UK PM Johnson cannot keep Scotland in union against its will: Sturgeon

[jayboy]

20 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

So, getting back to the matters at hand, yesterday Holyrood voted 68-54 in favour of the Referendum (Scotland) Bill, which sets out general rules for the conduct of referendums that are within the competency of the Scottish parliament. This was followed by the ScotGov publishing a paper highlighting the case for another referendum. 

 

"In a statement at her official Bute House residence, she said: "We are therefore today calling for the UK government to negotiate and agree the transfer of power that would put beyond doubt the Scottish Parliament's right to legislate for a referendum on independence.

"I anticipate that in the short term we will simply hear a restatement of the UK government's opposition. But they should be under no illusion that this will be an end of the matter.""

 

She has firmly put the ball into Westminster's court - either they concede and allow a referendum (unlikely) or they have to explicitly state that they refuse to consent to the will of Scottish MSPs in relation to self-determination - a massive propaganda coup for the SNP.

2019 General Election in Scotland

 

Votes for independence through SNP   1,242,838

 

Votes for non nationalist parties          1,516,225

 

Doesn't look much of a mandate for the SNP

[RuamRudy]

20 minutes ago, vogie said:

You are not being held in our Union against your will, remember you had a vote on it and the Scottish people decided they prefered to be in our Union, there is evidence to say that still is the case.

If I can just re-iterate, it is only the Scots Nationalists that want yet another referendum, the majority of the Scots do not. Would it be fair to say that the minority trying to dictate to the majority is vastly unfair and indeed unjust.

The SNP are demanding a referendum, not immediate independence. They want to achieve independence via a simple majority. 

 

Material circumstances have changed since 2014. The Northern Ireland Act 1998 specifies a time period of a minimum of 7 years between border polls - that seems a fair way to regulate equivalent pushes elsewhere, should there be a desire to do so. 

[RuamRudy]

19 minutes ago, jayboy said:

2019 General Election in Scotland

 

Votes for independence through SNP   1,242,838

 

Votes for non nationalist parties          1,516,225

 

Doesn't look much of a mandate for the SNP

2019 General election - theSNP got 45% of all Scottish votes. The Conservative Party got 43% of all UK votes, and a pathetic 25% of Scottish votes. Looks like the SNP has greater mandate than the tories.

[vogie]

1 minute ago, RuamRudy said:

The SNP are demanding a referendum, not immediate independence. They want to achieve independence via a simple majority. 

 

Material circumstances have changed since 2014. The Northern Ireland Act 1998 specifies a time period of a minimum of 7 years between border polls - that seems a fair way to regulate equivalent pushes elsewhere, should there be a desire to do so. 

I hear what you and the SNP are saying RR, but the SNP have no right to dictate to the majorty of Scots that don't want another referendum. Referendums are not like poppy day that come around every year, they are a once in a generation/lifetime occurance.

Material circumstances may have changed, but the Scots thinking on another referendum hasn't.

[vogie]

7 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

2019 General election - theSNP got 45% of all Scottish votes. The Conservative Party got 43% of all UK votes, and a pathetic 25% of Scottish votes. Looks like the SNP has greater mandate than the tories.

But in the 2017 election the SNP got 49% of the votes, on that basis it would be fair to say that the enthusiasm for another referendum has fallen.

[stevenl]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

I would disagree - many Brexiteers can recall pre-EU days. Scotland before the union is only known through history books. 

 

Independence minded Scots want the same as most people elsewhere - a fairer, more accountable government which works to better the lives of all.

 

We haven't had one of those in the UK in the last 15 years, and each passing day the prospect of the majority bloc of the electorate choosing that seems more and more remote. Time to go our own way rather than continue to be worn down by the feckless, corrupt and nasty bunch our neighbours insist on foisting upon us. 

I have the feeling the 2 are not necessarily connected. It doesn't have to be something you know, just nostalgia, if you will projected through independence. Sounds like your reasons are different, but as I said, 'part of', will IMO be applicable to quite a few.

[jayboy]

21 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

2019 General election - theSNP got 45% of all Scottish votes. The Conservative Party got 43% of all UK votes, and a pathetic 25% of Scottish votes. Looks like the SNP has greater mandate than the tories.

Nobody is suggesting the Tories are popular in Scotland, far from it.The point arising from the figures I quoted is just this - the SNP has no mandate for independence.It is nevertheless the leading party in Scotland though its MPs have been grossly inflated by the first past the post system.

[RuamRudy]

14 minutes ago, vogie said:

But in the 2017 election the SNP got 49% of the votes, on that basis it would be fair to say that the enthusiasm for another referendum has fallen.

Prior to Brexit, were there any polls which suggested majority support for it? The tories have never achieved more than 40-something percent of the popular vote in any election so using your logic, we should never have had the Brexit vote.

