Taking Thai wife to France

[Harveyboy]

Hello guys I've posted on here before about wanting to take my wife and her 7 year son with me to France for a 2 week holiday  Nightmare. Every corner I turn seems to put up another I'm nos resulting to using Agents Asking anything from 20... 50 thousand   I'm English live in France Schengan  keeps popping up as a free visa but Nothing seems free here HELP urgently Required   Easiest Cheapest way to take my family... Disney land is waiting

For my sons  thanks.. A very frustrated farang..... 

[Pi Tao]

https://fr.tlscontact.com/th/BKK/index.php?l=en

[bkk6060]

Agents can assist with the application.  But, they cannot influence foreign embassies or Visa applications.

Different then here. ????

[Donutz]

For as long as the UK is an  EU/EEA member,  see the instructions on a free Schengen visa via an accelerated and simplified procedure.  These should be available at both the embassy's website and also at the optional external service provider who  TLS.

 

- https://th.ambafrance.org/Applying-for-a-French-visa-in-Thailand

 

As explained in the Schengen sticky,  her passport, a  copy of your passport , a statement that she as Thai national joins you the Britosh EU national on a trip to France should be enough.  Throw in the optional flight and/or hotel reservation.  These are technically not required for the simplified procedure but it makes lots of visa staff happy. Don't forget to include evidence if her family relation (by marriage,  thus a marriage certificate) and you should be all good to go to fill in the (online it seems) visa application form.

 

Visa travel reason: indicate  'other' and write 'joining EU spouse on a trip to France'. 

[Momofarang]

4 hours ago, Donutz said:

For as long as the UK is an  EU/EEA member,  see the instructions on a free Schengen visa via an accelerated and simplified procedure.  These should be available at both the embassy's website and also at the optional external service provider who  TLS.

 

- https://th.ambafrance.org/Applying-for-a-French-visa-in-Thailand

 

As explained in the Schengen sticky,  her passport, a  copy of your passport , a statement that she as Thai national joins you the Britosh EU national on a trip to France should be enough.  Throw in the optional flight and/or hotel reservation.  These are technically not required for the simplified procedure but it makes lots of visa staff happy. Don't forget to include evidence if her family relation (by marriage,  thus a marriage certificate) and you should be all good to go to fill in the (online it seems) visa application form.

 

Visa travel reason: indicate  'other' and write 'joining EU spouse on a trip to France'. 

Britain has never been a Schengen state, maybe this has some importance here? And Brexit is next month, isn't.

[overherebc]

1 hour ago, Momofarang said:

Britain has never been a Schengen state, maybe this has some importance here? And Brexit is next month, isn't.

I would reckon a lot may depend on how the EU embassies react when 'leave' happens. Will it be deal or no deal. Nothing should really change 'in law' until the end of 2020 at the earliest.

UK nationals after the end of 2020 may or may not require a visa to visit the EU and will that change the circumstances for a spouse who is not a UK national.

If 2019 is the year of confusion just wait til next year.

[Donutz]

5 hours ago, Momofarang said:

Britain has never been a Schengen state, maybe this has some importance here? And Brexit is next month, isn't.

No, that's irrelevant.  What matters is EU directive 2004/38 on freedom of movement.  That directive applies to all.EU/EEA members.  So for now the rules for a free visa with minimum hassle still apply. It might be over soon depending on when and how Brexit goes (and thus if directive 2004/38 still applies or not).

[vogie]

I am a Brit that lived in France for about 5 years, I came to Thailand and we married, I returned to France and she had no problem getting a Tourist Visa from the French Embassy in Thailand to visit me, I think it was for 3 months.

[Kalasin Jo]

10 hours ago, Donutz said:

For as long as the UK is an  EU/EEA member,  see the instructions on a free Schengen visa via an accelerated and simplified procedure.  These should be available at both the embassy's website and also at the optional external service provider who  TLS.

