Scotland must be given new independence vote - Sturgeon

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

And many more people than Alex Salmond think differently. If the UKSSR was a democracy like the EU, it wouldn’t be up to him and it wouldn’t be up to Westminster to decide what “must” happen to that referendum result. It would be up to the Scottish people. 

There is actually a case going through the Court of Session at present which has a strong possibility of confirming that the power to call a referendum actually resides with the Scottish government rather than Westminster. This is a privately funded initiative not led by the SNP or SG. If interested, you can see the twitter feed dedicated to it @PeoplesAS30 .

[vogie]

7 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

And many more people than Alex Salmond think differently. If the UKSSR was a democracy like the EU, it wouldn’t be up to him and it wouldn’t be up to Westminster to decide what “must” happen to that referendum result. It would be up to the Scottish people. 

Nicola Sturgeon said it too, you must listen to your leaders, you know it makes sense.

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, vogie said:

I will give your first paragraph the contempt it so richly deserves, suffice to say that certain sections of the SNP are not xenophobic is laughable.

 

That is like saying certain elements of any organisation don't have unpleasant elements. I am sure there are xenophobes, homophobe, racists who support the SNP, just as there are in the Tories, labour and Lib Dems. If you are looking for an organisation consisting of people without foibles, you will have a hard job.

 

4 minutes ago, vogie said:

The Scots had a yougov poll and of the 2500 Scots that were polled only 16% thought that their country was united, is that not food for thought?

Of course it is - yet Westminster has only worked to set even more people against it since 2014. Direct your frustration at those who promised so much and delivered nothing since the first referendum, not those who are outraged at having fallen for their lies.

 

6 minutes ago, vogie said:

Some members of the SNP have called for a boycott on the businesses that Boris visited whilst on his trip around Scotland, many would call that xenophobia.

Not at all - Johnson is not a country; people object to that which he represents, a corrupt and uncaring Westminster government which lies and cheats consistently, and they therefore use their freedom of choice to direct their spending towards companies with which they have commonalities. Nothing xenophobic about boycotting a company that supports that which you are fighting against. 

 

9 minutes ago, vogie said:

"Gordon Brown has claimed that Scotland is at risk of becoming “one of the west’s most divided countries”.

The former prime minister made the claim after a YouGov poll of 2,500 Scots suggested only 16% believe the country is united.

Commissioned by the Our Scottish Future thinktank, the poll also found that 47% of respondents believe Scots will always be divided on the issues of Brexit and independence."

And what? Should we sit on our hands for fear of upsetting those most comfortable?

[welovesundaysatspace]

10 minutes ago, vogie said:

Nicola Sturgeon said it too, you must listen to your leaders, you know it makes sense.

I guess you meant the Scottish people must listen to their unelected rulers in England. 

[vogie]

Just now, welovesundaysatspace said:

I guess you meant the Scottish people must listen to their unelected rulers in England. 

No I didn't mean that and I suspect that you knew that anyway, it is the SNP and not the Scots that wants to divide their nation, approx 50% at moment.

 

 

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, vogie said:

No I didn't mean that and I suspect that you knew that anyway, it is the SNP and not the Scots that wants to divide their nation, approx 50% at moment.

 

 

The majority of Scots want to manage their own affairs - it is the minority unionists who are creating the consternation. 

[vogie]

1 minute ago, RuamRudy said:

The majority of Scots want to manage their own affairs - it is the minority unionists who are creating the consternation. 

Minority 50%, biased or what, you are being very disingenuous to your fellow Scots, unionists lives matter.

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, vogie said:

Minority 50%, biased or what, you are being very disingenuous to your fellow Scots, unionists lives matter.

50% was so last year!

[rott]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

Huh? You mean that we didn't actually respect the referendum result? Is Scotland actually free of the burden of the union and I was not aware of it?

You are continually trying to undermine it, including with these thuggish clowns on the border. 

You accepted the terms of the referendum. The result was not what you wanted. Now show some respect for Scotland, Scottish Unionist voters and show some decency yourself. 

[Nigel Garvie]

14 minutes ago, rott said:

You are continually trying to undermine it, including with these thuggish clowns on the border. 

You accepted the terms of the referendum. The result was not what you wanted. Now show some respect for Scotland, Scottish Unionist voters and show some decency yourself. 

The Union as an entity, and as a partnership of countries, is dead in the water. The whole concept has been betrayed; Scotland is now controlled by the most foul, corrupt, and self serving, far right wing Westminster government we have had for 100 years or more. Ethical old style Tories with some standards,  like Clarke, Hestletine, and Major, look at Johnson, and reach for the vomit bag. No self respecting Scot wants to be ruled by the new "Gin and Jaguar belt" Tories anymore, or any Unionist party for that matter.  