[stevenl]

24 minutes ago, vogie said:

I hear what you and the SNP are saying RR, but the SNP have no right to dictate to the majorty of Scots that don't want another referendum. Referendums are not like poppy day that come around every year, they are a once in a generation/lifetime occurance.

Material circumstances may have changed, but the Scots thinking on another referendum hasn't.

"the SNP have no right to dictate to the majorty of Scots that don't want another referendum"

Isn't that what a referendum is for, to not dictate  what people don't want.

[RuamRudy]

6 minutes ago, stevenl said:

I have the feeling the 2 are not necessarily connected. It doesn't have to be something you know, just nostalgia, if you will projected through independence. Sounds like your reasons are different, but as I said, 'part of', will IMO be applicable to quite a few.

If you look at the demographics, 18-25 year olds are by far the greatest supporters of independence. There are also, I presume, the most international in outlook and the most embracing of global youth culture. They are the driver of independence.

 

Scots have, for decades, been beset by self doubt and a lack of confidence. We still suffer from it today - even on these threads we see Scots challenge the notion of independence because they believe us 'too wee, too poor, too stupid' to stand alone, 

 

I see that lack of confidence diminish as more and more young people recognise that we have the ability and the resources to forge our own path, and that the best place to make the decisions which impact Scotland at a fundamental level is within Scotland.

[vogie]

6 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Prior to Brexit, were there any polls which suggested majority support for it? The tories have never achieved more than 40-something percent of the popular vote in any election so using your logic, we should never have had the Brexit vote.

What I'm saying is that the SNP got less votes in this election than they did in the 2017 election, I do not wish to compare apples and oranges, which is what you appear to be doing.

[RuamRudy]

10 minutes ago, jayboy said:

Nobody is suggesting the Tories are popular in Scotland, far from it.The point arising from the figures I quoted is just this - the SNP has no mandate for independence.It is nevertheless the leading party in Scotland though its MPs have been grossly inflated by the first past the post system.

But they are no asking for independence; only the right to offer that to the people of Scotland. 

 

The SNP has been consistent in its support of electoral reform, actively campaigning for PR with the Lib Dems during that referendum. But FPTP is the system employed so they are as entitled to enjoy the fruits of it as any other party, much as they would be equally penalised if the votes were marginally different. 

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, vogie said:

What I'm saying is that the SNP got less votes in this election than they did in the 2017 election, I do not wish to compare apples and oranges, which is what you appear to be doing.

I am suggesting equivalency - the apples and pears is you expecting the SNP to play to a different set of rules to those which enabled Brexit.

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

If you look at the demographics, 18-25 year olds are by far the greatest supporters of independence. There are also, I presume, the most international in outlook and the most embracing of global youth culture. They are the driver of independence.

 

Ha ha, that's one way of looking at it. ????????????????

[Rookiescot]

Dont see why unionists fear another independence referendum.

If, as they claim, the union is a wonderful thing, they should have no problem convincing the majority of Scots that remaining is the best option.

This would kill demands for independence for the next 30 years.

 

So come on guys lets get the referendum done. 

[transam]

9 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

If you look at the demographics, 18-25 year olds are by far the greatest supporters of independence. There are also, I presume, the most international in outlook and the most embracing of global youth culture. They are the driver of independence.

 

Scots have, for decades, been beset by self doubt and a lack of confidence. We still suffer from it today - even on these threads we see Scots challenge the notion of independence because they believe us 'too wee, too poor, too stupid' to stand alone, 

 

I see that lack of confidence diminish as more and more young people recognise that we have the ability and the resources to forge our own path, and that the best place to make the decisions which impact Scotland at a fundamental level is within Scotland.

They are in their "GRRRRR" years, shield thumpers....????

Their elders are out of that stage....????

[jayboy]

Just now, RuamRudy said:

But they are no asking for independence; only the right to offer that to the people of Scotland. 

 

The SNP has been consistent in its support of electoral reform, actively campaigning for PR with the Lib Dems during that referendum. But FPTP is the system employed so they are as entitled to enjoy the fruits of it as any other party, much as they would be equally penalised if the votes were marginally different. 

I'm not sure whether to take your first sentence seriously.Are you suggesting that somehow the SNP would stay neutral in a referendum? It's slightly irrelevant  because there is no massive demand in Scotland for a referendum any time soon, not that Boris Johnson would permit one anyway.

 

Actually the SNP does benefit from FPTP to a greater extent than other parties, not least because there are so many marginal seats in Scotland. You are right that the SNP has supported electoral reform though - since this would lose them seats - it's done somewhat cynically in the knowledge it will never happen.

 

 

[RuamRudy]

5 minutes ago, jayboy said:

I'm not sure whether to take your first sentence seriously.Are you suggesting that somehow the SNP would stay neutral in a referendum?