 

- https://th.ambafrance.org/Applying-for-a-French-visa-in-Thailand

 

As explained in the Schengen sticky,  her passport, a  copy of your passport , a statement that she as Thai national joins you the Britosh EU national on a trip to France should be enough.  Throw in the optional flight and/or hotel reservation.  These are technically not required for the simplified procedure but it makes lots of visa staff happy. Don't forget to include evidence if her family relation (by marriage,  thus a marriage certificate) and you should be all good to go to fill in the (online it seems) visa application form.

 

Visa travel reason: indicate  'other' and write 'joining EU spouse on a trip to France'. 

You now have to register on a dedicated French government website (English version available) first which when you do and complete the questions tells you the documents you need.  If your marriage was in  France and your marriage certificate French no problem. If you married in Thailand you will need to have the original Thai  marriage certificate, children's birth certificates and official translations in French or English legalised first by Thai MOFA and then the British Embassy Bangkok. This will cost you and is time consuming. Touts for translation agencies lurk at MOFA and are quick but expect MOFA to reject, highlighting translation errors which your tout/agent will correct ( more money). It comes back finally with MOFA stamps and signature. It is these which are legalised by the British Embassy, requiring an appointment and a fee when we did it. It's a fair bit of hassle, alot of time and some expense, but only then will the French accept it.  You will also need a Declaration Sur l' Honneur from yourself confirming your French residency, that your marriage is continuing, that you will be responsible in every respect for your wife and children and inviting them to join you in France. Indeed there is no fee for this type of visa "EU famille", but you still have to take an appointment with TLS Contact Bangkok and they charge you an administration fee. Also they are picky about photos and will probably have to use their photo booths ..

 

And then there is the effect of Brexit to consider! Although my wife was granted an EU famille visa, multiple entry, valid 1 year back in August...her 4th such visa.

 

If you are only making one trip to France then perhaps tourist visas are the answer but then there is a visa fee and you will have to show booked flights, adequate travel insurance, sufficient money for the trip, booked hotels or if staying in your home in France an attestation d'acceuil from your Mairie ( fee).

 

It ain't so easy first time around but fully legalised documentation is good for life, don't lose it!!

 

PM me if you want more info.

[Donutz]

While you now may need to make an account for a French application, the process remains as explained in the Schengen sticky. Those are simply EU rules. Though some embassy staff don't know the rules or break them willingly because they think the simplified EU/EEA family route is too easy...  A quick reminder of the rules and e-mailing the European Commission in CC (  JUST-CITIZENSHIP {at} ec.europa.eu  ) might wake them up. There is also the EU Ombudsman service Solvit.

 

The French can only:

- ask for you to make an account

- filled out visa application form (clearly indicate that it's an application where a Thai joins their EU family member).

- the passport of the Thai national

- copy of the passport of the EU national

- supply evidence of the family relation. Generally the marriage certificate. The embassy may request a legalized translation in a language they can read.

- make evident that the Thai travels with the EU national. A written and signed note should be sufficient as there is no legal definition on what sufficient evidence is. But throw in a travel reservation, that is more than they can ask for  and should please them.

- they can not ask for any papers regarding accommodation/residency in France,  cannot ask proof of  funds, cannot ask for travel insurance etc.

- they must give you direct access to the embassy. Hell TLS is still 100% optional by the Schengen rules, for ALL applicatans untill 2-2-20. From that date onward EU nationals should still be granted special privilege (direct acces). An appointment might be required and must be given ASAP (max 2 weeks). 

- IF and only IF you voluntarily chose to got to TLS/VFS instead, then a service charge applies, as you chose to use this optional service over access to the embassy (I know, embassies push people to their external service provider but untill 2-2-20 any applicant can bypass TLS/VFS and after that date special applicants can still bypass TLS/VFS. The embassy may not like it, may need a reminder of the rules. EU Home affairs and Solvit are there to assist you.

 

 

The Schengen rules will change a bit per 2-2-20 but the update Handbook says this for applications of family of EU/EEA nationals: (old version for the rules untill 1-2-2020 see the sticky topic)

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4.1 Visa fee

No visa fee can be charged.

