UK PM Johnson cannot keep Scotland in union against its will: Sturgeon

[melvinmelvin]

47 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Without the request, there cannot be the denial. The denial accomplishes 2 things - firstly, a party with 10% of MPs in Scotland is dictating the rules - that will obviously go down badly with the masses, but more importantly, without the denial, the legal challenges cannot commence. Next step will, I am sure, be the courts. The SG has had 3 years to prepare their case. I suspect that it is very compelling.

 

this YES or NO to the request for another referendum,

would that be a PM utterance or a parliament utterance?

 

[RuamRudy]

7 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

this YES or NO to the request for another referendum,

would that be a PM utterance or a parliament utterance?

 

Good question, and to be honest, I wasn't sure. I presume it is for the Gov to issue the Section 30 order which is used to temporarily transfer reserved powers to Scotland. This BBC article suggest that to be the case.

 

Scottish independence: What is a section 30 order?

[melvinmelvin]

36 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Good question, and to be honest, I wasn't sure. I presume it is for the Gov to issue the Section 30 order which is used to temporarily transfer reserved powers to Scotland. This BBC article suggest that to be the case.

 

Scottish independence: What is a section 30 order?

 

an interesting read, ta

 

the text is not clear on this issue it actually says both

 

however,

I noted another interesting pot (piece of text) in that article,

it is not easy to go down the path of courts to sort this referendum issue

not really any specific point of law to challenge for Sturgeon

 

whats left?

time, yes

massive demonstrations, jocks climbing Hadrian and swarming into the lowlands shouting for ind.

- such will have an effect with the UK public and also abroad, but it must be kept up over long

- periods of time

controlled inobediance, going ahead with a ref. tabling it as decisive, might be challenged

- by the lowlanders in the courts

 

if, I stress if, there is massive support for ind. in Scotland I cannot see many good reasons for

refusing ind. over time

I can see that BJ can have some valid reasons for NAYing it now and for the next say 4-5 years

 

cheers (2nd beer and nip now)

 

Edited December 19, 2019 by melvinmelvin
typo

[melvinmelvin]

an related issue;

 

earlier this year I did read two sizeable articles (in different MSM) about political activities up north

ie on the islands north of John O'Groat, (Shet and Orkn)

 

apparaently there are growing political activities there,

my impression was that the activists were not happy with Westminster and not happy with Taigh an Ròid,

ie they leaned towards going it alone

 

interesting world

 

(form a new sovereign state? (maybe Faroe Islands included - you can have those islands cheap from Denmark))

 

(dunno, but it seems to me that striving for independence and striving for coalitions

like EEC/EU/EFTA/COMECON/NAFTA etc etc goes in waves,

its a bit like long hair/short hair and clean shaven/bearded)

 

 

[cleopatra2]

3 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

this YES or NO to the request for another referendum,

would that be a PM utterance or a parliament utterance?

 

The 2014 referendum section 30 order was debated and approved by both HoC and HoL alongside the Scottish Parliament

[Neeranam]

On 12/16/2019 at 7:11 AM, mercman24 said:

Scotland is as bad as Greece, bancrupt, with a debt of £2500 per head, only being kept afloat by Westminster, if they did get independance the EU would not have them back, her thinking is in the Corbyn league, she is on an ego trip. refer back to her recent tv interview, for the facts, she evaded all the pertinent questions

Nonsense. Scotland would be like Norway, the richest country in Europe if they hadn't given all the oil revenue to the spongers in England.

Most of us hate the English, but were colonized against our will.

[richard_smith237]

14 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Nonsense. Scotland would be like Norway, the richest country in Europe if they hadn't given all the oil revenue to the spongers in England.

Most of us hate the English, but were colonized against our will.

Tosh... Scotland’s dept vs GDP is insufficient to keep it afloat even with all the North Sea oil. 
 

Alone, Scotland cannot meet the requirements to enter the EU. 
 