"Show some decency" you must be joking.

Unionists are traitors to Scotland IMO.

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, rott said:

You are continually trying to undermine it, including with these thuggish clowns on the border. 

You accepted the terms of the referendum. The result was not what you wanted. Now show some respect for Scotland, Scottish Unionist voters and show some decency yourself. 

Is your definition of decency total acquiescence and the abandonment of principles? Should we stop running elections every 5 years because there was a decisive winner in 2019? How about you show some decency and respect the will of the majority - because it is a majority who want independence, I am afraid. Only a dwindling minority want to stick with London rule.

[RuamRudy]

54 minutes ago, Nigel Garvie said:

The Union as an entity, and as a partnership of countries, is dead in the water. The whole concept has been betrayed; Scotland is now controlled by the most foul, corrupt, and self serving, far right wing Westminster government we have had for 100 years or more. Ethical old style Tories with some standards,  like Clarke, Hestletine, and Major, look at Johnson, and reach for the vomit bag. No self respecting Scot wants to be ruled by the new "Gin and Jaguar belt" Tories anymore, or any Unionist party for that matter.  

"Show some decency" you must be joking.

Unionists are traitors to Scotland IMO.

At least there are some who are starting to speak the truth. Here is one such person who is honest and open about the government we now have. Highlights of his speech include:

 

"The public is basically correct - Tory MPs largely do not care about poor people. They don't care about the NHS."

 

 

 

[3NUMBAS]

theyve been told time and again there wont be any more votes so its null and void if they do

 

rab nesbits love child is just too thick to listen

[3NUMBAS]

theyve been told time and again there wont be any more votes so its null and void if they do

 

rab nesbits love child is just too thick to listen

[vogie]

43 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Is your definition of decency total acquiescence and the abandonment of principles? Should we stop running elections every 5 years because there was a decisive winner in 2019? How about you show some decency and respect the will of the majority - because it is a majority who want independence, I am afraid. Only a dwindling minority want to stick with London rule.

I think the majority may not be in the majority for much longer, how many have joined or voted for the SNP hoping to get back into the EU club. When it is explained to them that is only a pipe dream and that there is very little chance of you rejoining you may lose quite a few supporters. Also other members calling unionists "traitors" are hardly going to win them over to your way of thinking.

Here is SNP David Linden explaining to Andrew Neil the Scots economic plans.

 

 

Edited July 28, 2020 by vogie

[evadgib]

10 minutes ago, vogie said:

I think the majority may not be in the majority for much longer, how many have joined or voted for the SNP hoping to get back into the EU club. When it is explained to them that is only a pipe dream and that there is very little chance of you rejoining you may lose quite a few supporters. Also other members calling unionists "traitors" are hardly going to win them over to your way of thinking.

Here is SNP David Linden explaning to Andrew Neil the Scots economic plans.

 

 

Utterly clueless. I'm surprised this thread hasn't yet burned itself out the same way.

[RuamRudy]

8 minutes ago, evadgib said:

Utterly clueless. I'm surprised this thread hasn't yet burned itself out the same way.

The relentless rise in the strength of the independence movement is what is keeping this thread alive ???? 

[Rookiescot]

19 minutes ago, vogie said:

I think the majority may not be in the majority for much longer, how many have joined or voted for the SNP hoping to get back into the EU club. When it is explained to them that is only a pipe dream and that there is very little chance of you rejoining you may lose quite a few supporters. Also other members calling unionists "traitors" are hardly going to win them over to your way of thinking.

Here is SNP David Linden explaning to Andrew Neil the Scots economic plans.

 

 

But calling remainers traitors is perfectly acceptable?

You seem to keep forgetting that the MAJORITY in Scotland voted to remain in the EU.

[vogie]

1 minute ago, Rookiescot said:

But calling remainers traitors is perfectly acceptable?

You seem to keep forgetting that the MAJORITY in Scotland voted to remain in the EU.

You seem to forget that a MAJORITY in Scotland voted to remain in the United Kingdom.

[Rookiescot]

7 minutes ago, vogie said:

You seem to forget that a MAJORITY in Scotland voted to remain in the United Kingdom.

Yes in 2014. A lot has happened since then.

The promises made by Better Together have not been delivered. Indeed the Conservative government in Westminster has actually gone out of its way to damage Scotland and the democracy in it.

English votes for English laws. Basically prevents any MP from a Scottish constituency holding high office.