 

4.2 Outsourcing of the collection of applications

As family members should not pay any fee when submitting the application, they cannot be obliged to obtain an appointment via a premium call line or via an external provider whose services are charged to the applicant (service fees). Family members must be allowed to lodge their application directly at the consulate without any costs. This possibility must be genuine and effective. If an appointment system is nevertheless in place (either for the external provider or for a meeting at the consulate), separate call lines (at ordinary local tariff) to the consulate should be made available to family members respecting standards comparable to those of ‘premium lines’, i.e. the availability of such lines should be comparable to those in place for other categories of applicants and an appointment must be allocated without delay. Where family members decide not to make use of their right to lodge their application directly at the consulate but to use the extra services, they should pay for these services. If applicable, service fees must duly respect the requirements of Article 17(4) of the Visa Code. In any event, external providers provide their services under the responsibility of the Member State that contracted them. Member States are particularly responsible for the quality of information provided by external service providers on their websites and when communicating with the general public. The information provided on the websites must be comprehensive, correct and easily accessible.

 

4.3 Granting every facility

Member States shall grant third-country family members of EU citizens falling under the Directive every facility to obtain the necessary visa. This notion must be interpreted as ensuring that Member States take all appropriate measures to ensure fulfilment of the obligations arising from the right of free movement and afford to such visa applicants the best conditions to obtain the entry visa.

 

4.4 Processing time

The visas must be issued as soon as possible and on the basis of an accelerated procedure and the procedures put in place by Member States (with or without outsourcing) must make it possible to distinguish between the rights of a third-country national who is a family member of an EU citizen and those of other third-country nationals. The former must be treated more favourably than the latter. Processing times for a visa application lodged by a third-country national who is a family member of an EU citizen covered by the Directive going beyond 15 days should be exceptional and duly justified.

 

4.5 Types of visa issued to family members of EU citizens (including those intending to stay for more than 90 days in any 180-day period)

Article 5(2) of the Directive provides that third-country nationals who are family members of EU citizens may only be required to have an entry visa in accordance with Regulation (EC) No 539/2001. Family members’ right to stay is derived from the right of the EU citizen. Member States shall issue short stay visas to non-EU family members of mobile EU citizens28 . To reflect the privileged situation of third-country family members of EU citizens, Member States should not take into consideration the family member’s economic situation in his or her country of origin or his or her genuine intention to leave the territory of the Member States before the expiry of the visa applied for, when applying Article 24(2) of the Visa Code regarding the issuing of a multiple-entry visa.

 

4.6 Burden of proof

The burden of proof applicable in the framework of the visa application under the Directive is twofold:

1) Firstly, it is up to the visa applicant to prove that he is a beneficiary of the Directive. He must be able to provide documentary evidence described below in point 4.7 as he must be able to present evidence to support his claim. If he fails to provide such evidence or provides no evidence at all, the consulate may conclude that the applicant is not entitled to the specific treatment under the Directive.

2) Secondly, once the status of the beneficiary of the Directive is satisfactorily established, the national authorities may refuse the visa application: a. on the grounds that the visa applicant is a genuine, present and sufficiently serious threat to public policy, public security or public health; or b. in the event of abuse or fraud. In the cases mentioned in paragraph 2), the burden of proof lies with the national authorities as they must be able to present evidence to support their claim that the visa applicant (who has presented sufficient evidence to attest that he meets the criteria in the Directive) should nevertheless not be issued with an entry visa. The authorities must be able to build a convincing case while respecting all the safeguards of the Directive. The decision refusing the visa application on grounds of public policy, public security or public health or on grounds of abuse or fraud must be notified in writing, fully justified (e.g. by listing all legal and material aspects taken into account when concluding that a marriage is a marriage of convenience or that a presented birth certificate is fake).

 

4.7 Supporting documents

In order to prove that the applicant has the right to be issued with an entry visa under the Directive, he must establish that he is a beneficiary of the Directive.