Of course not, but I never suggested that. In order to effectively campaign, first there needs to be a referendum. That is step 1.

 

11 minutes ago, jayboy said:

It's slightly irrelevant  because there is no massive demand in Scotland for a referendum any time soon,

What constitutes massive demand in your book? 

 

12 minutes ago, jayboy said:

Actually the SNP does benefit from FPTP to a greater extent than other parties, not least because there are so many marginal seats in Scotland.

By the same premise, they could equally be hurt on those marginals. It is a risky strategy to bank your electoral success solely upon resolute partisanship of the voters. 

 

14 minutes ago, jayboy said:

You are right that the SNP has supported electoral reform though - since this would lose them seats - it's done somewhat cynically in the knowledge it will never happen.

 

I guess they are in a no-win situation here then; damned if they do, damned if they don't. Cynical, you say?

[Nigel Garvie]

14 hours ago, vogie said:

Actually you are wrong, but please check it out yourself.

 

Incidentally cul de sac means dead end street, literally 'bottom of a sack' from the latin culus meaning bottom, can you see where I'm coming from here?

I did check it out, I was correct. ...."Xenos (Greek: ξένος, xénos, plural xenoi) is a word used in the Greek language from Homer onwards. The most standard definition is "stranger". However, the word, itself, can be interpreted to mean different things based upon context, author and period of writing/speaking, signifying such divergent concepts as "enemy" or "stranger", a particular hostile interpretation, all the way to "guest friend"' one of the most hallowed concepts in the cultural rules of Greek hospitality."

 

Incidentally cul de sac means dead end street, literally 'bottom of a sack' from the latin culus meaning bottom, can you see where I'm coming from here? ................Sorry, can't be arsed to work it out!

[vogie]

3 minutes ago, Nigel Garvie said:

I did check it out, I was correct. ...."Xenos (Greek: ξένος, xénos, plural xenoi) is a word used in the Greek language from Homer onwards. The most standard definition is "stranger". However, the word, itself, can be interpreted to mean different things based upon context, author and period of writing/speaking, signifying such divergent concepts as "enemy" or "stranger", a particular hostile interpretation, all the way to "guest friend"' one of the most hallowed concepts in the cultural rules of Greek hospitality."

 

Incidentally cul de sac means dead end street, literally 'bottom of a sack' from the latin culus meaning bottom, can you see where I'm coming from here? ................Sorry, can't be arsed to work it out!

If you so wish to interpret Greek literally that is entirely your choice. But someone who says he hates another nation is xenophobic, how would you describe them?

[Rookiescot]

8 minutes ago, vogie said:

If you so wish to interpret Greek literally that is entirely your choice. But someone who says he hates another nation is xenophobic, how would you describe them?

Using a somewhat crude description of a body part ????

[URMySunshine]

1 hour ago, Rookiescot said:

Dont see why unionists fear another independence referendum.

If, as they claim, the union is a wonderful thing, they should have no problem convincing the majority of Scots that remaining is the best option.

This would kill demands for independence for the next 30 years.

 

So come on guys lets get the referendum done. 

Boris will only let you have a referendum if he thinks No would walk it since I don't think that will happen then why should he add to the cauldron more issues when Brexit is more than enough to be going on with for the moment. And since he owes nothing electrorally to the Scots seeing impotent outrage from them will play well to his new Tories in the north and help him consolidate his power. Unless the Scots are prepared to have ongoing mass civil disobedience north of the border a la Catalans then I think you can wave goodbye to indyref2 for the remainder of the parliament. Until Ms Sturgeon changes her tune I would expect the Scots to be punished for their continuing impertinence through generous levys and the like. Expect the Barnett formula to be examined and the uplift to be spent nationally rather than just to Scotland. Everything has changed since December 12th get used to it. We have the English Nationalist Party incorporating Wales now in power ! Lechyd da !

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnett_formula

 

[Nigel Garvie]

4 hours ago, stevenl said:

Isn't part of the cry for Scottish independence the same cry for nostalgia that dominates brexit? Good old days are not coming back.

Interesting point, but rather imaginative interpretation of what I said. 

Some degree of nostalgia , is natural to all of us older TV posters. There are indeed things I miss from the Scotland of my teenage years, but it is really my teenage years and my 20s, themselves that I miss most (The bits I was unstoned/sober enough to remember now). 

 

I agree that a sad cornerstone of Brexit is to go back to the Britain of our youth.

HOWEVER:-

I have no desire for an independent Scotland to go back to the past, that is impossible anyway.  We are looking to make a better future for our families and friends in forward looking, internationalist, immigrant friendly (Even English!!!), decent society, with socialist (But not looney left for most) values. Probably best to call them social values. 