A Scottish affairs committee thats full of English MP's?

The repatriation of powers which were devolved to the EU being brought back to Westminster rather than the Scottish parliament?

Being torn out of the EU against our will just because of English nationalism?

Yeah a lot has happened since 2014. Hence the majority of Scots now want independence.

What would you do to convince Scots to stay? What powers would you give to Scotland to remain part of the UK? What cost would you put on retaining the union?

  

[7by7]

18 hours ago, rott said:

It will not happen, but just say there was another referendum and leavers won would you have another vote in a few years to placate the Unionists.?

 

No.? Thought not. 

 

 

 

In 2014 55.3% of voters voted to remain part of a United Kingdom which was a member of the EU.

 

But the situation in 2014 is not the same as today because of Brexit. In 2016 62.0% of Scottish voters voted to remain in the EU.

 

In 2014 there was not even the slightest hint that making the choice to remain part of the UK meant leaving the EU. 

 

That alone makes the argument for Scots to be given the choice again irrefutable.

[7by7]

7 hours ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

<snip>

And except that it’s not fiction but a fact that the UK’s head of state is unelected.

It is also a fact that she has no real political power; and her mum was Scottish!

[welovesundaysatspace]

2 hours ago, vogie said:

No I didn't mean that and I suspect that you knew that anyway, it is the SNP and not the Scots that wants to divide their nation, approx 50% at moment.

Ah, Brexiteers telling what the people want. Classic! Btw, what were the SNP’s results in the last election again? 

If the UKSSR would be so confident about its members not running away, it would give them the right to decide about their fate their own, rather than keeping them as vassals. 

[evadgib]

32 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

The relentless rise in the strength of the independence movement is what is keeping this thread alive ???? 

Wishful thinking absent just about everywhere beyond these boards. Having explained the quickest way Krankie's lot can achieve independence I won't bother doing so again. 

[7by7]

Those arguing against a second Scottish independence referendum are the same lot who are arguing against a referendum on the final Brexit deal.

 

They don't want either for the same reason: fear.

 

Fear that they will lose.

 

If they are so sure that they are right, then they would have nothing to fear from either vote.

 

 

[vogie]

27 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Yes in 2014. A lot has happened since then.

The promises made by Better Together have not been delivered. Indeed the Conservative government in Westminster has actually gone out of its way to damage Scotland and the democracy in it.

English votes for English laws. Basically prevents any MP from a Scottish constituency holding high office.

A Scottish affairs committee thats full of English MP's?

The repatriation of powers which were devolved to the EU being brought back to Westminster rather than the Scottish parliament?

Being torn out of the EU against our will just because of English nationalism?

Yeah a lot has happened since 2014. Hence the majority of Scots now want independence.

What would you do to convince Scots to stay? What powers would you give to Scotland to remain part of the UK? What cost would you put on retaining the union?

  

Yes in 2014. A lot has happened since then.

Yes a lot has happened since then, but what has not happened is a generation span, listen to your leaders for once, they know better than you Rookie.

 

You were not torn out of anything, the UK voted to leave, accept it and stop thinking you are a special case, you're not, we voted as one.

 

I don't have to do anything to convince the Scots to stay because you aint going anywhere, you can't, you don't meet the EUs most stringent criteria.

 

I think that the SNP is in such a mess it doesn't realise the powers it has got.

 

 

 

 

[stevenl]

What would be the problem with Scotland leaving the UK?

[melvinmelvin]

5 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

Those arguing against a second Scottish independence referendum are the same lot who are arguing against a referendum on the final Brexit deal.

 

They don't want either for the same reason: fear.

 

Fear that they will lose.

 

If they are so sure that they are right, then they would have nothing to fear from either vote.

 

 

 

can't say I see that those two votes are comparable at all - two different animals to me

 

(but I'm not a jock - I only drink made in Scotland)

 

 

[vogie]

19 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Ah, Brexiteers telling what the people want. Classic! Btw, what were the SNP’s results in the last election again? 

If the UKSSR would be so confident about its members not running away, it would give them the right to decide about their fate their own, rather than keeping them as vassals. 

The Scots decided their own fate in 2014 and it is the last time I'm telling you, it is just not sinking in, is it.

[welovesundaysatspace]

Just now, vogie said:

The Scots decided their own fate in 2014 and it is the last time I'm telling you, it is just not sinking in, is it.

The Scots don’t have and never had the right to call an independence referendum and declare independence. They cannot decide their own fate. They are a vassal state of the failing UKSSR. It’s just not sinking in, is it?