 

The status of beneficiary of the Directive is established by presenting documents relevant for the purposes of the three questions referred to in point 1, i.e. proving that:

a) there is an EU citizen from whom the visa applicant can derive any rights The burden of proof is discharged by presenting evidence as regards the EU citizen’s identity and nationality (e.g. a valid travel document)29 .

b) the visa applicant is a family member of such an EU citizen The burden of proof is discharged by presenting evidence as regards the family member’s identity (e.g. a valid travel document), their family ties (e.g. a marriage certificate, birth certificate, etc.) and, if applicable, proof of meeting the other conditions of Articles 2(2) or 3(2) of the Directive (e.g. evidence relating to dependency, serious health grounds, durability of partnerships, etc.).

c) the visa applicant will accompany or join an EU citizen in the host Member State.

 

4.7.1 Joining an EU citizen

If the EU citizen is already resident or present in the host Member State, the burden of proof is discharged by presenting evidence of the EU citizen’s residence or presence in the host Member State (e.g. a valid registration certificate issued by the host Member State). The level of evidence depends on the nature of the EU citizen’s residence in the host Member State: (....)

 

4.7.2 Accompanying an EU citizen

This is the case when the EU citizen is not yet resident or present in the Member State of destination but will travel there in the future. Given that there can be no principled evidence of the EU citizen’s residence or presence in the Member State of destination (as the move will take place later), Member States cannot oblige visa applicants to provide ‘evidence’ of future travel (requirements relating to travel or accommodation arrangements do not amount to proof of future travel – such arrangements only show that travel or accommodation was paid for in advance, not that the travel will actually happen). Against this background, Member States should merely ask for confirmation that the EU citizen will travel to the Member State of destination and process the visa application under the assumption that the visa applicant is a beneficiary of the Directive . The veracity of this assumption can be verified later at the border when the visa holder seeks entry. In accordance with Article 30 of the Visa Code, border guards can require such visa holders to provide evidence that there actually is an EU citizen resident or present in the Member State of destination. In most cases, this will be complied with as a matter of course when the couple travels together. Failure to provide such evidence can result in refusal of entry. This ability to check is without prejudice to the Schengen Borders Code which allows border guards to check whether non-EU nationals are in possession of a valid visa (Article 6(1)(b) of the Schengen Borders Code).

 

4.7.3 General rules In addition to the rules on supporting documents set out above, several issues should be highlighted:

1) The only requirement relating to travel documents of EU citizens and their family members is that they have to be valid (Article 5(1) of the Directive).   (...) 2) It is an established principle of EU law in the area of free movement that visa applicants have the right to choose the documentary evidence by which they wish to prove that they are covered by the Directive (i.e. evidence of the family link, dependency, etc.). Member States may, however, ask for specific documents (e.g. a marriage certificate as the means of proving the existence of marriage), but should not refuse other means of proof. For example, presenting a marriage certificate is not the only acceptable means of establishing family ties.

3) A Member State may require that the relevant documents be translated where the original document is drawn up in a language that is not understood by the authorities of the Member State concerned. If there are doubts as to the authenticity of the document (e.g. concerning the issuing authority and the correctness of the data appearing on a document), a Member State may ask for the documents to be notarised, legalised or verified. However, the suspicion must be specific in that it concerns a specific document

of an individual applicant as it would be disproportionate to systematically require verification and/or legalisation of all supporting documents in all cases. 4) Family members may be required to provide additional documents only in the context of:

- determining the Member State competent for examining and deciding on an application under Article 5 of the Visa Code; or

- determining territorial competence for visa applications under Articles 6 and 7 of the Visa Code in order to establish their links with the country in which they lodge their entry visa applications.