I know a lot of intelligent, well educated, well read and quite frankly smart as flook sweatys - Not one of them fancies independence.

 

This Independence Jacobite nonsense is not going to bring the kilt back to the high street.

 

Scotland, be proud of your heritage, but don’t use your hate of history [the English] to isolate your nation. You are nothing to the EU & remember, France used you in the past to fight the UK on a double front, this is the same political double edge you are being used today.

 

England, Wales & Northern Ireland don’t need Scotland. Even with North Sea Oil (a lot of which is also in England waters),  Scotland is too small to prosper without a big brother, it will struggle like poorer small nations, education will suffer, national health (in Scotland) will suffer, Scotland will get into more debt, the return to GB will then be a painful one. 

 

Edited December 19, 2019 by richard_smith237

[RuamRudy]

31 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Nonsense. Scotland would be like Norway, the richest country in Europe if they hadn't given all the oil revenue to the spongers in England.

Most of us hate the English, but were colonized against our will.

Hopefully a typo in your post, but otherwise I have to disagree. While I speak for nobody but myself, I am confident in saying that most of us do Not hate the English. 

[RuamRudy]

22 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

Tosh... Scotland’s dept vs GDP is insufficient to keep it afloat even with all the North Sea oil. 
 

Alone, Scotland cannot meet the requirements to enter the EU. 
 

I know a lot of intelligent, well educated, well read and quite frankly smart as flook sweatys - Not one of them fancies independence.

 

This Independence Jacobite nonsense is not going to bring the kilt back to the high street.

 

Scotland, be proud of your heritage, but don’t use your hate of history [the English] to isolate your nation. You are nothing to the EU & remember, France used you in the past to fight the UK on a double front, this is the same political double edge you are being used today.

 

England, Wales & Northern Ireland don’t need Scotland. Even with North Sea Oil (a lot of which is also in England waters),  Scotland is too small to prosper without a big brother, it will struggle like poorer small nations, education will suffer, national health (in Scotland) will suffer, Scotland will get into more debt, the return to GB will then be a painful one. 

 

Poorer small nations like Norway, Sweden, New Zealand etc? 

 

Can you help me understand why, if Scotland is such a drain on the rUK finances, it keeps subsidising us? 

 

Which North Sea oil field are in English waters? 

Edited December 19, 2019 by RuamRudy

[Neeranam]

1 hour ago, richard_smith237 said:

Tosh... Scotland’s dept vs GDP is insufficient to keep it afloat even with all the North Sea oil. 
 

Alone, Scotland cannot meet the requirements to enter the EU. 
 

I know a lot of intelligent, well educated, well read and quite frankly smart as flook sweatys - Not one of them fancies independence.

 

This Independence Jacobite nonsense is not going to bring the kilt back to the high street.

 

Scotland, be proud of your heritage, but don’t use your hate of history [the English] to isolate your nation. You are nothing to the EU & remember, France used you in the past to fight the UK on a double front, this is the same political double edge you are being used today.

 

England, Wales & Northern Ireland don’t need Scotland. Even with North Sea Oil (a lot of which is also in England waters),  Scotland is too small to prosper without a big brother, it will struggle like poorer small nations, education will suffer, national health (in Scotland) will suffer, Scotland will get into more debt, the return to GB will then be a painful one. 

 

I used the past tense. We have given all the oil money already, over the last  few decades. 

If we HADN'T been forced to give that to England, would be just like Norway, no, richer as w have whiskey, golf etc.

During the referendum, the BBC even held back information regarding a newly found oil reserve.

Thieving c!*#s.

 

Do you know the history? If anyone did to England what England did to Scotland, you would hate then too.

[melvinmelvin]

2 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Poorer small nations like Norway, Sweden, New Zealand etc? 

 

Can you help me understand why, if Scotland is such a drain on the rUK finances, it keeps subsidising us? 