 

The foul grossness of Bojo and his toff scum followers fill us with horror, a view shared by decent people all over the world

 

Nostalgia is not what it used to be - as they say. Indeed .. "You were lucky.....when I were young............etc

[Neeranam]

2 hours ago, vogie said:

You are not being held in our Union against your will, remember you had a vote on it and the Scottish people decided they prefered to be in our Union, there is evidence to say that still is the case.

If I can just re-iterate, it is only the Scots Nationalists that want yet another referendum, the majority of the Scots do not. Would it be fair to say that the minority trying to dictate to the majority is vastly unfair and indeed unjust.

We were forced into the Union. Don't believe what your English history teachers told you.

The referendum was a joke with all the English propaganda, BBC holding back important news, etc.

You should be a politician. When you can't answer a question, you ignore it.

To remind to, it was do you think an Israeli is xenophobic if he dislikes Germans?

Quite a straightforward yes or no.

 

 

[Rookiescot]

6 minutes ago, URMySunshine said:

Boris will only let you have a referendum if he thinks No would walk it since I don't think that will happen then why should he add to the cauldron more issues when Brexit is more than enough to be going on with for the moment. And since he owes nothing electrorally to the Scots seeing impotent outrage from them will play well to his new Tories in the north and help him consolidate his power. Unless the Scots are prepared to have ongoing mass civil disobedience north of the border a la Catalans then I think you can wave goodbye to indyref2 for the remainder of the parliament. Until Ms Sturgeon changes her tune I would expect the Scots to be punished for their continuing impertinence through generous levys and the like. Expect the Barnett Agreement to be examined and the uplift to be spent nationally rather than just to Scotland. Everything has changed since December 12th get used to it. We have the English Nationalist Party incorporating Wales now in power ! Lechyd da !

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnett_formula

 

When the section 30 is refused for the reasons you outline above then expect the legal challenge to start. Its already being crowdfunded. (Cant use money from the Scottish government for some reason or another)

It will eventually reach the UN if it has to.

All the while Scotlands views being dismissed by a toff in number 10 will be the best recruiting drive that independence could ever ask for. 

[Neeranam]

On 12/16/2019 at 6:28 AM, colinneil said:

Scotland held a referendum, and the people voted to stay.

Sturgeon thinks she is another Maggie, but she is not, just a glory seeker.

This situation is just the same as Brexit, we dont like the result so we want another referendum, maybe this time get a result we want.

Things change. In a few years, the United Kingdom of England and Wales should be allowed  a referendum about joining the EU. Good luck with that. Do you think one referendum should last for centuries?

[jayboy]

1 hour ago, Nigel Garvie said:

The foul grossness of Bojo and his toff scum followers fill us with horror, a view shared by decent people all over the world

It's not only the semi literate boorishness of this statement but also its massive stupidity.It was not the "toff scum " that won the election for the Tories but ordinary working people.Indeed in London at least the well educated/upper middle class were on the whole Labour supporters.There is also a large constituency of Scottish conservatives who would be surprised to hear themselves described as Tory scum or indecent people.

[vogie]

Did anyone watch PMQs when Ian Blackford was boringly blethering about something boring and Boris was looking at his mobile phone, Blackford said something like, 'it is not a good look to see the Prime Minister playing with his phone rather than listening to the demands of the SNP' .................to which Boris replied "well say something interesting then"????????????

[jayboy]

2 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Of course not, but I never suggested that. In order to effectively campaign, first there needs to be a referendum. That is step 1.

 

What constitutes massive demand in your book? 

 

By the same premise, they could equally be hurt on those marginals. It is a risky strategy to bank your electoral success solely upon resolute partisanship of the voters. 

 

 

I guess they are in a no-win situation here then; damned if they do, damned if they don't. Cynical, you say?

1.Come off it.The SNP want independence and most Scots at present do not.Parse that how you like. (I agree Johnson miscalculating could change all that.Also Sturgeon is by some distance the most talented politician in the UK.But she has some formidable problems ahead)

 

2.Massive demand can be defined many ways.I would suggest about 75% or more.

 

3.But the fact remains FPTP favours the Nats.

 

4.I agree.It was canny to burnish progressive credentials with support for electoral reform.But yes not an easy choice.

[stevenl]

8 minutes ago, jayboy said:

1.Come off it.The SNP want independence and most Scots at present do not.Parse that how you like. (I agree Johnson miscalculating could change all that.Also Sturgeon is by some distance the most talented politician in the UK.But she has some formidable problems ahead)

 

2.Massive demand can be defined many ways.I would suggest about 75% or more.

 

3.But the fact remains FPTP favours the Nats.

 

4.I agree.It was canny to burnish progressive credentials with support for electoral reform.But yes not an easy choice.

So by massive demand the Scots don't want independence was your claim. Are those the same Scots that almost in majority voted for independence just 3 years ago? So according to you brexit, massivily voted against by Scots, has changed their opinion towards staying in the union with a massive swing?