5) Supporting documents, information and proof pursuant to the Visa Code that family members of EU citizens do not have to provide:

- documents indicating the purpose of the journey, envisaged by Article 14(1)(a) of the Visa Code31;

- documents relating to accommodation (or proof of sufficient means to cover his accommodation), envisaged by Article 14(1)(b) of the Visa Code;

- documents indicating that they possesses sufficient means of subsistence both for the duration of the intended stay and for the return to their country of origin or residence, or for the transit to a third country into which they are certain to be admitted, or that they are in a position to acquire such means lawfully, in accordance with Article 6(1)(c) and (3) of the Schengen Borders Code, envisaged by Article 14(1)(c) of the Visa Code;

- information enabling an assessment of their intention to leave the territory of the Member States before the expiry of the visa applied for, envisaged by Article 14(1)(d) of the Visa Code;

- proof of sponsorship or private accommodation, envisaged by Article 14(4) of the Visa Code; or

- proof that they are in possession of adequate and valid travel medical insurance to cover any expenses which might arise in connection with repatriation for medical reasons, urgent medical attention and/or emergency hospital treatment or death, during their stay(s) on the territory of the Member States, envisaged by Article 15 of the Visa Code. These facilities are further reflected in the exemption for family members of EU citizens from filling in the following fields of the visa application form:

(....)

 

4.8 Recognition or registration of marriages contracted abroad

As stressed in the 2009 Commission guidelines, marriages validly contracted anywhere in the world must in principle be recognised for the purpose of applying the Directive. This principle also applies to the issuance of entry visas to third-country family members of EU citizens who, as confirmed by the Court of Justice34, derive this right from the family ties only. By analogy with the closed list of supporting documents third-country family members of EU citizens have to present with their applications for a residence card under Article 10(2) of the Directive, third-country family members applying for an entry visa under the Directive have to present a ‘document attesting to the existence of a family relationship’. This means that they cannot be required to have the document or relationship first registered in the Member State of the EU citizen’s nationality. Requiring such registration amounts to an undue obstacle to the exercise of the right of free movement as it is likely to significantly delay the processing of some applications or even to make it impossible in some cases, given that some Member States do not have a system for registering foreign marriages. (...)

 

 

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etc. etc. See from about page 100 and onward.

Source: https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/sites/homeaffairs/files/what-we-do/policies/borders-and-visas/visa-policy/docs/20140709_visa_code_handbook_consolidated_en.pdf

 

via  https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/borders-and-visas/visa-policy_en

[jimn]

OP listen to Donutz he is the guru regarding this. However I will relate my experience. I have 3 times now obtained free of charge visa's. I from the Dutch embassy and 2 from the Swedish embassy in Bangkok. For travel to Europe with my Thai wife, all issued on the same day or within a few days. Yes you do require copies and translations of marriage certificate, proof of travel together etc, but its not difficult. The French embassy just play hard ball and do not follow the rules. Go to a friendly country and just say that you are visiting their country and then go where you wish, travel plans change. Its a Schengan visa so valid for all Schengan countries.

[Henryford]

How do thai people get visas to travel to Europe for say a 2 week holiday? Is it nearly impossible !!

[theoldgit]

2 hours ago, Henryford said:

How do thai people get visas to travel to Europe for say a 2 week holiday? Is it nearly impossible !!

Not impossible at all, I know a number who have, some have Western sponsors who they're travelling with and are providing financial support, and others who are able to afford such a trip themselves without relying on a partner, in either case they need to provide details of their ties to their home country and thus are likely to return home.

[Donutz]

About 97% of all Schengen visa applications are approved. Numbers per embassy vary a bit. But most refuse between 1 and 4%. Belgium and Sweden a bit more but even they do not refuse more than 10%.

See: https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/borders-and-visas/visa-policy#stats

[Harveyboy]

On 12/19/2019 at 1:27 PM, vogie said:

I am a Brit that lived in France for about 5 years, I came to Thailand and we married, I returned to France and she had no problem getting a Tourist Visa from the French Embassy in Thailand to visit me, I think it was for 3 months.

Did you go thru tls.. Can you tell me a little tks mate 

[Harveyboy]

Just now, Harveyboy said:

Did you go thru tls.. Can you tell me a little tks mate 

It's just a holiday take the kids Disney visit Paris 2 weeks so tourist visa would be fine