 

Which North Sea oil field are in English waters? 

to your list of states you can add Denmark, Holy See, Luxembourg, Liechtenstein, Iceland, Monaco,

San Marino, Andorra as well as a handfull of Yugoslavia leftovers ...

 

[vogie]

6 hours ago, Neeranam said:

Nonsense. Scotland would be like Norway, the richest country in Europe if they hadn't given all the oil revenue to the spongers in England.

Most of us hate the English, but were colonized against our will.

It is not news to us that the SNP hates the English but your confirmation is most welcome, thank you.

[Rookiescot]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

It is not news to us that the SNP hates the English but your confirmation is most welcome, thank you.

Not true mate.

You will be hard pressed to find any anti English sentiment in the SNP or the general population in Scotland. Most of us have family members/friends and work colleagues who are from south of the border. 

There are of course a few vocal idiots but every country has its share of those.

 

The issue is with Westminster and in particular Conservative governments. The last time Scotland voted Conservative was 1955 or something. Since then it has returned Labour or more recently SNP majorities. As I said before. Scotland and England seem to want different things. There is no point in keeping a union going if neither party is happy in it.

 

[vogie]

1 hour ago, Rookiescot said:

Not true mate.

You will be hard pressed to find any anti English sentiment in the SNP or the general population in Scotland. Most of us have family members/friends and work colleagues who are from south of the border. 

There are of course a few vocal idiots but every country has its share of those.

 

The issue is with Westminster and in particular Conservative governments. The last time Scotland voted Conservative was 1955 or something. Since then it has returned Labour or more recently SNP majorities. As I said before. Scotland and England seem to want different things. There is no point in keeping a union going if neither party is happy in it.

 

Of course I knew that, If he hadn't embarrassed himself enough I was trying to embarrass him a little more. If he wasn't drunk when he wrote that he seriously needs some sort of councilling, bearing grudges for actions that happened nearly 300 years ago is not healthly, but I hope he wears the chip on his shoulder with pride.????

BTW, my great great great grandfather was at the Battle of Culloden, he wasn't fighting, he just happened to be camping in the next field.

Edited December 20, 2019 by vogie

[RuamRudy]

3 hours ago, vogie said:

It is not news to us that the SNP hates the English but your confirmation is most welcome, thank you.

Post deleted as addressed in #317. 

Edited December 20, 2019 by RuamRudy

[Neeranam]

3 hours ago, vogie said:

It is not news to us that the SNP hates the English but your confirmation is most welcome, thank you.

I don't think you actually realize how much many of us dislike the English, especially in certain areas. I come from Royal Deeside, where English toffs, including royalty have raised the price of property by buying their holiday homes that the average guy can't afford to live there any more. 

An English author of Harry Potter even got to vote on the referendum, where I couldn't. My daughter has to pay university fees as foreign student in Scotland whereas rich <deleted> like Prince bloody William didn't.

Ha, I remember playing rugby against Gordonstoun and Prince Edward, and trust me, we were all out to hurt another English <deleted>.

Maggie Thatcher using us a poll tax guinea pigs, nuclear dumps. I could go on and on.

Of course, there are many English individuals we like, but as a country, certainly not. I wonder why they stopped the Scotland England annual football game?

[Neeranam]

8 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Hopefully a typo in your post, but otherwise I have to disagree. While I speak for nobody but myself, I am confident in saying that most of us do Not hate the English. 

 

[VocalNeal]

4 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

raised the price of property by buying their holiday homes that the average guy can't afford to live there any more. 

I thought that was the fading oil boom?

[vogie]

16 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

I don't think you actually realize how much many of us dislike the English, especially in certain areas. I come from Royal Deeside, where English toffs, including royalty have raised the price of property by buying their holiday homes that the average guy can't afford to live there any more. 

An English author of Harry Potter even got to vote on the referendum, where I couldn't. My daughter has to pay university fees as foreign student in Scotland whereas rich <deleted> like Prince bloody William didn't.

