

Having commented on the people who commented on the video, I guess I should respond to the contents, but having listened to it, I developed a stitch in my side from laughing, hence my delay.

 

If this is truly the best argument for maintaining the union then I am afraid that it is well and truly doomed. Some Tory parish councilor who nobody has ever heard of sums up that if Scotland becomes independent, all it has to offer is "the ability to wave flags and sing songs". That is the sum total of his challenge to independence. 

 

In fact, it is literally the strongest 'argument' in the 2 minutes of guff that this video contains. No wonder the narrator used a voice disguising tool to sound so robotic - he was probably ashamed of being associated with this utter garbage.  

 

 

if Scotland becomes independent UK will have another problem with it's fishing rights/quotas 555

[transam]

6 minutes ago, Mavideol said:

if Scotland becomes independent UK will have another problem with it's fishing rights/quotas 555

How about the Shetlands and Scotland......????

[RuamRudy]

4 minutes ago, Mavideol said:

if Scotland becomes independent UK will have another problem with it's fishing rights/quotas 555

No, it is all clear - the UK will cease to exist and the area London has under its jurisdiction will move from the red to the white. Although that odd little dog's leg north east of Berwick will likely be ironed out through international arbitration - the result of a rather inexplicable Labour assault on Scottish territory immediately prior to the opening of the Scottish Parliament. 

 

 

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, transam said:

How about the Shetlands and Scotland......????

I posted about the Shetlands Independence Movement a few months back - it was very exciting at the time because they had a real live political prisoner on hunger strike, protesting that Edinburgh had no legal right to the Shetlands. 

 

Isles’ independence campaigner on ‘hunger strike’ in prison

A man seeking independence for Shetland and Orkney has claimed to have gone on hunger strike in jail – saying he is a “political prisoner”.

 

It looks like this gentleman, Stuart Hill, is the principle advocate of independence for the Shetland islands. Interestingly, Mr Hill is a carrot cruncher (is that what you call people from Suffolk) so why he has decided to take up the cause of Shetlands independence when, it seems, not to interest any of the locals, is unclear, but the man is plainly a crank and Shetland is going nowhere. 

 

 

[transam]

2 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

I posted about the Shetlands Independence Movement a few months back - it was very exciting at the time because they had a real live political prisoner on hunger strike, protesting that Edinburgh had no legal right to the Shetlands. 

 

Isles’ independence campaigner on ‘hunger strike’ in prison

A man seeking independence for Shetland and Orkney has claimed to have gone on hunger strike in jail – saying he is a “political prisoner”.

 

It looks like this gentleman, Stuart Hill, is the principle advocate of independence for the Shetland islands. Interestingly, Mr Hill is a carrot cruncher (is that what you call people from Suffolk) so why he has decided to take up the cause of Shetlands independence when, it seems, not to interest any of the locals, is unclear, but the man is plainly a crank and Shetland is going nowhere. 

 

 

Well the people of Scotland voted to remain in the UK union, so what does that make you look like...?

No use bringing Brexit into it, Scotland liked the union....

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, transam said:

Well the people of Scotland voted to remain in the UK union, so what does that make you look like...?

 

Makes me look like I am with the majority. 

[473geo]

Seems to me if Scotland attain independence they will have to re negotiate entrance to the EU, apparently the EU members are not in favour of subsidising the current EU rebates Scotland benefits from being part of the UK set up

Given that an independent Scotland will then possibly not benefit from any of the savings the remainder of the UK makes on EU exit

Well as they say in Thailand - up to you

 

Edited July 7, 2020 by 473geo

[Nigel Garvie]

56 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Having commented on the people who commented on the video, I guess I should respond to the contents, but having listened to it, I developed a stitch in my side from laughing, hence my delay.

 

If this is truly the best argument for maintaining the union then I am afraid that it is well and truly doomed. Some Tory parish councilor who nobody has ever heard of sums up that if Scotland becomes independent, all it has to offer is "the ability to wave flags and sing songs". That is the sum total of his challenge to independence. 

 

In fact, it is literally the strongest 'argument' in the 2 minutes of guff that this video contains. No wonder the narrator used a voice disguising tool to sound so robotic - he was probably ashamed of being associated with this utter garbage.  

 

 

I  am always careful when I read something where the site name is "Real politics". If that's real politics god knows what unreal politics would be like! It is like the sites where they have grabbed the name "The truth about cancer/whatever", you know immediately that the truth is one thing you will never find there. 

[transam]

7 minutes ago, 473geo said:

Seems to me if Scotland attain independence they will have to re negotiate entrance to the EU, apparently the EU members are not in favour of subsidising the current EU rebates Scotland benefits from being part of the UK set up

Given that an independent Scotland will then possibly not benefit from any of the savings the remainder of the UK makes on EU exit

Well as they say in Thailand - up to you

 

 

[transam]

31 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Makes me look like I am with the majority. 

Well you ain't with Scottish King James VI are you.................????

[evadgib]

11 minutes ago, transam said:

Well you ain't with Scottish King James VI are you.................????

The Mogg had the house in fits of laughter over her 'borders' hype yesterday ????

[mrmazinkle]

On 12/13/2019 at 12:54 PM, RuamRudy said:

On what evidence to you make this claim?

shes a politician peobably

[herfiehandbag]

19 hours ago, Mavideol said:

if Scotland becomes independent UK will have another problem with it's fishing rights/quotas 555

Not really, an Independent Scotland will have control of it's own fishing waters, all they will have to do is to explain to their fishing communities why they intend to hand control over to the EU, (as they will be welcomed into the fold with open arms, within a year we are told)!

[pineapple01]

20 hours ago, Mavideol said:

if Scotland becomes independent UK will have another problem with it's fishing rights/quotas 555

Nah the Brits would just slap a tax on their Rot Gut.

[Rookiescot]

1 hour ago, pineapple01 said:

Nah the Brits would just slap a tax on their Rot Gut.

Equating England with Britain again?