Ha, I remember playing rugby against Gordonstoun and Prince Edward, and trust me, we were all out to hurt another English <deleted>.

Maggie Thatcher using us a poll tax guinea pigs, nuclear dumps. I could go on and on.

Of course, there are many English individuals we like, but as a country, certainly not. I wonder why they stopped the Scotland England annual football game?

I believe that xenophobia is treatable.

Edited December 20, 2019 by vogie

[Rookiescot]

4 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

I don't think you actually realize how much many of us dislike the English, especially in certain areas. I come from Royal Deeside, where English toffs, including royalty have raised the price of property by buying their holiday homes that the average guy can't afford to live there any more. 

An English author of Harry Potter even got to vote on the referendum, where I couldn't. My daughter has to pay university fees as foreign student in Scotland whereas rich <deleted> like Prince bloody William didn't.

Ha, I remember playing rugby against Gordonstoun and Prince Edward, and trust me, we were all out to hurt another English <deleted>.

Maggie Thatcher using us a poll tax guinea pigs, nuclear dumps. I could go on and on.

Of course, there are many English individuals we like, but as a country, certainly not. I wonder why they stopped the Scotland England annual football game?

I have never lived anywhere near Royal Deeside. However I suspect you are overplaying the anti English sentiment there given they have just elected a conservative MP. Conservatives in Scotland are unionists. Unionists will not be anti English.

Playing rugby against Gordonstoun I would be looking to smash the toffs regardless of where they were born.

You then go on to complain about Thatcher. I agree. Not exactly a popular figure in Scotland but she was not and never will be the English people. No politician is.

[JonnyF]

8 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

I don't think you actually realize how much many of us dislike the English, especially in certain areas. I come from Royal Deeside, where English toffs, including royalty have raised the price of property by buying their holiday homes that the average guy can't afford to live there any more. 

An English author of Harry Potter even got to vote on the referendum, where I couldn't. My daughter has to pay university fees as foreign student in Scotland whereas rich <deleted> like Prince bloody William didn't.

Ha, I remember playing rugby against Gordonstoun and Prince Edward, and trust me, we were all out to hurt another English <deleted>.

Maggie Thatcher using us a poll tax guinea pigs, nuclear dumps. I could go on and on.

Of course, there are many English individuals we like, but as a country, certainly not. I wonder why they stopped the Scotland England annual football game?

I worked there for a while and I'm well aware how much the Scots dislike the English. Scottish nationalism is the same as any other form of nationalism, it doesn't suddenly smell of roses because you paint it's face blue and put a kilt on it.

 

I'm not bothered about the SNP's extreme nationalism and anti English sentiment, I only object to the denial of it's existence.

 

 

 

[JohnB1945]

Interesting theory going around. Boris really wants Scottish independence, as this would keep Westminster safe for the Tories for decades. But a vote at present is still iffy, according to the polls. So he will delay, and think up new ways of p***ing the Scots off, until a leave vote is certain, and then reluctantly give in.  Same with Northern Ireland - let them join the South.

 

Obvious an England-Wales without Scotland or N Ireland is diminished compared to UK, but Johnson doesn't care if it has the international standing of Andorra as long as he is PM. 

 

Almost believable?

[androokery]

On 12/16/2019 at 11:03 AM, Baerboxer said:

 

If the result of that referendum had been Yes to independence, you can rest assured that Salmond and Sturgeon would have tried to make sure it was once in a generation! And they would have tried to concoct rules to make sure it could never be challenged.

 

National socialists only support democracy when they get the result they want.

If people arguing for Scottish independence from UK are branded as national socialists (i.e. nazis), wouldn’t the same be true for people arguing for UK independence from EU?

 

I know it hurts when your own arguments are being used against you. 

[JonnyF]

3 minutes ago, John Begg said:

Interesting theory going around. Boris really wants Scottish independence, as this would keep Westminster safe for the Tories for decades. But a vote at present is still iffy, according to the polls. So he will delay, and think up new ways of p***ing the Scots off, until a leave vote is certain, and then reluctantly give in.  Same with Northern Ireland - let them join the South.

 

Obvious an England-Wales without Scotland or N Ireland is diminished compared to UK, but Johnson doesn't care if it has the international standing of Andorra as long as he is PM. 

 

Almost believable?

Given Labour's current state, he doesn't need Scotland to leave the UK to stay for decades. The SNP could take every single seat in Scotland and he'd still have a massive majority.

 

Given that the Tories official name is The Conservative and Unionist party I really doubt he wants to get rid of them. He'd rather rule a bigger UK than a smaller one, even if he has to put up with Sturgeon yapping about another referendum every time the weather changes.

[JonnyF]

5 minutes ago, androokery said:

If people arguing for Scottish independence from UK are branded as national socialists (i.e. nazis), wouldn’t the same be true for people arguing for UK independence from EU?

 

I know it hurts when your own arguments are being used against you. 

Nothing wrong with the Scots wanting independence. The issue is wanting to re-run the referendum because they lost. UK leavers also opposed re-running the EU referendum. 

 

If there is any inconsistency it's Scottish nationalists calling UK leavers racist, Xenophobic, little Englanders etc. while claiming that their brand of nationalism and desire for independence smells of roses. 

[RuamRudy]

11 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

I worked there for a while and I'm well aware how much the Scots dislike the English. Scottish nationalism is the same as any other form of nationalism, it doesn't suddenly smell of roses because you paint it's face blue and put a kilt on it.

 

I'm not bothered about the SNP's extreme nationalism and anti English sentiment, I only object to the denial of it's existence.

 

 

 

Where is the SNP in that photo? Can you provide clear evidence of anti-English sentiment from the SNP rather than innuendo?

[Rookiescot]

12 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

I worked there for a while and I'm well aware how much the Scots dislike the English. Scottish nationalism is the same as any other form of nationalism, it doesn't suddenly smell of roses because you paint it's face blue and put a kilt on it.

 

I'm not bothered about the SNP's extreme nationalism and anti English sentiment, I only object to the denial of it's existence.

 

 

 

 

Sorry you were saying something?

[JonnyF]

3 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Where is the SNP in that photo? Can you provide clear evidence of anti-English sentiment from the SNP rather than innuendo?

Sturgeon pretty much accepts here that these people are SNP supporters.

 

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/nicola-sturgeon-no-place-for-anti-english-sentiment-in-the-snp-1-4987799

 

Are you suggesting these people are voting for Conservatives?

[RuamRudy]

33 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

I don't think you actually realize how much many of us dislike the English, especially in certain areas. I come from Royal Deeside, where English toffs, including royalty have raised the price of property by buying their holiday homes that the average guy can't afford to live there any more. 

An English author of Harry Potter even got to vote on the referendum, where I couldn't. My daughter has to pay university fees as foreign student in Scotland whereas rich <deleted> like Prince bloody William didn't.

Ha, I remember playing rugby against Gordonstoun and Prince Edward, and trust me, we were all out to hurt another English <deleted>.

Maggie Thatcher using us a poll tax guinea pigs, nuclear dumps. I could go on and on.

Of course, there are many English individuals we like, but as a country, certainly not. I wonder why they stopped the Scotland England annual football game?

Scottish toffs or English toffs - their country of birth is irrelevant. The actions of Lord Haw Haw or whomever are no more the responsibility of the average English person than they are of you or me. 

 

JK Rowling had a vote in the referendum because she lived, worked and paid taxes in Scotland. I don't agree with her politics but she had every right to participate in the referendum. 

[JonnyF]

5 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

 

Sorry you were saying something?

Yes I was.

 

Some English people (living in Scotland and also outside Scotland) want Scotland to leave the UK. That doesn't contradict my point that there is anti English sentiment among Scots in Scotland and in the SNP. We have Scots on this very forum confirming it.